Cooper - OUT

[Sankey93]

I’d sack him tomoz even if we won 5-0 😂 blokes out his depth. Loads of managers available who will keep us up! 

[Pliskin]

On 07/11/2024 at 23:20, Phil Mitchell said:

We're out of the bottom three, he's achieving his target. Don't know what folk are expecting really.

Are you and @Long Eaton Fox the same person? 

[Jimmy]

7 minutes ago, HesNotGudjonsonn2 said:

We all know in honesty the win at Bournemouth was lucky as they should have converted their chances and the win at Southampton happened once they went down to ten men as did the draw at Ipswich. Do the Cooper in people think this luck will last, because don't get me mistaken, it is luck. I hope it continues but I am not optimistic. 

people kept saying Ipswich's luck would run out last season with all their late goals, it never did. Like it or not Cooper is doing exactly what the board hired him to do, keep us up, as others have said unless both our form nosedives and others start performing we will keep averaging around a point per game which has been enough to stay up for the last few years.

 

I think some of you think we're still a top 8 side, our squad really isn't that great we are about where we should be in terms of quality IMO.

 

I think should we stay up an new manager comes in and we invest as much as we can, if not a new manager will come in and we'll rebuild again like we did with Enzo, either way I think Cooper is a 1 and done manager with us

[Jimmy]

11 minutes ago, Sankey93 said:

I’d sack him tomoz even if we won 5-0 😂 blokes out his depth. Loads of managers available who will keep us up! 

just because they are available doesn't mean they'd want the job, a lot of managers don't want to walk into a relegation battle midseason

Edited 9 November 2024 by Jimmy

[Pliskin]

On 07/11/2024 at 23:14, Long Eaton Fox said:

15th and you want him out. What do you all expect. Try getting behind this team. It helps.

 

On 07/11/2024 at 23:20, Phil Mitchell said:

We're out of the bottom three, he's achieving his target. Don't know what folk are expecting really.

If this is the most compelling argument you can present, then you obviously don’t have an ounce of critical thinking…….

 

 

The reason some of us want him gone, is because he is arguably underperforming and misusing the resources he has….. we’re certainly better than our position shows, granted not by much, but we’re certainly better. A few reasons why I think this…

 

1- he still can’t pick an 11 he’s either happy with or confident in.

2 - it’s clear that there’s no clear tactical plan under him, players often look confused and go through at least a couple of formations a game. 
3 - despite being defensive can’t keep a clean sheet….

4 - more often than not starting slowly and conceding first normally due to poor tactics or a mistake. 
5 - unable to put together a complete 90 minute performance, everything is in patches and it seems we have to rely on the game descending into chaos to come out on top, which usually is an indication of a lack of plan, and more of a reaction to a situation.
 

All in all, I don’t think Cooper is a very good coach,  he may do enough to keep us up, and I think he would because there’s three teams below who who are most definitely worse than us man for man…..

 

The argument of a “newly promoted team” doesn’t wash, there’s a lot of premier league and European experience in this team, enough to survive fairly comfortably…. In my opinion, a better coach would get more out of this team. 

[HesNotGudjonsonn2]

9 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

 

If this is the most compelling argument you can present, then you obviously don’t have an ounce of critical thinking…….

 

 

The reason some of us want him gone, is because he is arguably underperforming and misusing the resources he has….. we’re certainly better than our position shows, granted not by much, but we’re certainly better. A few reasons why I think this…

 

1- he still can’t pick an 11 he’s either happy with or confident in.

2 - it’s clear that there’s no clear tactical plan under him, players often look confused and go through at least a couple of formations a game. 
3 - despite being defensive can’t keep a clean sheet….

4 - more often than not starting slowly and conceding first normally due to poor tactics or a mistake. 
5 - unable to put together a complete 90 minute performance, everything is in patches and it seems we have to rely on the game descending into chaos to come out on top, which usually is an indication of a lack of plan, and more of a reaction to a situation.
 

All in all, I don’t think Cooper is a very good coach,  he may do enough to keep us up, and I think he would because there’s three teams below who who are most definitely worse than us man for man…..

 

The argument of a “newly promoted team” doesn’t wash, there’s a lot of premier league and European experience in this team, enough to survive fairly comfortably…. In my opinion, a better coach would get more out of this team. 

I concur, and I am sure there are plenty of managers and coaches who would be capable of achieving better from this team. I don’t know who they are as I am not in the industry and don’t follow all the leagues, but I am sure they are out there and would jump at the chance of managing in the Prem as the opportunity may not come again. 

[winteriscoming]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

just because they are available doesn't mean they'd want the job, a lot of managers don't want to walk into a relegation battle midseason

Did Emery when he took over at Villa with them 3 points above the drop zone? 

[majaco]

We're doing better than I thought we would be at the end of last season

[Aus Fox]

4 hours ago, Pliskin said:

 

If this is the most compelling argument you can present, then you obviously don’t have an ounce of critical thinking…….

 

 

The reason some of us want him gone, is because he is arguably underperforming and misusing the resources he has….. we’re certainly better than our position shows, granted not by much, but we’re certainly better. A few reasons why I think this…

 

1- he still can’t pick an 11 he’s either happy with or confident in.

2 - it’s clear that there’s no clear tactical plan under him, players often look confused and go through at least a couple of formations a game. 
3 - despite being defensive can’t keep a clean sheet….

4 - more often than not starting slowly and conceding first normally due to poor tactics or a mistake. 
5 - unable to put together a complete 90 minute performance, everything is in patches and it seems we have to rely on the game descending into chaos to come out on top, which usually is an indication of a lack of plan, and more of a reaction to a situation.
 

All in all, I don’t think Cooper is a very good coach,  he may do enough to keep us up, and I think he would because there’s three teams below who who are most definitely worse than us man for man…..

 

The argument of a “newly promoted team” doesn’t wash, there’s a lot of premier league and European experience in this team, enough to survive fairly comfortably…. In my opinion, a better coach would get more out of this team. 

Not having a dig, but can you explain why you think the resources we have is better than 15th in the league?

The 5 points you’ve put together are basically just one thought rehashed in 5 different ways.

Our first 11 is okay, when everyone is fit and on form, but. I better than okay. Mads is probably the only player in the squad we have that could attract interest from a team pushing for a European place. The squad is then paper thin. 
The likes of Luke Thomas, BDCR, Edouard   And Daka are all going to have to be used at some point this season in games.

I think so far we’ve done as expected. The objective this season is just survival and then we have a foundation to build upon. It takes time to get back to where we were and we need to be patient. I don’t think chopping and changing the manager every 5 minutes is going to help with the big plan.

[murphy]

48 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

Did Emery when he took over at Villa with them 3 points above the drop zone? 

Why do we keep hearing this one, single, solitary example of a decent manager going to a club close to the drop zone as if it were the norm?

 

It's not the same.  Villa were an established PL team, not a newly promoted one.  They are a bigger club and it could be argued that was the perfect time to join a club like Villa.  Not really in danger of going down and the only way is up.  We are not as attractive a proposition. 

 

[gurru991]

4 hours ago, Sankey93 said:

I’d sack him tomoz even if we won 5-0 😂 blokes out his depth. Loads of managers available who will keep us up! 

Name Them.   I’m interested 

[gurru991]

Not a lot of top flight managers have much interest in taking over a club in a relegation battle.   I doesn’t look great on the CV !!!!

Lots of people here wanted the sexy European Carlos Corberan but in hindsight that doesn’t look like a great deal.  The best we could attract are the up & comers from the lower leagues & in truth that is just a crap shoot !! Cooper is struggling but he’s getting the job done & I can’t see the board paying him out al long as we’re above the drop zone so suck it up !!!

[Gamble92]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

people kept saying Ipswich's luck would run out last season with all their late goals, it never did. Like it or not Cooper is doing exactly what the board hired him to do, keep us up, as others have said unless both our form nosedives and others start performing we will keep averaging around a point per game which has been enough to stay up for the last few years.

 

I think some of you think we're still a top 8 side, our squad really isn't that great we are about where we should be in terms of quality IMO.

 

I think should we stay up an new manager comes in and we invest as much as we can, if not a new manager will come in and we'll rebuild again like we did with Enzo, either way I think Cooper is a 1 and done manager with us

You're right in what you say but surely the club looks at more than just points tally. 

 

Obviously we'd all have taken 15th and 10 points at this stage but there's a difference between having 10 points you have deserved with great performances and having 10 points after facing 200 shots, having a goalkeeper saving us about 9 goals on xG and almost no identity or plan in how we play. All of that leaves him very close to the sack, regardless of how many points we have mustered. 

 

It does give him a cushion to work with and find his feet with that identity. But he needs to do it quick. 

[fox_favourite]

38 minutes ago, gurru991 said:

Not a lot of top flight managers have much interest in taking over a club in a relegation battle.   I doesn’t look great on the CV !!!!

Lots of people here wanted the sexy European Carlos Corberan but in hindsight that doesn’t look like a great deal.  The best we could attract are the up & comers from the lower leagues & in truth that is just a crap shoot !! Cooper is struggling but he’s getting the job done & I can’t see the board paying him out al long as we’re above the drop zone so suck it up !!!

Is he getting the job done, or is the players quality and individual moments keeping us above water? 

 

Is his tactics making the difference? 

 

Of course id we finish where we are now and by the same distance from relegation is a decent result, but I just think we could much if we were organised. Granted his subs did make a difference against Ipswich, but the tactical setup was all wrong to start with.

 

Cooper keeping us up I'd take, but he's struggling at the moment in my opinion due to him being a poor choice. 

Edited 10 November 2024 by fox_favourite

[Sankey93]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

just because they are available doesn't mean they'd want the job, a lot of managers don't want to walk into a relegation battle midseason

We could do a lot better than Steve cooper mate. No points deduction now and there is some bad teams in the league this year! 

[gurru991]

2 hours ago, Sankey93 said:

We could do a lot better than Steve cooper mate. No points deduction now and there is some bad teams in the league this year! 

Who do you have in mind ?

[winteriscoming]

3 hours ago, murphy said:

Why do we keep hearing this one, single, solitary example of a decent manager going to a club close to the drop zone as if it were the norm?

 

It's not the same.  Villa were an established PL team, not a newly promoted one.  They are a bigger club and it could be argued that was the perfect time to join a club like Villa.  Not really in danger of going down and the only way is up.  We are not as attractive a proposition. 

 

How can you say not really in danger of going down when they were only 3 points above the drop zone? We are an attractive proposition if we show some ambition. As I’ve stated before Leeds got Bielsa in the championship as did Wolves in getting Nuno. And Newcastle got Benitez in a relegation battle. This acceptance of keeping a mediocre championship level manager is baffling when there are so many better options available. 

[Sly]

The xG table highlights our level of luck in fairness.

 

https://understat.com/league/epl

 

We are 19th based on it.

 

This tends to give you a feel for how it’s going. 

Just to put this into perspective, over the duration of a season and how many were relegated. 

 

23/24 - 3 clubs.

22/23 - 0 clubs. 
21/22 - 3 clubs.

20/21 - 2 clubs.

19/20 - 1 club.

18/19 - 2 clubs.

17/18 - 2 clubs.

16/17 - 2 clubs.

15/16 - 2 clubs.

14/15 - 2 clubs.

 

The season we went down was an outlier yes, however 19 out of 30 in the last 10 years have gone. 
 

It also had us finishing 4th and not 1st in 15/16 

[Pliskin]

7 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Not having a dig, but can you explain why you think the resources we have is better than 15th in the league?

The 5 points you’ve put together are basically just one thought rehashed in 5 different ways.

Our first 11 is okay, when everyone is fit and on form, but. I better than okay. Mads is probably the only player in the squad we have that could attract interest from a team pushing for a European place. The squad is then paper thin. 
The likes of Luke Thomas, BDCR, Edouard   And Daka are all going to have to be used at some point this season in games.

I think so far we’ve done as expected. The objective this season is just survival and then we have a foundation to build upon. It takes time to get back to where we were and we need to be patient. I don’t think chopping and changing the manager every 5 minutes is going to help with the big plan.

Because so far in spells we’ve shown the quality needed to compete at this level, but it hasn’t been consistent or sustained. There’s a good amount of experience in the team, and a reasonable amount of quality too. When you compare us to the teams around us, we’re actually underachieving In my opinion, because we’ve been in every game we’ve played but tactical blunders or mistakes (which I still out down to the lack of tactical plan than individual quality) have cost us goals, results and points. 
 

Your point about building foundations applies to the likes of Ipswich, but we managed to retain a good amount of experience and quality. Areas of the team do need addressing by which has been an issue for a number of years. Whereas I agree we need to rebuild, but the process isn’t as drastic as some seem to think on here, we’ve got a pretty good foundation already, because we recruited well last summer, and have added some quality this. 
 

It’s not about chopping and changing managers, Cooper was hired for damage limitation, impending points deductions and FFP issues restricted us, so we worked within our means at the time…… that has since changed, and we’re no longer bound like we were before……. So there’s no requirement for damage limitation anymore….. Cooper isn’t the man to rebuild the club, and he isn’t necessarily the man to guide us to safety…. This side proved how adaptable it is last season, and he’s struggling to even put together a basic plan that can last 90 minutes, and the multiple formation changes within 90 minutes also highlights the struggles Cooper is having with this side. 
 

If rather we have a coach who can maximise the potential in the squad, and who has a clear vision and plan to take forward. We would have gone for a more forward thinking manager had we not had the restrictions in the summer, but now they are no longer an issue I don’t see the point in continuing to gamble with Cooper…. 

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

8 hours ago, winteriscoming said:

Did Emery when he took over at Villa with them 3 points above the drop zone? 

He took over Villa when they had same points as us (I think) and Rodgers was under pressure here. Not sure Emery would have come here, but look at the different trajectory between the two clubs since…

[fox_up_north]

It's clear they're not getting rid. The transfer window definitely had some pretty big cock ups - Edouard and Bobby - but while our head is above water, he's staying. 

 

We lose 5-0 today and the argument is "well, it's Man United"

[Dahnsouff]

32 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

...

 

If rather we have a coach who can maximise the potential in the squad, and who has a clear vision and plan to take forward. We would have gone for a more forward thinking manager had we not had the restrictions in the summer, but now they are no longer an issue I don’t see the point in continuing to gamble with Cooper…. 

It is hard to argue we are gambling when we sit where we sit, which is you would assume above the pre-season expectations, but I do agree that the situation has changed massively and I strongly doubt we would have appointed Cooper had we had no potential points deduction, so therefore the only question the board would need to answer is both simple and unknowable.

• Would changing manager now likely provide a greater point return?

Any other reasons remain more intangible or personal opinion based and as long as the togetherness in the squad and the rate of gaining points is acceptable and I just cannot see any triggers being pulled as there is no reasonable cause to do so because

• Current trajectory, ignoring potential imminent downturn, is acceptable
• Why incur further costs of more staff churn?

However in terms of reasons for a change

• There is seemingly a statistical bomb waiting to go off and a return to a statistical norm would see us drop points against any simple future projection based on past results this season
• Related to the point above, the points gathered thus far have been against low quality teams, and this is going to change significantly seen

Personal takes

• The switch away from Enzo's rigorous tactical approach to Cooper's chaos is exceptionally jarring and concerning from a tactical capability perspective
• Unsure if Cooper is slow of thought or just very slowly methodical in terms of team selection

[Happy Fox]

40 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

It's clear they're not getting rid. The transfer window definitely had some pretty big cock ups - Edouard and Bobby - but while our head is above water, he's staying. 

 

We lose 5-0 today and the argument is "well, it's Man United"

Losing 5-0 to Manchester United who are only 2 points above us would be a sackable offense.

[murphy]

5 hours ago, winteriscoming said:

How can you say not really in danger of going down when they were only 3 points above the drop zone? We are an attractive proposition if we show some ambition. As I’ve stated before Leeds got Bielsa in the championship as did Wolves in getting Nuno. And Newcastle got Benitez in a relegation battle. This acceptance of keeping a mediocre championship level manager is baffling when there are so many better options available. 

Because they were established, not newly promoted, there were worse teams in the division and most of all, because it was only October.  They had just had a bad start.  Of course they could have gone down but their situation was not the same as ours. 

 

As it happens, I don't have any more faith in cooper than you do and I'm not advocating accepting anything.  I am just fed up of hearing about Aston villa and unai bloomin emery, as if there is some top manager out there just waiting for us to click our.fingers.  It is a meaningless comparison. 

[murphy]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

It's clear they're not getting rid. The transfer window definitely had some pretty big cock ups - Edouard and Bobby - but while our head is above water, he's staying. 

 

We lose 5-0 today and the argument is "well, it's Man United"

At least they were cheap cock ups. Blowing the budget on Oliver skipp was a head scratcher though.