Tactics Under Maresca

[Finnegan]

3 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

I wonder if any one has done an analysis on how similar, or different, is Enzoball compared to Pep’s style?

 

In this: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66868576

 

He mentioned he cannot copy Pep because Pep is so good and a genius - suppose that means Pep is always thinking and changing - and that you need to make your own ideas.

 

He was only there for a year as one of Pep’s assistants, so I wonder how much Enzoball is actually his own ideas and how much is copied from Pep.

 

I hope what he says is true though. You need to have your own ideas to adapt to the type of players you have and the evolving nature of the game. Us fans talk about how we want to be patient and play a way to tire out the opponents so we can score late goals - if we can talk about it opposition team managers will one day find a way to counter that. So we always need to be ready to evolve and think one step ahead.

 

Promising from Enzo so far.

 

 

 

This is purely anecdotal, I've not really studied a passing map of both us and Man City. But one thing that does strike me by purely the "eye test" is that we play more vertically through the centre than a typical Guardiola style.

 

We actually reminds me a bit of Ajax under Ten Hag almost more than a Pep side. 

 

Pep uses his width a lot more to build. A very typical way for Man City to start their moves is to play it to the feet of their wide players and you'll find that quite often their first touch will just be a pass straight back to Stones or whoever, they'll keep playing these wall passes stretching from side to side to expand the opponent and make spaces. 

 

We do want our wide players to hold width but they do so much higher up the pitch, we aren't really looking for them to come down and get involved as much in the build up play. We love them to be on the shoulder, Mavididi in particular is often our most advanced player. 

 

We progress the ball then centrally, playing incisive and firmly struck passes between defenders cannoned in to a first receiver who will lay it off for the third man to beat the press and spring forward. 

 

This is far more similar to how Ajax used to play with De Licht, De Jong and VDB making those combinations right through the middle of the park and Neres getting super high down that left hand side to look to be in behind. 

 

It's not a clone of Ajax either, there's obvious differences, the shape is completely different, it's definitely very much its own thing. I like it, it feels like Enzo has his own clear identity and I'm a fan of that. 

 

[ThumbsUp]

I'm reading a lot about how our style "wears people out", but I wondered if anyone can expand on this. We're covering far more ground than our opposition according to the stats, so that can't be the reason why it's exhausting the opposition. Is it to do with the mental game of not having the ball? Forcing more sprints from opponents? Or something else entirely?

[StriderHiryu]

37 minutes ago, ThumbsUp said:

I'm reading a lot about how our style "wears people out", but I wondered if anyone can expand on this. We're covering far more ground than our opposition according to the stats, so that can't be the reason why it's exhausting the opposition. Is it to do with the mental game of not having the ball? Forcing more sprints from opponents? Or something else entirely?

Good question!

 

• Even if opponents aren't running as much as we are, they will still get tired.
• One of the first things to go when you are tired is your concentration and ability to make the right decisions.
• Our team might also be tired, or even more tired, but if the opposition is making block after block and pinned back, their mistakes are more catastrophic than ours.
  • We do also make mistakes due to tiredness. See Faes getting away with one late one against Preston.
• We change a lot of players after an hour who are fresh against those tired legs.
  • We also often give them new problems to deal with, for example against Preston, Ndidi started as the left sided 8, and KDH as the right. But after an hour they swapped over. For their defenders a simple thing like now having to force their direct opponent down the other way gives them another thing to think about, and they are already tired having to concentrate.
  • We move wingers around too, Fatawu started on the left but ended on the right for example.
• Overall, it is the mental side that we tire out, as you've written!

[Finnegan]

42 minutes ago, ThumbsUp said:

I'm reading a lot about how our style "wears people out", but I wondered if anyone can expand on this. We're covering far more ground than our opposition according to the stats, so that can't be the reason why it's exhausting the opposition. Is it to do with the mental game of not having the ball? Forcing more sprints from opponents? Or something else entirely?

 

You've pretty much answered your own question. Physically, it's going to depend how they play. Preston for example sit back quite passively in a lower block that's not going to be overwhelmingly exhausting. But if you go man for man and try to press us intensely on the front foot and chase the ball that's obviously going to be a lot successive sprints. 

 

They're professional footballers, they could probably all jog about at a leisurely pace for ninety minutes but having to make much more intense runs frequently chasing the ball / man is going to take it out of sides. 

 

But equally, yeah, it's also going to fatigue a side having to concentrate solidly for 90 odd minutes too. Preston was all about this. You keep probing away and eventually there's a mistake. It's intensely difficult being perfect for the whole game. 

 

[Dan LCFC]

I do think Vestergaard to Coady is a downgrade in terms of playing through the lines and whatnot, Coady's decent at diagonals but I think for the shorter balls Vestergaard is as good as you'll get in this division which is why I'd probably give him the nod tomorrow. I'm not sure Coady's is injury related either I just don't think it's a major strength.

[coolhandfox]

1 minute ago, Dan LCFC said:

I do think Vestergaard to Coady is a downgrade in terms of playing through the lines and whatnot, Coady's decent at diagonals but I think for the shorter balls Vestergaard is as good as you'll get in this division which is why I'd probably give him the nod tomorrow. I'm not sure Coady's is injury related either I just don't think it's a major strength.

Maybe just let him get fully fit before you judge him. 

[Dan LCFC]

5 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Maybe just let him get fully fit before you judge him. 

I've seen him outside of Leicester games. Not having Vestergaard's shorter passing isn't necessarily a criticism, it's a big strength of Vestergaard's.

[honeybradger]

8 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

I do think Vestergaard to Coady is a downgrade in terms of playing through the lines and whatnot, Coady's decent at diagonals but I think for the shorter balls Vestergaard is as good as you'll get in this division which is why I'd probably give him the nod tomorrow. I'm not sure Coady's is injury related either I just don't think it's a major strength.

I remember watching Coady playing for England and his ball playing ability looked exceptional. I think when he's fully fit his ball playing will be a lot better.

[Finnegan]

24 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Maybe just let him get fully fit before you judge him. 

 

I dont think it's offensive to Coady to suggest he isn't as good as Vestergaard at picking out that vertical pass in to midfield. 

 

Few centre backs in world football are and I mean that completely seriously. 

 

Whatever flaws Vestergaard has to his game, he's got great feet and a fantastic pass. I can see why we bought him even though I think how Rodgers chose to deploy him (in a flat four with slow protection in front of him and a not exactly rapid partner beside him) was beyond naive. 

 

[coolhandfox]

48 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

I've seen him outside of Leicester games. Not having Vestergaard's shorter passing isn't necessarily a criticism, it's a big strength of Vestergaard's.

Apologies I think I have PTSD from Foxestalk members writing of players after a game. 

 

I just want to wait to see what Enzo and his system bring out in Coady. It has liberated Vestiguarrd and brought out the best in him. 

 

Whilst I agree Vesty has been great at vertical passes into midfield this season, I'm not sure we saw him do as good a job in the PL with us or Southampton, and I can't comment on his time in the Bundesliga. It is much easier at this level with our setup where we are looking to hit the CM with a vertical bounce pass all the time. 

 

Coady hasn't played at this level for five years, and Vestiguard has never played at this level, I think to compare apples with apples you have to see them both at this level for a decent sample size. 

 

I'd pick Vestiguarrd tomorrow, as I've already said earlier in the thread. 

 

27 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I dont think it's offensive to Coady to suggest he isn't as good as Vestergaard at picking out that vertical pass in to midfield. 

 

Few centre backs in world football are and I mean that completely seriously. 

 

Whatever flaws Vestergaard has to his game, he's got great feet and a fantastic pass. I can see why we bought him even though I think how Rodgers chose to deploy him (in a flat four with slow protection in front of him and a not exactly rapid partner beside him) was beyond naive. 

 

That's a big statement. I wondered whether that could be born out by any stats, but he has always had great feet and passing ability. 

 

It is a joke, really that we have the likes of Him, Coady and Faes at this level.

 

The most frustrating part of our recruitment was watching us buy the likes of Vestergaard and Souttar and play them in a manner which set them up to fail. 

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, coolhandfox said:

That's a big statement

 

It is and I paused after writing but then I thought about it and even at the highest level there aren't floods of centre backs picking out the kind of passes consistently that Vestergaard does. 

 

I imagine the likes of Stones could it just isn't in the game plan as such but he's a rare talent. 

 

Don't get me wrong, a CB still has to defend and I have anxieties about Vestergaard being found out next year when we go back up. We could do with finding a good young ball playing CB who can pick up that mantle for a few years, ideally with a turn of pace too. But you can't really fault his passing. 

[coolhandfox]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

It is and I paused after writing but then I thought about it and even at the highest level there aren't floods of centre backs picking out the kind of passes consistently that Vestergaard does. 

 

I imagine the likes of Stones could it just isn't in the game plan as such but he's a rare talent. 

 

Don't get me wrong, a CB still has to defend and I have anxieties about Vestergaard being found out next year when we go back up. We could do with finding a good young ball playing CB who can pick up that mantle for a few years, ideally with a turn of pace too. But you can't really fault his passing. 

Stones was the one that sprung to mind.

 

I'd agree. We do need to bring that young CB, I can still see Vestergaard moving on in the summer 31 out of contract, with maybe one has one last big payday available to him. 

 

To be fair to Enzo we have managed to reduce the amount of time Vestergaard has been exposed to a foot race as the system has bed in. 

[SixtiesFox]

Great discussion. Talking Enzoball is such a refreshing change after two years of turgid Rodgersball. Enzo is establishing a clear identity in terms of how he wants the team to play. The players are buying in and as a result he is getting the best out of them. So many have either improved or been rejuvenated after being undermined or frozen out by Rodgers. As fans we can now get really excited about the future of our club after the damage Rodgers inflicted. What a remarkable turn around. Well done Enzo!

[ts_1010]

5 hours ago, ThumbsUp said:

I'm reading a lot about how our style "wears people out", but I wondered if anyone can expand on this. We're covering far more ground than our opposition according to the stats, so that can't be the reason why it's exhausting the opposition. Is it to do with the mental game of not having the ball? Forcing more sprints from opponents? Or something else entirely?

I'll stick to the physical side of it as there are a few responses already.

 

Two things that haven't really been mentioned here explicitly, are speed of passing and always looking to gain numerical superiority.

 

With our changing passing speeds from slow to fast were trying to find the right moment to advance suddenly up the pitch. Sometimes after beating the press, sometimes after moving the defensive team around.

 

If we have blown their formation with our passing, the only thing a defending side can really do is sprint back into a more defensive shape. That can be really hard for the individual player after working hard on a press, or 40+ passes trying to keep someone covered. This can cause midfielders and attackers and fullbacks to "redline" and tire quickly.

 

The other issue is the numerical superiority. We keep trying to force that extra player advantage wherever we can. See @StriderHiryu and his analysis of this game as a key example.

 

If weve got one more player than them in an area then one Preston player has to cover two people. Or the whole defensive unit has to shuffle across following the ball. That takes work. You have to be fast on the shuffle to avoid being caught marking nobody.

 

It's the burst of high impact work that we force opposing teams to do that really hurts them. It's like they are doing HIIT training.

[blaaklint]

14 minutes ago, ts_1010 said:

I'll stick to the physical side of it as there are a few responses already.

 

Two things that haven't really been mentioned here explicitly, are speed of passing and always looking to gain numerical superiority.

 

With our changing passing speeds from slow to fast were trying to find the right moment to advance suddenly up the pitch. Sometimes after beating the press, sometimes after moving the defensive team around.

 

If we have blown their formation with our passing, the only thing a defending side can really do is sprint back into a more defensive shape. That can be really hard for the individual player after working hard on a press, or 40+ passes trying to keep someone covered. This can cause midfielders and attackers and fullbacks to "redline" and tire quickly.

 

The other issue is the numerical superiority. We keep trying to force that extra player advantage wherever we can. See @StriderHiryu and his analysis of this game as a key example.

 

If weve got one more player than them in an area then one Preston player has to cover two people. Or the whole defensive unit has to shuffle across following the ball. That takes work. You have to be fast on the shuffle to avoid being caught marking nobody.

 

It's the burst of high impact work that we force opposing teams to do that really hurts them. It's like they are doing HIIT training.

I think the mental component is possibly more important even. Simply, it's depressing to be the team without the ball for a whole game, even if that's your game plan. You win the ball, clear it and then it just comes straight back at you over and over again.

[ts_1010]

22 minutes ago, blaaklint said:

I think the mental component is possibly more important even. Simply, it's depressing to be the team without the ball for a whole game, even if that's your game plan. You win the ball, clear it and then it just comes straight back at you over and over again.

I agree, I wasn't trying to dismiss the mental aspect of it, in fact I could go on about that part of the game for pages. It's just that others have already mentioned this. I was trying to add something new.

[bmt]

51 minutes ago, ts_1010 said:

I'll stick to the physical side of it as there are a few responses already.

 

Two things that haven't really been mentioned here explicitly, are speed of passing and always looking to gain numerical superiority.

 

With our changing passing speeds from slow to fast were trying to find the right moment to advance suddenly up the pitch. Sometimes after beating the press, sometimes after moving the defensive team around.

 

If we have blown their formation with our passing, the only thing a defending side can really do is sprint back into a more defensive shape. That can be really hard for the individual player after working hard on a press, or 40+ passes trying to keep someone covered. This can cause midfielders and attackers and fullbacks to "redline" and tire quickly.

 

The other issue is the numerical superiority. We keep trying to force that extra player advantage wherever we can. See @StriderHiryu and his analysis of this game as a key example.

 

If weve got one more player than them in an area then one Preston player has to cover two people. Or the whole defensive unit has to shuffle across following the ball. That takes work. You have to be fast on the shuffle to avoid being caught marking nobody.

 

It's the burst of high impact work that we force opposing teams to do that really hurts them. It's like they are doing HIIT training.

@StriderHiryu rightfully runs this thread but this is an exceptionally good description of the physical element. Makes a lot of sense, thanks

[honeybradger]

1 hour ago, ts_1010 said:

I'll stick to the physical side of it as there are a few responses already.

 

Two things that haven't really been mentioned here explicitly, are speed of passing and always looking to gain numerical superiority.

 

With our changing passing speeds from slow to fast were trying to find the right moment to advance suddenly up the pitch. Sometimes after beating the press, sometimes after moving the defensive team around.

 

If we have blown their formation with our passing, the only thing a defending side can really do is sprint back into a more defensive shape. That can be really hard for the individual player after working hard on a press, or 40+ passes trying to keep someone covered. This can cause midfielders and attackers and fullbacks to "redline" and tire quickly.

 

The other issue is the numerical superiority. We keep trying to force that extra player advantage wherever we can. See @StriderHiryu and his analysis of this game as a key example.

 

If weve got one more player than them in an area then one Preston player has to cover two people. Or the whole defensive unit has to shuffle across following the ball. That takes work. You have to be fast on the shuffle to avoid being caught marking nobody.

 

It's the burst of high impact work that we force opposing teams to do that really hurts them. It's like they are doing HIIT training.

There's also the fact that we have more depth than any team in the league. We can run further than any team in the league and play at a high level for the full 90 because we have players of similar quality on the bench to our starting XI to replace them. How many time have we seen the opposition take off one of their best players at 70 minutes because they looked knackered and the opposition immediately looks worse.

[davieG]

EFL Champ Fans

  · 

Interesting graph showing the style of each Championship team so far:

 

[sacreblueits442]

17 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

I wonder what Enzo can do if we still have Maddison and Barnes. I also think there was a player in Perez who was mismanaged - and if he is still here.

...both were part of a weak-minded team that took us down, whilst both were very talented and would have been big assets for Maresca, it is good to see a more cohesive and happy team out on the pitch!!!

[davieG]

12 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...both were part of a weak-minded team that took us down, whilst both were very talented and would have been big assets for Maresca, it is good to see a more cohesive and happy team out on the pitch!!!

So were many others that are still here and Enzo has re-motivated and invigorated them. No reason why he couldn't have done the same with other players. It's clear to see that Rodgers was the main stumbling block last season, not the sole blame but a massive part of it.

[sacreblueits442]

11 minutes ago, davieG said:

So were many others that are still here and Enzo has re-motivated and invigorated them. No reason why he couldn't have done the same with other players. It's clear to see that Rodgers was the main stumbling block last season, not the sole blame but a massive part of it.

...the clique has been broken up, only one left (KDH) and he has been putting his head down and working for the team!!!

  Look at the ones that are still here, down to earth and workman like.

[davieG]

1 minute ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...the clique has been broken up, only one left (KDH) and he has been putting his head down and working for the team!!!

  Look at the ones that are still here, down to earth and workman like.

Erm KDH, Ndidi, Vardy, Nacho, Ricardo, Faes etc were all part of the clique and all were less then convincing. Enzo has revived them from their stupor.

[Unabomber]

10 minutes ago, davieG said:

Erm KDH, Ndidi, Vardy, Nacho, Ricardo, Faes etc were all part of the clique and all were less then convincing. Enzo has revived them from their stupor.

I thought that clique was Maddison kdh Thomas barnes? 

[sacreblueits442]

40 minutes ago, Unabomber said:

I thought that clique was Maddison kdh Thomas barnes? 

...yes!!!