Cooper - OUT

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

2 minutes ago, ALC Fox said:

Let's suspend a bit of disbelief: Imagine Cooper lasts the season and keeps us up (by a fingernail, presumably, if it were to happen at all).

 

Next season we start poorly and are unable to progress, but we're aiming to establish ourselves again rather than merely to survive, much in the same way Aston Villa wanted with Gerrard and now Emery. So Cooper's out.

 

If we were to follow the Villa blueprint, who is the Emery-like figure out there who can stabilise the team and get it competing in the top half of the table again?

 

By that, I'm looking at established figures with good records who maybe haven't had a chance with the really elite clubs or weren't given much leeway if they did step up to that level briefly.

 

My first thought is Gasperini. Second is Sarri.

 

But who else could fit the bill?

 

Galtier is in this bracket, shame he's a helmet

[Gamble92]

19 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Let’s not go down that road. It’s okay to have issues with his management and coaching style, but let’s not lower ourselves to this please…. 

It amazes me that this genuinely seems to be the main issue anyone has with him. 

 

I'm willing to bet if Corberan had exactly the same start as this, playing exactly the same way they'd be no thread like this. It'd all be about giving him time.

 

That's where Enzo and the like of him as a coach pull a masterclass. They drill home in interviews that there is a process and method so it doesn't matter if you're playing like shit and only just beating teams you're miles better than. It's a process. 

[sylofox]

41 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

This constantly repeat ridiculous argument undermines the  sensible points you have to  say. 
It just admits that moaning comes first, and context comes a distant second.

There is plenty to bash Cooper with, without trotting out tired and barely relevant statistics to be honest.

Not really. It points out it's just tree haters that hate him. The bulk of forest fans can't thank him enough for what he did for them. But still point out his tactics was his downfall and he's doing nothing about it.

 

I didn't want the, you hate him cos he's a tree comment.

[Wasyls Pec Deck]

53 minutes ago, Iwebema said:

Is this true? Didn't they just give him a new deal?

If Southampton are about to sack him we need to act now as we’ll be in competition for whoever is available

[ClaphamFox]

53 minutes ago, sylofox said:

Not really. It points out it's just tree haters that hate him. The bulk of forest fans can't thank him enough for what he did for them. But still point out his tactics was his downfall and he's doing nothing about it.

 

I didn't want the, you hate him cos he's a tree comment.

His reputation with Forest derives from his season in the Championship with them, when he took them from virtually bottom to play-off winners. The momentum created by that run spilled over into the following season, when he managed to just about win enough home games to keep them up despite an appalling away record. However, even in those home wins Forest seemed to rely more on a hostile atmosphere created by a partisan crowd than on an clear style of play or tactical approach.

If Cooper succeeds with us, it will be because he suddenly develops a tactical understanding of the game that he has not displayed so far in his career. I'm not saying that's impossible - people can learn, after all - but it doesn't give us a lot to pin our hopes on. 

Edited 24 September 2024 by ClaphamFox

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, FrankieADZ said:

tbf wasnt that reported in certain red top newspapers like 4/5 days ago

Which clearly said it was just players not being selected getting the arse. 

[Gamble92]

7 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

His reputation with Forest derives from his season in the Championship with them, when he took them from virtually bottom to play-off winners. The momentum created by that run spilled over into the following season, when he managed to just about win enough home games to keep them up despite an appalling away record. However, even in those home wins Forest seemed to rely more on a hostile atmosphere created by a partisan crowd than on an clear style of play or tactical approach.

If Cooper succeeds with us, it will be because he suddenly develops a tactical understanding of the game that he has not displayed so far in his career. I'm not saying that's impossible - people can learn, after all - but it doesn't give us a lot to pin our hopes on. 

You're right that he took a team that were actually looking like going down to League One under Houghton to the play offs and went up. I'm not sure though that you can call it "momentum" when the start they had to the following Premier League season was even worse than ours. 

 

He then completely turned that around and kept them up. 

 

It's very easy to spin whatever narrative you want. But calling it just momentum when they lost 4-0 to that Leicester team and went bottom of the league, is just simply not true. 

[ClaphamFox]

1 minute ago, Gamble92 said:

You're right that he took a team that were actually looking like going down to League One under Houghton to the play offs and went up. I'm not sure though that you can call it "momentum" when the start they had to the following Premier League season was even worse than ours. 

 

He then completely turned that around and kept them up. 

 

It's very easy to spin whatever narrative you want. But calling it just momentum when they lost 4-0 to that Leicester team and went bottom of the league, is just simply not true. 

Fair enough, but I was referring to the fact that the atmosphere generated by their promotion charge carried over into the PL campaign and was a large part of the reason they managed to win enough home games to stay up. The results may not have been there at the beginning, but the crowd remained on board and that helped them enormously. 

[Nuge]

18 hours ago, worth_the_wait said:

I've been impressed with just how many ex top class football players, coaches and managers we have here on this messageboard.

 

People who know so much about the game, and are able to make such confident judgements after just a few games.

 

We are truly blessed!    

I think this is a moot point tbh. Most of us having supported this club for a large part of our lives, I'd say we're in a pretty good position to judge. It seems Cooper hasn't even watched last years YouTube highlights. 

[Dahnsouff]

2 hours ago, sylofox said:

Not really. It points out it's just tree haters that hate him. The bulk of forest fans can't thank him enough for what he did for them. But still point out his tactics was his downfall and he's doing nothing about it.

 

I didn't want the, you hate him cos he's a tree comment.

Did I mention that?  

[sylofox]

9 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Did I mention that?  

Where did I say you did or would. It's a general reply from those that think he deserves to see out 90% of his contract.

[lcfcbluearmy]

On 23/09/2024 at 15:23, Babylon said:

You have to look at things from his and the clubs point of view, they've backed him in the market and quite a few of those came in late in the window. It's very easy for fans to chuck the baby out with the back water on a whim, but there are big cheques that need to be written to do it. And I think any decent club will give a manager time if they aren't disgracing themselves. IMO we're about a starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy away from picking up a win or so. 

It might not have been a thrilling start, but we've hardly disgraced ourselves. People keep going on about Everton like they are a total washout. They finished 14 points clear of relegation, without points deductions that was 22 points clear. They'd been 2-0 up against a very good Villa and Bournmouth (still leading 2-0 with 87 minutes on the clock). We were pants fair enough, and we should have gone with a more attacking line up considering the goals they have shipped, but it's not like they are a totally hopeless case we're playing. It's a comfortably mid table team from last season. 

starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy

 

If he does that I would be willing to give him more time, the trouble is I don't think he will. I hope he proves me wrong though 

[winteriscoming]

2 hours ago, ALC Fox said:

Let's suspend a bit of disbelief: Imagine Cooper lasts the season and keeps us up (by a fingernail, presumably, if it were to happen at all).

 

Next season we start poorly and are unable to progress, but we're aiming to establish ourselves again rather than merely to survive, much in the same way Aston Villa wanted with Gerrard and now Emery. So Cooper's out.

 

If we were to follow the Villa blueprint, who is the Emery-like figure out there who can stabilise the team and get it competing in the top half of the table again?

 

By that, I'm looking at established figures with good records who maybe haven't had a chance with the really elite clubs or weren't given much leeway if they did step up to that level briefly.

 

My first thought is Gasperini. Second is Sarri.

 

But who else could fit the bill?

If Palace can get Glasner Europa league winner who I wanted when Rodgers was fvcking it up then there’s no reason we can’t get someone with decent pedigree. 
Roger Schmidt is one who’s done well in various European countries. Linked before as has Sergio Conceicao both available. 
Niko Kovac 

Rudi Garcia 

Urs Fischer 

I think we should look at these this season as there’s no way Cooper is up to it. 

[sylofox]

1 minute ago, lcfcbluearmy said:

starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy

 

If he does that I would be willing to give him more time, the trouble is I don't think he will. I hope he proves me wrong though 

I don’t think he's got the bottle for that.

 

Also it would need a rule change for it to happen.

 

1 keeper

8 defenders/ midfielders

4 forwards.

[wardyfox86]

2 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

If Palace can get Glasner Europa league winner who I wanted when Rodgers was fvcking it up then there’s no reason we can’t get someone with decent pedigree. 
Roger Schmidt is one who’s done well in various European countries. Linked before as has Sergio Conceicao both available. 
Niko Kovac 

Rudi Garcia 

Urs Fischer 

I think we should look at these this season as there’s no way Cooper is up to it. 

Who was the last manager we appointed that had no previous experience of coaching or managing in England?

 

Do we lack imagination or is it a prerequisite? If so, it rules out all of these, plus 90% of all the fancy names that people keep referring to.

 

If he goes, it'll probably be somebody like Corberan or Rohl.

[wardyfox86]

6 minutes ago, sylofox said:

I don’t think he's got the bottle for that.

 

Also it would need a rule change for it to happen.

 

1 keeper

8 defenders/ midfielders

4 forwards.

..... and Jordan Ayew

FIFY

[volpeazzurro]

21 minutes ago, lcfcbluearmy said:

starting line up of Mav, Buonanotte, Fatawu and Vardy

 

If he does that I would be willing to give him more time, the trouble is I don't think he will. I hope he proves me wrong though 

That 4 easily picks itself (too early to judge Edouard). How can he not see that! Mavididi clearly had a great last season yet he dropped him for Reid why? Because he had a little bit of Premier League experience? How crap. No surprise to us he's delivered in the last three games, is Cooper bone idol, did he not study last seasons games? 

 

Fatawu whilst raw has to be a better prospect against a 39yr old fullback both attacking and defensively than the also ageing Ayew? Again, is Cooper blinded by the term Premier League experience? 

 

Buonanotte has made such a difference when he's come on and his stats prove it but again, Cooper has usually chosen to go with 3 defensive midfielders including Ndidi who like JJ constantly gives the ball away!

 

Vardy clearly picks himself with what we've got available. 

[Les-TA-Jon]

4 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

That 4 easily picks itself (too early to judge Edouard). How can he not see that! Mavididi clearly had a great last season yet he dropped him for Reid why? Because he had a little bit of Premier League experience? How crap. No surprise to us he's delivered in the last three games, is Cooper bone idol, did he not study last seasons games? 

 

Fatawu whilst raw has to be a better prospect against a 39yr old fullback both attacking and defensively than the also ageing Ayew? Again, is Cooper blinded by the term Premier League experience? 

 

Buonanotte has made such a difference when he's come on and his stats prove it but again, Cooper has usually chosen to go with 3 defensive midfielders including Ndidi who like JJ constantly gives the ball away!

 

Vardy clearly picks himself with what we've got available. 

To be fair I think a lot of people forget/miss/ignore the fact that in the first few games of the season we only had Vardy available as a striker (Cannon out on loan, Daka injured, Edouard not signed/ineligible), so he 'had' to leave Mavididi on the bench as cover

 

But I totally agree that now and especially in a game like Everton at home, he should be starting 3 or 4 of those 4 

Edited 24 September 2024 by Les-TA-Jon

[slymunn]

28 minutes ago, wardyfox86 said:

Who was the last manager we appointed that had no previous experience of coaching or managing in England?

Craig Levein 

 

But I'm pretty sure we've never appointed anyone outside of United Kingdom, without previous experience of coaching or managing in England.

[foxfan92]

5 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

That 4 easily picks itself (too early to judge Edouard). How can he not see that! Mavididi clearly had a great last season yet he dropped him for Reid why? Because he had a little bit of Premier League experience? How crap. No surprise to us he's delivered in the last three games, is Cooper bone idol, did he not study last seasons games? 

 

Fatawu whilst raw has to be a better prospect against a 39yr old fullback both attacking and defensively than the also ageing Ayew? Again, is Cooper blinded by the term Premier League experience? 

 

Buonanotte has made such a difference when he's come on and his stats prove it but again, Cooper has usually chosen to go with 3 defensive midfielders including Ndidi who like JJ constantly gives the ball away!

 

Vardy clearly picks himself with what we've got available. 

I've not got an issue with Ayew.

 

He's nowhere near as exciting as Mav or Fatawu, and I've had issues with his positioning a few times, making us narrower than we need to be, but he seems to hold up the ball okay, and could offer us something different if we played a more attack minded team elsewhere.

 

I think Ayew could work if we played Ricardo because it would allow Ricardo to give us width on the right, as he surges forward, but and this is my biggest issue with Cooper, while our full backs have been far from great, Ricky hasn't had a single minute of play in the first 5 games. His name should be one of the first on the team sheet.

 

I just feel like Cooper has this conservative  mindset with a certain  system he wants to implement, regardless of whether that means sacrificing our best players to try to fit his philosophy. 

 

I was hoping from what we were told before he came, that Cooper would be more adaptable, because I feel the best managers alter their own playing style to suit the players they have and develop a system that compliments them, while Cooper looks out of his depth and stubbornly refusing to adapt to our strengths.

 

We knew Eveton were there for the taking. On top of how poor they've been they had real weaknesses at the back, with their fullbacks positions we should have been testing from the off, but we didn't set up to take advantage of that. 

 

There are so many alarm bells ringing. I believe managers need time to get the best out of their players, and should be given time to do so, but there are so many of these alarm bells ringing I worry the more time he is given the more damage is being done.

[Gamble92]

If you genuinely hate Forest like I do then you'd want nothing more than for him to be a success here. It pissed every single Forest fan off that I know to the point they were having breakdowns about it all over social media.

 

If he fails then they'll be the old agent Cooper bollocks coming out. 

[markko]

On 23/09/2024 at 08:03, SafewayFox said:

Thanks Mrs Cooper 😘

Brilliant thoughtful response.

[markko]

On 23/09/2024 at 08:29, Pliskin said:

He has been given a chance and failed. 
 

He is way out of his depth and Saturday just highlighted this. 
 

Im sorry, but there’s no defence for not attacking a 39 year old left back, and then deciding to bring Fatawu on with 88 minutes on the clock, and on his weaker side and proceed to leave Ayew on who’s completely infective.

 

Cooper is a shocking coach, and a hideous manager. He has got a pretty decent team at his disposal and he can’t even get the basics right. 
 

He should never have been appointed, it’s a monumental mistake by the club and they need to recognise this mistake very quickly and correct it. If they’ve got any sense they will be talking to his potential replacement now, and have him gone after the Walsall game. We will not win a single PL game under Cooper he’s simply well out of his depth. 

5 games. If we win tonight we have lost twice all season. Stats can be twisted to suit if you look hard enough. The club employed him. He was probably cheap and available and actually wanted the job. We do not know about injuries/ attitude/ bugs/ tactics. You may be right but you cannot just keep sacking people. Mandaric did that and look what happened.

[DezFox]

3 minutes ago, markko said:

5 games. If we win tonight we have lost twice all season. Stats can be twisted to suit if you look hard enough. The club employed him. He was probably cheap and available and actually wanted the job. We do not know about injuries/ attitude/ bugs/ tactics. You may be right but you cannot just keep sacking people. Mandaric did that and look what happened.

By sacking steve cooper, it does not put us in the frame of a team that is just sacking people. We literally keep hold of managers longer than we should, did not sack our last manager, and had a pretty good track record of hiring the right candidate. It’s ok to sack someone who clearly I isn’t the  right appointment. It won’t impact our reputation at all. It may even help it given the circumstance. 

[Muzzy_no7]

10 minutes ago, DezFox said:

By sacking steve cooper, it does not put us in the frame of a team that is just sacking people. We literally keep hold of managers longer than we should, did not sack our last manager, and had a pretty good track record of hiring the right candidate. It’s ok to sack someone who clearly I isn’t the  right appointment. It won’t impact our reputation at all. It may even help it given the circumstance. 

No.

 

We held onto Brenda for WAY too long.

 

This is a one-off and blatant error by the club. We would be right to rectify it immediately and cut the faff.