Cooper - OUT

[Sunbury Fox]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

No, because generally there isn't any. People were calling for him to be sacked during preseason.  You've made your mind up and no amount of wins is going to change your mind.

We're a newly promoted team with a new manager forced upon us due to circumstances beyond our control. It's obviously going to be a struggle. To pretend we can gung ho attack and win every game is ridiculous,  and any fair minded person would recognise that.

I’m not sure most of Cooper’s critics are saying we should be going gung ho, but they are concerned, quite reasonably in my view, about the following issues:

 

The ridiculous lop-sided formation that often leaves us with no RB when defending, no RW when attacking and two players falling over each other in the 10.

 

Team selections that leave out 2 of our most effective players from last season in favour of inferior players.

 

His generally appalling in-game management eg at Palace, Bournemouth (H) second half and Everton at home when he was the only person in the stadium who couldn’t see that we needed Fatawu to come on to attack the geriatric Ashley Young. I suspect we’d have seen similar results to yesterday if he had.

 

 

Edited 20 October 2024 by Sunbury Fox

[Micky]

The lack of understanding and realisation in this thread is unbelievable.

 

Cooper is doing a fabulous job and we are lucky to have him. The second half showed yesterday how much the players are behind him. 

 

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail. 

 

The moment that people start to realise that they were wrong, to swallow some of their pride and to actually get behind the manager and the team, we will be even better. The King Power needs to be a cauldron of noise this season and we will then have the potential to survive and perhaps more. Afterall, that's all this season is about. 

 

 

Edited 20 October 2024 by Micky

[The Doctor]

19 minutes ago, Webbo said:

No, because generally there isn't any. People were calling for him to be sacked during preseason.  You've made your mind up and no amount of wins is going to change your mind.

We're a newly promoted team with a new manager forced upon us due to circumstances beyond our control. It's obviously going to be a struggle. To pretend we can gung ho attack and win every game is ridiculous,  and any fair minded person would recognise that.

Almost like there's a balance between going "gung ho attack" and the current ultra defensive set up...

 

No-one is asking for us to play like Keegans newcastle, but anyone denying that Coopers tendency to go ultra negative is a problem for us is, tbqh, demonstrating a severe lack of understanding of the tactical side of football. We blew a 2-0 lead v Palace, but for a disallowed goal we'd have blown a lead at home to bournemouth. The reason why is because Coopers response to any sort of lead is "just defend it lads". Problem is, you can't "just defend it" - if you show no intent to stretch the game, to pose a counter threat, then teams can pour forward without any concern, and so you concede a hell of a lot of shot volume (only brentford are allowing more shots per game, and they've already played man city, Spurs, Liverpool and man utd away), and territory (so the shots are from better positions, only spurs average shot faced distance is shorter than ours, and they've allowed half as many shots as we have), which tends to lead to a very leaky defence.

Now, in fairness, we've conceded less than 6 otther teams, but our xGA is the worst in the division, and it's a combination of Hermansen being a top keeper and some questionable finishing from opposing forwards thats stopped that being reflected in the actual numbers.

 

Coopers steadfast refusal to attack is going to result in dropped points, not just in failure to get back into games but also in failure to see out leads, because the best way to defend a lead is to pose enough of an attacking threat that the opponents are too wary to go "gung-ho".

[Tuna]

Fair play, 2 in 2.

Edited 20 October 2024 by Tuna

[FrankieADZ]

8 minutes ago, Micky said:

The lack of understanding and realisation in this thread is unbelievable.

 

Cooper is doing a fabulous job and we are lucky to have him. The second half showed yesterday how much the players are behind him. 

 

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail. 

 

The moment that people start to realise that they were wrong, to swallow some of their pride and to actually get behind the manager and the team, we will be even better. The King Power needs to be a cauldron of noise this season and we will then have the potential to survive a d perhaps more. After all, that's all this season is about. 

 

 

its the performances and some of his tactics/player selection 

look back at the majority of the games this season, we've been battered, hung on etc, the players have shown they are more than good enough to stay up imo tho

we could easily be on 2/3 points on another day if you look deeper at the games we've played so far, Spurs should have been out of sight, bournemouth should have got something, yesterday southampton shit themselves, fulham should have been out of sight but went on to win anyway, hammered at arsenal,  everton could have been out of sight too, oh we should have lost to Walsall too, his game management at Palace was truly awful, in trying to hold on from the 75min in a game we was on top in

 

hes not learning from the games we've played or from his time out the game either

Edited 20 October 2024 by FrankieADZ

[Micky]

1 minute ago, FrankieADZ said:

its the performances and some of his tactics/player selection 

look back at the majority of the games this season, we've been battered, hung on etc, the players have shown they are more than good enough to stay up imo tho

we could easily be on 2/3 points on another day if you look deeper at the games we've played so far, Spurs should have been out of sight, bournemouth should have got something, yesterday southampton shit themselves, fulham should have been out of sight but went on to win anyway, hammered at arsenal,  everton could have been out of sight too, oh we should have lost to Walsall too,

 

hes not learning from the games we've played or from his time out the game either

And this is where people are deluded. We are not the team we once were. We are a bottom end Premier league team and there will be plenty of games where we are hanging on this season. We were never going to come into this league and dominate teams. The fact that we have been in every game this season is huge credit to Cooper. 

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Almost like there's a balance between going "gung ho attack" and the current ultra defensive set up...

 

No-one is asking for us to play like Keegans newcastle, but anyone denying that Coopers tendency to go ultra negative is a problem for us is, tbqh, demonstrating a severe lack of understanding of the tactical side of football. We blew a 2-0 lead v Palace, but for a disallowed goal we'd have blown a lead at home to bournemouth. The reason why is because Coopers response to any sort of lead is "just defend it lads". Problem is, you can't "just defend it" - if you show no intent to stretch the game, to pose a counter threat, then teams can pour forward without any concern, and so you concede a hell of a lot of shot volume (only brentford are allowing more shots per game, and they've already played man city, Spurs, Liverpool and man utd away), and territory (so the shots are from better positions, only spurs average shot faced distance is shorter than ours, and they've allowed half as many shots as we have), which tends to lead to a very leaky defence.

Now, in fairness, we've conceded less than 6 otther teams, but our xGA is the worst in the division, and it's a combination of Hermansen being a top keeper and some questionable finishing from opposing forwards thats stopped that being reflected in the actual numbers.

 

Coopers steadfast refusal to attack is going to result in dropped points, not just in failure to get back into games but also in failure to see out leads, because the best way to defend a lead is to pose enough of an attacking threat that the opponents are too wary to go "gung-ho".

Ultra negative, except for all the goals we've scored.

Just admit it,   he's not as bad as you'd hoped and we're doing better than expected . Try to enjoy it.

[JimJams]

Just now, Micky said:

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail.

This sort of comment is no better than those that give no credit.  Absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

Criticism is not about wanting him to fail.  Have you ever had a review in your job or been critiqued in your line of work? Do you think that's because your employer wants you to fail?

 

The problem is that there are three parties here. There are those that will never give credit no matter what happens, and there are those that are never critical no matter what happens.  And with both he can either do no right or do no wrong. There's an excuse for any outcome that either is or isn't his fault whichever side of the fence you're on.  Neither are objective.

And then there's the third party who are open to changing their opinions based on what they see and are open to praising and detracting in equal measure, and do so accordingly.  And if you're one of these people you'll get the other two accusing you of constantly changing your mind as if in some bizarre way, that's a bad thing.

 

I'm not saying which camp you're in, you'll know yourself, but the idea that anyone who is critical of Cooper wants him to fail, whilst probably true in some cases, is ridiculous to me.

[whoareyaaa]

Just now, Micky said:

And this is where people are deluded. We are not the team we once were. We are a bottom end Premier league team and there will be plenty of games where we are hanging on this season. We were never going to come into this league and dominate teams. The fact that we have been in every game this season is huge credit to Cooper. 

I don't get this line we are no worse than 10 other teams in the league, that's why we have matched most teams in the games so far.

[Micky]

Just now, JimJams said:

This sort of comment is no better than those that give no credit.  Absolutely ridiculous thing to say.

Criticism is not about wanting him to fail.  Have you ever had a review in your job or been critiqued in your line of work? Do you think that's because your employer wants you to fail?

 

The problem is that there are three parties here. There are those that will never give credit no matter what happens, and there are those that are never critical no matter what happens.  And with both he can either do no right or do no wrong. There's an excuse for any outcome that either is or isn't his fault whichever side of the fence you're on.  Neither are objective.

And then there's the third party who are open to changing their opinions based on what they see and are open to praising and detracting in equal measure, and do so accordingly.  And if you're one of these people you'll get the other two accusing you of constantly changing your mind as if in some bizarre way, that's a bad thing.

 

I'm not saying which camp you're in, you'll know yourself, but the idea that anyone who is critical of Cooper wants him to fail, whilst probably true in some cases, is ridiculous to me.

No, it's the tone and the vitriol towards Cooper that is the problem. It's like some people would sooner us lose and for him to be sacked, rather than for us to win.

[JimJams]

Just now, Micky said:

No, it's the tone and the vitriol towards Cooper that is the problem. It's like some people would sooner us lose and for him to be sacked, rather than for us to win.

I agree that is true in some cases definitely. It's true of opinions on players too regardless of performance. Some people want things to back up their opinions rather than have to change their opinion. 

[Micky]

1 minute ago, whoareyaaa said:

I don't get this line we are no worse than 10 other teams in the league, that's why we have matched most teams in the games so far.

Our squad is one of the weakest in the league. What Cooper is doing though is to create a team that will fight for each other and as a collective, get results. 

[phoneticerror]

25 minutes ago, Sunbury Fox said:

I’m not sure most of Cooper’s critics are saying we should be going gung ho, but they are concerned, quite reasonably in my view, about the following issues:

 

The ridiculous lop-sided formation that often leaves us with no RB when defending, no RW when attacking and two players falling over each in the 10.

 

Team selections that leave out 2 of our most effective players from last season in favour of inferior players.

 

His generally appalling in-game management eg at Palace and Everton at home when he was the only person in the stadium who couldn’t see that we needed Fatawu to come on to attack the geriatric Ashley Young. I suspect we’d have seen similar results to yesterday if he had.

 

 

Summed up pretty well.

[Nalis]

I don't see the value in sacking him now but he's not the long term solution. 

 

If we getting results from this lucky general then so be it

Edited 20 October 2024 by Nalis

[Pliskin]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

No, because generally there isn't any. People were calling for him to be sacked during preseason.  You've made your mind up and no amount of wins is going to change your mind.

We're a newly promoted team with a new manager forced upon us due to circumstances beyond our control. It's obviously going to be a struggle. To pretend we can gung ho attack and win every game is ridiculous,  and any fair minded person would recognise that.

There are plenty of rational posts about why people are still unsure of Cooper…. And despite yesterday’s result there are still a lot of reasons to be concerned…… the euphoria of a late winner against a dreadful team that largely dominated us, still can’t mask the fact there are still a number of issues that can’t be ignored. 
 

Whereas I commend the lads spirit for getting back into the game, the real concern is ending up 2-0 down to them, and the fact we were so poor in that first half. The red card and the fact they’re pretty shit contributed to the come back, just as much as the quality on our squad. 
 

I just don’t rate Cooper as a coach, I think he’s poor and is still making bad decisions. The negatives can’t be ignored. 

[Koke]

2 minutes ago, Nalis said:

I don't see the value in sacking him now but he's not the long term solution. 

 

If we getting results from this lucky general then so be it

 

I agree hrs definitely not the long term solution but if he keeps up up he will stay. The board don't have the foresight to take initiative and look for better. Cooper will stay until we are near certain relegation. And then the cycle starts again with rebuilding.

[fox_favourite]

18 minutes ago, Micky said:

Our squad is one of the weakest in the league. What Cooper is doing though is to create a team that will fight for each other and as a collective, get results. 

I disagree. We have a better squad then you give credit for. As I keep saying, some have completed in European competitions very recently....for us. 

 

My complete frustration with Cooper is the lack of game management, lineups and non tactical awareness. We have been lucky in some games, and very poor in games as well. Players getting in the way of each other (see Everton game as an example) shows the coaching isn't there, the 1st half yesterday was atrocious. We have been poor in games yet still scoring isn't due to tactics, it shows we have a competitive players in this league. 

 

I don't want him to fail, as I don't want my club to fail. But he's not the man for me. His subs, bar yesterday have been to replace like for like, not changing the shape or making an impact.

 

He's not pro active, and it seems from what I e seen the frustration is with the players. If they had full respect for him, would they be shouting at the bench for change? 

 

Look at the bigger picture. We have some good players, but we need a manager that is more progressive. 

 

He's a downgrade on Enzo and his coaching, and that's on the board. For a manager who is defensive and negative, we're still conceding too many goals. 

Edited 20 October 2024 by fox_favourite

[CrazyKopCorner]

39 minutes ago, Micky said:

The lack of understanding and realisation in this thread is unbelievable.

 

Cooper is doing a fabulous job and we are lucky to have him. The second half showed yesterday how much the players are behind him. 

 

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail. 

 

The moment that people start to realise that they were wrong, to swallow some of their pride and to actually get behind the manager and the team, we will be even better. The King Power needs to be a cauldron of noise this season and we will then have the potential to survive and perhaps more. Afterall, that's all this season is about. 

 

 

Very good Mrs Cooper 

[CosbehFox]

59 minutes ago, whoareyaaa said:

I don't get this line we are no worse than 10 other teams in the league, that's why we have matched most teams in the games so far.

We've also got six teams below us - we've played three of them already which has helped. 

 

The two teams we've beat we beat last season. It round out eventually and its' gotta to be full throttle in this period of favourable fixtures right now. 

 

One positive from yesterday was even excepting the penalty we win on xG. 

Edited 20 October 2024 by CosbehFox

[iancognito]

45 minutes ago, Webbo said:

No, because generally there isn't any. People were calling for him to be sacked during preseason.  You've made your mind up and no amount of wins is going to change your mind.

We're a newly promoted team with a new manager forced upon us due to circumstances beyond our control. It's obviously going to be a struggle. To pretend we can gung ho attack and win every game is ridiculous,  and any fair minded person would recognise that.

 

I don't think anyone expects gung-ho attacking but both Mavididi and Fatawu have proved last season they can drop back and defend, Enzo demanded that for his controlled football and shape he wanted. I think most people just want this side to be given a chance, that if we're going to sit back and defend that we have our best options for counter-attacking, not experienced campaigners trying to hold the ball up.

 

41 minutes ago, Mike1983 said:

I generally agree with this, but I do think you're not giving him enough credit for the fighting spirit and sense of urgency we definitely seem to have improved on. 

 

I disagree with those claiming Fatawu should be a clear starter based on his outstanding performance yesterday. Football isn’t that straightforward, had he started, there’s no guarantee he'd have made the same impact. 

 

Ayew was pretty poor up until the goal, but when you pop up with a late winner like that, all’s forgiven.

 

Credit to Cooper for making the subs at the right time.

The right subs at the right time would have been pretty much any time after the first half as it was blindingly obvious that again we'd set up wrong and were being over-run on the right (again), lacking ideas in their half and giving the ball away cheaply.

 

The running theme from virtually all games this season is that our starting set-up, line-up or style has been wrong and needed to change in order for us to get something from the game.

 

I was not only in favour of giving Cooper a chance when he came in, I was totally in favour of him full stop because of how he'd turned an abysmal Forest side around and achieving things with young players for England. Wins are great, 9 from 8 is a decent start but the points don't cover up the glaringly obvious errors and the fact we've been very lucky not to have conceded 4 or 5 goals in about half the games. His comments about Fatawu needing to adapt to the Prem when he'd thrown the likes of Okoli and El Khannous  straight in just show he won't even admit to an error. He can't be fired when we're picking up points but equally he can't keep doing it the hard way because he'll have fans on his back more often than not and eventually we will get a kicking off more clinical sides.

[fox_favourite]

44 minutes ago, Micky said:

The lack of understanding and realisation in this thread is unbelievable.

 

Cooper is doing a fabulous job and we are lucky to have him. The second half showed yesterday how much the players are behind him. 

 

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail. 

 

The moment that people start to realise that they were wrong, to swallow some of their pride and to actually get behind the manager and the team, we will be even better. The King Power needs to be a cauldron of noise this season and we will then have the potential to survive and perhaps more. Afterall, that's all this season is about. 

 

 

Also, if this is your view, watch @StriderHiryu channel on YouTube and see the tactical frustrations from other games that Cooper shows he's not a top level one. 

Edited 20 October 2024 by fox_favourite

[ElusiveEd]

4 minutes ago, CrazyKopCorner said:

Very good Mrs Cooper 

With that understanding, Mrs Cooper joined FoxesTalk in 2004 and has made over 1.2 thousand posts.

 

She must be a die hard LCFC fan on top of being able to see well into the future to know her husband would one day manage us. 

[Micky]

8 minutes ago, fox_favourite said:

Also, if this is your view, watch @StriderHiryu channel on YouTube and see the tactical frustrations from other games that Cooper shows he's not a top level one. 

No thanks. I'd sooner watch the game than listen to some randomer on YouTube (of which their are millions). 

[Koke]

I don't rate Cooper and he's not the long term solution for us but what's sad is that he'll get more appreciation from the Forest fans than our fans on Friday. We're doing OK atm so back the team and manager.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

51 minutes ago, Micky said:

The lack of understanding and realisation in this thread is unbelievable.

 

Cooper is doing a fabulous job and we are lucky to have him. The second half showed yesterday how much the players are behind him. 

 

It's sad that so many people want their team to fail. Because those that are continually being critical of Cooper are doing exactly that, wanting their team to fail. 

 

The moment that people start to realise that they were wrong, to swallow some of their pride and to actually get behind the manager and the team, we will be even better. The King Power needs to be a cauldron of noise this season and we will then have the potential to survive and perhaps more. Afterall, that's all this season is about. 

 

 

These two wins have been huge and I’m slowly coming around to the fact he might be able to galvanise us and I’m now reminding myself of how I reasoned he could he a good appointment. If he sorts the issue at right back then I could he well on the way. He seems to be learning about not being so negative in his selections, and also making good use of the bench and squad.

 

It was pretty grim before the season started. We’d had a poor pre season and I wasn’t impressed with signings or the squad. However it is better than I thought at that point. I do think we still rely to much on Vardy (Edouard looks poor so far), but good to see others chipping in with goals as well. That and the right back issue are the biggest concerns for me, but as I say I’m slowing coming around. The players seem to be playing for him as well which is huge, or if they’re not they’re covering it reasonably well or taking some initiative.