Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[Rogstanley]

43 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Liberté, égalité, fraternité. 

 

She proved she held all of those values in absolute contempt when she refused to shake the hand of her citizenship officer. Well done France. 

Liberty

the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's behaviour or political views

 

Equality

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities

 

Fraternity

a group of people sharing a common profession or interests.

 

 

I'll give you fraternity (which is pretty meaningless (and, let's face it, a bit gay) anyway even within mono-cultural societies), but there's no way what she did shows she holds liberty and equality in contempt. If anything it is the French authorities holding those values in contempt.

Edited 22 April 2018 by Rogstanley

[Nick]

16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Liberty

the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's behaviour or political views

 

Equality

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities

 

Fraternity

a group of people sharing a common profession or interests.

 

 

I'll give you fraternity (which is pretty meaningless (and, let's face it, a bit gay) anyway even within mono-cultural societies), but there's no way what she did shows she holds liberty and equality in contempt. If anything it is the French authorities holding those values in contempt.

I work with a number of Islamic women who don’t shake my hand or greet with a hug or a kiss on the cheek. I found it a bit odd at first as I was left hanging more than once with my hand out! But people can do or believe what they want (I have good personal and professional relationships with all these people and highly respect them despite not necessarily agreeing with their life choices) - the very idea of denying citizenship on this basis simply demonstrates a daft lack of awareness and appreciation for other cultures, diversity and inclusion.

[Kopfkino]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Citizenship is a privilege,  

not a right.

 

Why should they hand it out to people who don't believe in the most basic of Western values?

 

I would have thought religious freedom was far higher on the list of basic Western values than a handshake

[fuchsntf]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

Citizenship is a privilege,  

not a right.

 

Why should they hand it out to people who don't believe in the most basic of Western values?

Handshake is neither a basic,or natural value within Western Europe..

[Nick]

Some true colours being shown again by the regular suspects ?

[fuchsntf]

11 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

I work with a number of Islamic women who don’t shake my hand or greet with a hug or a kiss on the cheek. I found it a bit odd at first as I was left hanging more than once with my hand out! But people can do or believe what they want (I have good personal and professional relationships with all these people and highly respect them despite not necessarily agreeing with their life choices) - the very idea of denying citizenship on this basis simply demonstrates a daft lack of awareness and appreciation for other cultures, diversity and inclusion.

An handshake is a Gesture ,but its denial is not a lack of acceptance,

it only became some sort of norm,going Into the 70s,my fathers (WWII) Generation

Salt of the earth Wclass,would not greet all and sundry with an handshake.

Not even Mclass women,would offer the Hand ,Outsider family and friends,a short while back.

Racism and "ism"  is actually rife in civil servants ,authorities and their ilk,more than anywhere elseW ithin our so called modern societies.

Dont forget,even locals around UK and Europe rightly so,do not offer their Hand freely.

Some etiquette of thought and translation has been forgotten,so ignorance is also rife,

within the educated

Edited 22 April 2018 by fuchsntf

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Liberty

the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's behaviour or political views

Her very reasons for refusing the handshake were based on oppressive restrictions imposed on her by her religion. Behaviour  and views that the French austerities felt were incompatible with France. 

 

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Equality

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities

She made it quite clear that felt she was not equal to the man performing the ceremony. 

 

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

Fraternity

a group of people sharing a common profession or interests.

 

 

I'll give you fraternity (which is pretty meaningless (and, let's face it, a bit gay) anyway even within mono-cultural societies), but there's no way what she did shows she holds liberty and equality in contempt. If anything it is the French authorities holding those values in contempt.

The handshake is one of the most common social customs not just in France, but around the world. It's a greeting, a congratulations, a thank you. It's also a sign of equality and respect. If she wants to become a French citizen she should sign up to those values. 

 

But she refuses; so why should the French authorities let her become one of them when she clearly doesn't want to?

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

1) Her very reasons for refusing the handshake were based on oppressive restrictions imposed on her by her religion. Behaviour  and views that the French austerities felt were incompatible with France. 

 

2) She made it quite clear that felt she was not equal to the man performing the ceremony. 

 

The handshake is one of the most common social customs not just in France, but around the world. It's a greeting, a congratulations, a thank you. It's also a sign of equality and respect. If she wants to become a French citizen she should sign up to those values. 

 

3) But she refuses; so why should the French authorities let her become one of them when she clearly doesn't want to?

1) A religion that she has chosen and by definition a society that values liberty should be against restrictions being placed on people based on their choices

 

2) Handshakes are no more a sign of equality and respect than a polite smile, a wave or a "hello". In reality it is just a greeting that can easily be replaced by something else with no harm done to either party.

 

3) They don't have to, if they don't want to. It's up to them to decide whether they value things like diversity and inclusion in their society. If they want a strictly mono-cultural society where everybody must subscribe to the same limited set of arbitrary 'values' or else become ostracised then that's up to them. But don't start saying it's about liberty and equality because by definition it's obviously not those things. You'd have a tough job defining it as anything other than bigotry to be honest.

Edited 22 April 2018 by Rogstanley

[Stadt]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

1) A religion that she has chosen and by definition a society that values liberty should be against restrictions being placed on people based on their choices

Chosen? I don't think people growing up in very orthodox religious families really get a choice.

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I would have thought religious freedom was far higher on the list of basic Western values than a handshake

Who is denying her religious freedom? You can be French and Muslim. There are millions of them.

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

Some true colours being shown again by the regular suspects ?

Thought exactly the same. It's astounding what people will tolerate or not tolerate in the name of diversity.

 

Was a bit miffed by you explanation though, a peck on the cheek certainly isn't comparable to hands touching.

 

They would never say it imagine what someome actually thinks of you if they won't even shake your hand? I've probably worked with 150-200 Muslims and that situation has never occurred - maybe I've been lucky.

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Her very reasons for refusing the handshake were based on oppressive restrictions imposed on her by her religion. Behaviour  and views that the French austerities felt were incompatible with France. 

 

She made it quite clear that felt she was not equal to the man performing the ceremony. 

 

The handshake is one of the most common social customs not just in France, but around the world. It's a greeting, a congratulations, a thank you. It's also a sign of equality and respect. If she wants to become a French citizen she should sign up to those values. 

 

But she refuses; so why should the French authorities let her become one of them when she clearly doesn't want to?

The weirdest thing about this is how some seem to think its the French who should change rather than the person to aquire French citizenship. 

 

Almost like it's the person doing the nation a favour rather than the other way around. What a strange way to view it all.

 

Is there actually any clarification that a Muslim women cannot shake the hand of a male? I thought this stuff was about to die off with IS etc.

[FoxesDeb]

I hate shaking hands with people, I'm always wondering if their hands are clean and what germs they're passing on to me. Besides, it's not very ladylike. 

[CarbonVirtine]

Shaking hands is not part of the citizenship requirements. She presumably met all of the prescribed requirements so to deny citizenship on the basis of that is at best churlish; she put some bureaucrat's nose out of joint.

 

By all means call her rude or ungrateful (not that I would) but to go introducing arbitrary after-the-fact rules is simply wrong IMO.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I hate shaking hands with people, I'm always wondering if their hands are clean and what germs they're passing on to me. Besides, it's not very ladylike. 

I'm with you on that, I have shook hands with some people then immediately headed for the nearest sink to wash hands.

[Kopfkino]

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

Who is denying her religious freedom? You can be French and Muslim. There are millions of them.

 

She doesn't have religious freedom if she is only able to practice it the way the French want her to. The French are free to choose social norms over absolute religious freedom, I don't have a problem with that. But the problem lies in using Western values to justify it. Freedom and liberty are supposed to form part of those values, in fact they're probably the most commonly cited. But really it's freedom to act within a Western ideal, which itself makes a mockery of supposed Western values. Why not just admit you (not aimed at anyone) have a problem with parts of the Islamic faith rather than hide behind some malleable discourse.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Kopfkino said:

She doesn't have religious freedom if she is only able to practice it the way the French want her to. The French are free to choose social norms over absolute religious freedom, I don't have a problem with that. But the problem lies in using Western values to justify it. Freedom and liberty are supposed to form part of those values, in fact they're probably the most commonly cited. But really it's freedom to act within a Western ideal, which itself makes a mockery of supposed Western values. Why not just admit you (not aimed at anyone) have a problem with parts of the Islamic faith rather than hide behind some malleable discourse.

Why does it always come down to this? Silly accusations of supposed anti-Muslim sentiment because you don't believe a country should bend over to accommodate others beliefs?

 

If a bible bashing American came over to Europe and claimed he couldn't shake hands with a gay guy because of what was written in his religious book then I'd be totally behind a liberal democracy denying them citizenship as well. Same goes for anyone else in any other part of the World.

[Kopfkino]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why does it always come down to this? Silly accusations of supposed anti-Muslim sentiment because you don't believe a country should bend over to accommodate others beliefs?

 

If a bible bashing American came over to Europe and claimed he couldn't shake hands with a gay guy because of what was written in his religious book then I'd be totally behind a liberal democracy denying them citizenship as well. Same goes for anyone else in any other part of the World.

 

It's not bending over to accommodate beliefs, it is upholding your own supposed beliefs. If you believe in freedom and liberty then her practising her religious beliefs should not cause any issues in something as harmless as not shaking a man's hand. That France has chosen to set a legal obligation to prevent someone expressing rights over their body cannot possibly be defended with 'Western values'.

 

I made sure to not make it relevant to any particular person knowing that is the sort of response that would come. I think it requires a degree of denial to say her faith doesn't play a part in how people react to her.

[Webbo]

It shouldn't be compulsory to shake anyone's hand, in any circumstances.

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Why does it always come down to this? Silly accusations of supposed anti-Muslim sentiment because you don't believe a country should bend over to accommodate others beliefs?

 

If a bible bashing American came over to Europe and claimed he couldn't shake hands with a gay guy because of what was written in his religious book then I'd be totally behind a liberal democracy denying them citizenship as well. Same goes for anyone else in any other part of the World.

 

"Astounding tolerance"

"Bending over to accommdate beliefs"

 

Get a grip. We're talking about a woman who doesn't want to shake hands. It makes **** all difference to anyone except the poor woman, whose only crime is to be religious. To borrow a phrase of yours (which you used when trying to deflect criticism from Trump for praising the far right a few months back), you'd think the world had no real problems to deal with.

 

And it's ironic you use the phrase bending over given how eager your ilk are to get bent over by big business. Sure, put you in front of a solitary female immigrant and you are the big men on campus, double hard take-no-shit 'let's get rowdy' bastards. But watch how quickly your 'values' shrivel and disappear when coming up against the tiniest bit of power. Says it all really doesn't it.

Edited 22 April 2018 by Rogstanley

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

Is a handshake even the traditional French greeting? 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

On 20/04/2018 at 20:22, urban.spaceman said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43839655

 

If you are so strongly opposed to the most basic cultural norm of the country you want to live in, you don’t deserve to live in it. 

 

Okay... but why place it in this thread? 

 

Is she an ‘absolute ****’ for not shaking hands with someone? 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

And to add one final point...

 

... it would have been quite easy to accept some other form of acknowledging gesture - like a bow, nod, or curtesy. 

 

Yeah, the non-shaking hands thing is a crap Muslim tradition that needs moving forward with the times, but this women isn’t solely at fault for that, just let people be unless they’re causing a massive issue.

[Dr The Singh]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

I'm with you on that, I have shook hands with some people then immediately headed for the nearest sink to wash hands.

Was that after you pissed on them?

Edited 22 April 2018 by Dr The Singh

[Dr The Singh]

I'm confused, french custom is drinking wine and eating loads of garlic and wearing a beret, so out of the 3, she doesn't do 2.  So she should go, this shaking a hand is nonsense.