Notts F & Everton admit to breaking rules and face points deduction

[Bourbon Fox]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

 

American sport systems are very strange. The worse you play, the more of the hot young talent you get..

From each according to ability, to each according to need?

 

THOSE DAMN NFL COMMIES

[CosbehFox]

 

8 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

What are you basing your assumptions on, have you done some FFP calculations, or are you going of a source?

Something I have been told.
 

You know it better than most CHF. But when you consider our losses for the PSR period are going to be around £216 million (allowing a £60m loss this season - figure which clubs recently in similar scenarios have lost) and the £83m allowable FFP loss.
 

That’s a ratio of 38% and the Ev’s recent punished calculation was 31% with a huge load of dough going on their new stadium (£400m into £129m FFP loss). 

Edited 6 February 2024 by CosbehFox

[st albans fox]

13 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

We'd be absolutely shafted if this were the case.

Probably £15m /20m

[Daggers]

17 hours ago, Footballwipe said:

Again to reiterate to Everton fans, if you think the league is so corrupt why are you still in it? Escape to the sanctity of the EFL and renounce your promotions should you ever get them. Stop holding your sad little cards and wearing your weird hoodies and do something. Resign from the Premier League.

 

The crying and wailing over this is absolutely unhinged. These rules are fine until they're applied to you then it's wrong and corrupt. Misrepresenting and misunderstanding the huge complexities of the Man City case, also, is really annoying.

 

 

By whining and whinging loudly is what scousers do best. 
 

In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s the only thing they can do apart from walking around the city in slippers with curlers in their hair. 

[CosbehFox]

8 hours ago, MPH said:

 

i do believe that if there was a need to sell people , it would have been done in January when the prices are higher. More chance of time running out if you wait until June…   I think we will  have a massive reduction in wages come next season compared to when we were last in the prem  and we will also have prem money coming in too… we will do alright but I don’t think we will be challenging the top 5 next couple of years!

I don’t know if you’ve noticed transfers were significantly down in January. Still had one club try to lowball us because they are aware of our FFP position. 
 

The massive reduction in wages won’t matter or the Prem money. Damage is done in that regard. FFP is always looking back on your accounts rather than what you are projected.
 

Inversely that means we are being held to a standard on this year’s PSR of being in the PL for three years and the last year of revenue for European football. 

[Ric Flair]

Let's say we are tight for 22/23 but just scrape it. If we breached 23/24 (EFL) but are in the Prem when it happens, what would be our punishment? Would we get our heads kicked in as soon as we get relegated again or will it be applied whilst in the Prem?

 

Obviously all hypothetical as we might be absolutely fine but it's hard to track how it'll be judged when you're yo-yoing.

[st albans fox]

27 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Let's say we are tight for 22/23 but just scrape it. If we breached 23/24 (EFL) but are in the Prem when it happens, what would be our punishment? Would we get our heads kicked in as soon as we get relegated again or will it be applied whilst in the Prem?

 

Obviously all hypothetical as we might be absolutely fine but it's hard to track how it'll be judged when you're yo-yoing.

I believe that efl stuff is inapplicable whilst in the prem.  do forest have anything left from efl issues if they were relegated?  

[sheffield_fox]

6 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I believe that efl stuff is inapplicable whilst in the prem.  do forest have anything left from efl issues if they were relegated?  

Oh man I really hope so 

[lcfc278]

Weird question but it just popped in my mind and thought I'd ask here, when we won the league and Vichai bought all the players a BMW i8, did that have to go through the books of the club as a 'player bonus' or was that just a gift from him to them as individuals, outside of the clubs usual business? How would that work?

 

I think I remember reading at the time they were worth like £100K each so a couple of million. 

[Vacamion]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

 scousers...
 

the only thing they can do apart from walking around the city in slippers with curlers in their hair. 

 

The first time I witnessed this in Liverpool, I couldn't believe it.

 

They actally walk around the city centre like that as a badge of honour.

 

I should clarify it's the ladies we are talking about (although I wouldn't put it past Calvert-Lewin).

 

 

Edited 6 February 2024 by Vacamion

[hackneyfox]

Do we know what happens to players salaries should we get promoted or is everyone just guessing?

If they do revert to pre relegation levels it's a damn good thing we lost so many last season and more going at the end of this.

How many players will we have left who would have been on daft premier salaries?

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, lcfc278 said:

Weird question but it just popped in my mind and thought I'd ask here, when we won the league and Vichai bought all the players a BMW i8, did that have to go through the books of the club as a 'player bonus' or was that just a gift from him to them as individuals, outside of the clubs usual business? How would that work?

 

I think I remember reading at the time they were worth like £100K each so a couple of million. 

Would have been included on their P11D as a benefit so must have been added to the wage bill 

I guess the club would have paid tax on them too 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

Do we know what happens to players salaries should we get promoted or is everyone just guessing?

If they do revert to pre relegation levels it's a damn good thing we lost so many last season and more going at the end of this.

How many players will we have left who would have been on daft premier salaries?

We don’t 

But it’s not an unreasonable assumption that if there is a relegation reduction then there will be a promotion recovery to the agreed contractual salary 

my musing earlier was that did we manage to get relegation clauses included into contracts on the basis that players would have the opportunity to recover some or all of their reduction via immediate promotion.  Many were surprised that we had relegation clauses in contracts at all (apart from VK and souttar) 

 

 

[Pliskin]

10 hours ago, MPH said:

 

American sport systems are very strange. The worse you play, the more of the hot young talent you get..

I think it’s a good thing personally. It certainly keeps things interesting you don’t get one team winning their respective finals every year, and it helps throw up a few surprises down the line. 
 

It’s also worth remembering that teams to trade, so one team may have drafted a first pick, but a more reputable franchise can come in and offer a trade, but it still usually benefits the team they’re trading with, as they will often sacrifice two decent players to trade in one first pick draft.

 

I do think the system they use is good, their leagues are definitely more stable and lucrative than the EPL I’d say (exciting the MLS as it’s not competitive compared to the American sports). 

[MPH]

4 hours ago, sylofox said:

Prices aren't going to be high anytime soon. The less clubs that can afford to buy means those selling will have to accept what's offered.

 

We really are going to have to rethink our selling strategy very quickly.

 

totally get what you’re saying. We have always sought top dollar for our players though and I personally believe that’s been a stumbling block to a few player sales recently, but anyway.. January prices are always higher is what I meant…

Edited 6 February 2024 by MPH

[MPH]

3 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

I don’t know if you’ve noticed transfers were significantly down in January. Still had one club try to lowball us because they are aware of our FFP position. 
 

The massive reduction in wages won’t matter or the Prem money. Damage is done in that regard. FFP is always looking back on your accounts rather than what you are projected.
 

Inversely that means we are being held to a standard on this year’s PSR of being in the PL for three years and the last year of revenue for European football. 

 

because of the points deductions. In has still always been the case that  January transfer prices are higher than summer prices because clubs are a bit more desperate..

[MPH]

28 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I think it’s a good thing personally. It certainly keeps things interesting you don’t get one team winning their respective finals every year, and it helps throw up a few surprises down the line. 
 

It’s also worth remembering that teams to trade, so one team may have drafted a first pick, but a more reputable franchise can come in and offer a trade, but it still usually benefits the team they’re trading with, as they will often sacrifice two decent players to trade in one first pick draft.

 

I do think the system they use is good, their leagues are definitely more stable and lucrative than the EPL I’d say (exciting the MLS as it’s not competitive compared to the American sports). 

 

it’s terrible! Teams are ‘ rewarded’ for playing badly with the best young players! What’s the point of competing!?

 

anyway, that’s really a discussion for another thread.

[Pliskin]

17 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

it’s terrible! Teams are ‘ rewarded’ for playing badly with the best young players! What’s the point of competing!?

 

anyway, that’s really a discussion for another thread.

I get what you mean, on the face of it, it does seem ludicrous…. But, it can have its benefits, particularly if a lesser team has a decent draft, and goes on to be successful. But, America is geared up to operate this way, it’s how they’ve always done it, which is why it works for them.

[MPH]

3 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

I get what you mean, on the face of it, it does seem ludicrous…. But, it can have its benefits, particularly if a lesser team has a decent draft, and goes on to be successful. But, America is geared up to operate this way, it’s how they’ve always done it, which is why it works for them.

 

im sorry mate but theres absolutely no defense of the American sports system for me  nothing will fly.

[CosbehFox]

25 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

because of the points deductions. In has still always been the case that  January transfer prices are higher than summer prices because clubs are a bit more desperate..

Yeah so if we wanted to sell a player to comply for FFP, why would we sell this January given the points deductions scenario?
 

FFP runs until end of June so club would sell when the buyer’s market is higher. 

[CosbehFox]

Other massive criticism of Rudkin on FFP is the price we’ve bought players at. The amortisation factor creates a legacy of past shitty deals still hurting us now, even though it’s outside of the years period where FFP is assessed. 
 

Loaning players out is fine until you’ve reduced the price of your asset and you badly need the cold cash of a transfer fee against your FFP loss. 

Edited 6 February 2024 by CosbehFox

[orangecity23]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

How many players will we have left who would have been on daft premier salaries?

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS

BOUBA SOUMARE

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS WE'LL PAY,

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS

BOUBA SOUMARE

UNTIL HE LEAVES IN THE USUAL WAY

(Bosman)

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, orangecity23 said:

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS

BOUBA SOUMARE

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS WE'LL PAY,

TWO MORE YEARS, TWO MORE YEARS

BOUBA SOUMARE

UNTIL HE LEAVES IN THE USUAL WAY

(Bosman)

Outstanding

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, CosbehFox said:

 

Something I have been told.
 

You know it better than most CHF. But when you consider our losses for the PSR period are going to be around £216 million (allowing a £60m loss this season - figure which clubs recently in similar scenarios have lost) and the £83m allowable FFP loss.
 

That’s a ratio of 38% and the Ev’s recent punished calculation was 31% with a huge load of dough going on their new stadium (£400m into £129m FFP loss). 

According to Swish Ramble, we were uncomfortably close to the limit in the previous 3-year reporting, under by around 4m, 

 

I don't think the loss in the next the 3-year period (21/22, 22/23, 23/24) will be as high as your number.

 

What we know is:

21/22:    - 93m (Taken from the accounts) 

 

My guess: 

 

22/23:   - 30m (This is my calculation with the facts I know and some assumptions) 

23/24    - 23m (This is my calculation with the facts I know and some assumptions) 

 

So, around 146m loss over the 3-year period on my calculations.

 

It is important to realise the headline losses aren't the figure for the FFP calculations.

 

There are a number of allowable deductions when it comes to FFP,  seen as “healthy” expenditure:

 

Depreciation of tangible fixed assets

New stadium expenses

Other amortisation

Youth development

Women’s football

Community development

In addition, clubs can deduct promotion payments.

 

Some of the deductions from the 93m loss in 21/22 Depreciation of tangible fixed assets: 7.2m, Youth development 5m, Women’s football 3m, Community development 1m =16m 

 

For example, this takes the 93m (22/22) down by 16m to 76m. 

 

So if it takes three years (16m x 3) of deductions from my guess, 146m - 36m =107m

 

So I reckon we are 24m over the limit. 

 

I reckon we would have had to chop the 21/22 wage bill by 65% by 23/24 to be under the limit.

 

In my assumptions, I did 50%  

 

Or find some more deductions to help. 

[CosbehFox]

Really good summary there CHF. 

[MPH]

49 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Yeah so if we wanted to sell a player to comply for FFP, why would we sell this January given the points deductions scenario?
 

FFP runs until end of June so club would sell when the buyer’s market is higher. 

So that we could have also squeezed enough  money out of the deal to  buy a player ( sensi)  Maresca seemed to think we needed him now, so i'll trust him on that one..

 

 

There isn't a guarantee that by the end of June we would have been able to sell someone- prices are lower in June because there are also some free transfers going around that people can look at,. Surely it makes sense that if we needed to comply with FFP AND buy a player, we would look to get the best price, which is traditionally in January,