England - Always a bridesmaid, or overhyped?

[Big_Nige]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

You’ve just done it now. The future of the England international team is no ‘brighter’ than it ever was. We’ve crashed out in the quarter final of a World Cup when last time we made the semi’s? That’s not progress. By any definition that’s going backwards.

Look at the informative table cited above. There’s the reality.

The honest reflection of this World Cup is that we’ve failed again as an international football team. The reasons for this are manifest and manifold. But that’s where we are at. The interesting question is how do we stop this rot.
The first thing to be is honest. And ask why?

That’s a very black and white way of looking at it though?

 

Getting hammered 4-1 in the last 16 against Germany 12 years ago, Not making it out of the groups stages 8 years ago. Getting humiliated by Iceland

 

All abject failures. 
 

Narrowly losing to the current world champions, and our four best players on the night were 23 and under leads me to believe the future has the potential to be bright. 

 

I’m 40 so probably too old to be classed as a snowflake, but if appreciating the talents of a 19 year old kid like Jude Bellingham, rather than castigating him for having a losers mentality makes me entitled or easily offended then Que Sara

 

 

[Samilktray]

Colin has absolutely nailed the art of saying a lot and saying nothing at the same time 

[whoareyaaa]

I think the performance was fine especially second half we stepped it up, Maguire got caught napping but we had the chance to get back in it but we blew it... don't matter how many changes we made after that peno miss the belief was gone (bar probably Maddison getting a run after missing the pen) I can't fault Southgate. but I do think he should let someone else have a go as he clearly is not going to win us a trophy.

 

 

 

Edited 11 December 2022 by whoareyaaa

[Fox92]

9 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think mentality plays a massive part and is why teams like Italy beat us, Croatia and Iceland in recent times, stronger mentality. (Even Kane bottled it yesterday)

 

This mentality issue could be down to the players not really caring enough, mentally not strong enough or stem from a weak minded manager.

 

Kane didn't bottle it. He stepped up to take a penalty under massive pressure, that's the complete opposite of bottling it. Kane choosing not to take the penalty would have been bottling it.

 

He missed, it happens. He's not the first to miss in a massive game, I've seen great players miss pressure penalties.

 

"Bottle" is such an in word at the minute and it's a load of rubbish. People use it for any player that messes up now.

[coolhandfox]

Mentally, we find new ways to lose.

 

 

 

 

[whoareyaaa]

5 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Kane didn't bottle it. He stepped up to take a penalty under massive pressure, that's the complete opposite of bottling it. Kane choosing not to take the penalty would have been bottling it.

 

He missed, it happens. He's not the first to miss in a massive game, I've seen great players miss pressure penalties.

 

"Bottle" is such an in word at the minute and it's a load of rubbish. People use it for any player that messes up now.

Bottle it is probably the wrong word but he has blew a massive chance that could have been the difference.

Edited 11 December 2022 by whoareyaaa

[weller54]

6 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Kane didn't bottle it. He stepped up to take a penalty under massive pressure, that's the complete opposite of bottling it. Kane choosing not to take the penalty would have been bottling it.

 

He missed, it happens. He's not the first to miss in a massive game, I've seen great players miss pressure penalties.

 

"Bottle" is such an in word at the minute and it's a load of rubbish. People use it for any player that messes up now.

Kane has history though!

[Fox92]

Just now, weller54 said:

Kane has history though!

Not missing a penalty in that situtation for us, he hasn't.

 

You just take an issue up with him being you have some weird agenda against Spurs.

 

Without his goals we wouldn't even be in the finals of the World Cup.

[Fox92]

2 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

Bottle it is probably the wrong word but he has blew a massive chance.

He has blew a chance but that's football. If people want everything right, everything as they think it should happen, then they probably shouldn't watch football.

 

I've seen Pirlo miss a penalty in the CL final. I've seen highlights of Baggio in a World Cup final. Kane won't be the first or the last.

[foxes1988]

7 hours ago, Miquel The Work Geordie said:

I don't think we get carried away any more than any other "big" nation after some good results, do we? People just take the tabloid headlines and assume it's indicative of the whole country; I'm sure L'Equipe, Bild or Marca have spouted some absolute shite in their time that would seem arrogant.

 

As it is I think most of England's support appreciate where we are in terms of strengths and weaknesses. And I really don't think it's overhyping us to say we *could've* won this tournament, of course we could've. We aren't minnows, however you want to carve it up.

All countries are the same. 'Big' countries that is. English being so well spoken around the world and our media covering the biggest league in the world mean that other countries tend to follow our media a little more then other nations. I think every nations fans and media get ahead of themselves abit but its a lazy cliche to say English = arrogance.

 

The vast vast vast majority in England thort wed get knocked out to France in the quarters and we turned out to be correct so you could say we were realistic in our expectations.  There's no way you could say we were overhyped for this world cup.

 

I think we are generally just under the top teams most the time and I think bar maybe 1998 -2006 were generally not expecting unrealistic performances from them. I do think there is a bit of a mentality problem with us that we are slowly starting to deal with now. Hopefully continue to do so.

[foxes1988]

Think sometimes when you play pretty well and get knocked out you can tend to over think/analyse it. I think that is the case here.

 

Back when we got knocked out to Croatia and lost to Italy in the final it left alot of question marks on England but this time I think we're all far better of to say the better team won we didn't quite do enough but we were only a few percentage points off and move on.

[whoareyaaa]

5 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

He has blew a chance but that's football. If people want everything right, everything as they think it should happen, then they probably shouldn't watch football.

 

I've seen Pirlo miss a penalty in the CL final. I've seen highlights of Baggio in a World Cup final. Kane won't be the first or the last.

If we want to win World cups then you have to take your chances, and he didn't and that;s why we are out.

Edited 11 December 2022 by whoareyaaa

[shen]

Looking in from the outside, there is definitely some overhyping going on. I feel it's been there since the PL formed at least.

It's understandable - the wealthiest league that's able to attract some of the best and most vaunted players and managers, while English players are often at the core of the top clubs - it raises expectations. 

 

The 'golden' generation of 1998/2002 is a case in point. On paper it looked like the best squad at the tournament along with Brazil and France.

 

I never got the feeling that England had a clear footballing identity - until the last Euros. Always ponderous in possession with little fluidity or movement. Physically superior, but technically and tactically inferior to the other major nations.

 

With better tactical and squad management, this team can make finals regularly. 

[Fox92]

Just now, whoareyaaa said:

If we want to win World cups then you have to take your chances, and he didn't.

Well, obviously.

 

But a lot of players have to do things to.  It's not just down to a missed penalty.

 

Our defending was terrible for both goals.

[foxes1988]

1 hour ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think the performance was fine especially second half we stepped it up, Maguire got caught napping but we had the chance to get back in it but we blew it... don't matter how many changes we made after that peno miss the belief was gone (bar probably Maddison getting a run after missing the pen) I can't fault Southgate. but I do think he should let someone else have a go as he clearly is not going to win us a trophy.

 

 

 

I would argue it was Stones who got caught. He wasn't marking anyone. Positioning from him was poor. Maguire just came over to try and cover for him

[whoareyaaa]

Just now, Fox92 said:

Well, obviously.

 

But a lot of players have to do things to.  It's not just down to a missed penalty.

 

Our defending was terrible for both goals.

Doesn't matter that was the chance to turn the game again the French heads would have gone we was looking great second half, get into ET and anything can happen.

[Hammo]

3 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

We perform to par and act like it's an achievement because we've performed below par in previous tournaments. Nobody in France would've been "proud" if they'd lost to England yesterday and had more shots despite how good England's side supposedly is.

 

Until we start acting like a top team we will be a bridesmaid.

Yes, this fashionable “proud of the players” stuff after they have lost a huge match (again) is such a cop out. It makes me cringe.

 

The management and media say it presumably because they don’t want the players to feel bad about themselves for losing, or are afraid of openly acknowledging the truth of crushing disappointment - which for me kind of highlights a mentality issue.

 

I mean, even Wales were apparently “proud” of their players - and their team was utter garbage at this World Cup.

 

Croatia and Morocco should be proud of what they have achieved in Qatar. Maybe Japan too. And Australia. As for the rest, I don’t think so.

[Foxdiamond]

Falling behind in the game twice meant it was always going to be tough. Having got back to 1-1 we seemed to lose the grip regained. France nearly scored twice before they actually did for their second. Feeling sorry for themselves is not the way to instill the right mentality. 

[weller54]

35 minutes ago, Fox92 said:

Not missing a penalty in that situtation for us, he hasn't.

 

You just take an issue up with him being you have some weird agenda against Spurs.

 

Without his goals we wouldn't even be in the finals of the World Cup.

Kane hasn't won anything in his long career... there's a reason for that IMO.

 

[SkidsFox]

1 hour ago, whoareyaaa said:

I think the performance was fine especially second half we stepped it up, Maguire got caught napping but we had the chance to get back in it but we blew it... don't matter how many changes we made after that peno miss the belief was gone (bar probably Maddison getting a run after missing the pen) I can't fault Southgate. but I do think he should let someone else have a go as he clearly is not going to win us a trophy.

 

 

 

I feel that some criticism of Maguire has been harsh in the past, but this game has shown why he shouldn't be a regular for England. You simply don't let a player like Giroud have a free header. Then, when Pickford pulls off a wonder save, you then give Giroud another free go to score a goal. That's what knocked us out. The missed penalty merely stopped our chance of a decent comeback.

[Tommy Fresh]

6 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Kane hasn't won anything in his long career... there's a reason for that IMO.

 

Kleberson won a World Cup, but he was sh**

[whoareyaaa]

6 minutes ago, SkidsFox said:

I feel that some criticism of Maguire has been harsh in the past, but this game has shown why he shouldn't be a regular for England. You simply don't let a player like Giroud have a free header. Then, when Pickford pulls off a wonder save, you then give Giroud another free go to score a goal. That's what knocked us out. The missed penalty merely stopped our chance of a decent comeback.

True we should never have gave that 2nd goal away in the first place way too much room but we still blew the chance of getting back into it by missing the peno.

[Fox92]

10 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Kane hasn't won anything in his long career... there's a reason for that IMO.

 

If you’re judging players on what they’ve won, or not won, then you probably shouldn’t watch football.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

21 minutes ago, weller54 said:

Kane hasn't won anything in his long career... there's a reason for that IMO.

 

Yes, there's a reason. The reason is that he plays for Spurs. And England.

[Mike Oxlong]

Elvis Hammond has won the World Club Championship 

Edited 11 December 2022 by Mike Oxlong