Students

[Tilley]

Handing +1's out for fun in this thread.

[Houdini Logic]

Agree with what Tommy G is saying. I myself find myself studying a professional qualification that will actually get me somewhere in my career and has future prospects.

Too many people that I know of have ended up fumbling into some tinpot university going to study geography becuase they got semi-decent grades at A Level etc.

If anything it should enhance the value of a degree.

Actually the one person I know that studied Geography is now an Officer in the Intelligence Corp

[breadandcheese]

Bread and Cheese - I think giving more people the chance to apply to university will enable the Universities to select the best people for the right degree - so if the university decides an applicant has something to offer at 90 then yes

So you believe that everyone should have the right to be taught free of charge for the whole of their lives. What would happen if every member of society decided that all they wanted to do was learn because it's their right?

[Houdini Logic]

So you believe that everyone should have the right to be taught free of charge for the whole of their lives. What would happen if every member of society decided that all they wanted to do was learn because it's their right?

Did you even read my reply?!

[Tommy G]

Stop crying in this thread Houdini.

If you were self secure in your decision about the value of degree's then you wouldn't feel the need to Justify the fees charged.

It will be £10k extra for example, that's penuts over a 40 year working life surely? Especially with the fantastic job opportunities that a degree nets you.

You don't start paying it back until YOU EARN OVER £20 odd K FFS!! How is that discriminating the poor??

[Houdini Logic]

Stop crying in this thread Houdini.

If you were self secure in your decision about the value of degree's then you wouldn't feel the need to Justify the fees charged.

It will be £10k extra for example, that's penuts over a 40 year working life surely? Especially with the fantastic job opportunities that a degree nets you.

You don't start paying it back until YOU EARN OVER £20 odd K FFS!! How is that discriminating the poor??

Ahh.. Crying... that must be what I was doing - I thought I was attempting to debate with people who seem to be generally angry in life.

So I assume that you think the extra debt won't put anyone off studying a degree?

[Zingari]

Zingari - I appreciate we have a deficit but at what point do you stop cutting? We can't get rid of absolutely everything - we still do have at least one or two people paying taxes you know. So it's all just a case of prioritising, and I personally feel that education should be one of the items at the top of the list.

I'd rather the money was put into keeping education free than the £5Billion we spend on Conflicts each year (or insert example of similar waste of money here)

Dickie Greenleaf - your argument is embarrassing - you're suggesting that people are 'missing the purpose of universities as research institutions filled with the brightest talents of the future', which is exactly what Universities won't be if you price out a percentage of the population - they'll be full of people with money, not people with brains.

Bread and Cheese - I think giving more people the chance to apply to university will enable the Universities to select the best people for the right degree - so if the university decides an applicant has something to offer at 90 then yes

Tommy G - Read The Sun per chance?

The discussion really isn't about cutting out education though , it's about those who have graduated into higher paying jobs paying more towards it after their subsequent graduation .

Education ( and health ) will still be at the top of the public spending list regardless of this increase . and as far as i'm aware every young person still has access to higher education , but granted , with a greater burden of responsibility that comes with it .

I'm not sure this extra responsibility to society that provides is such a bad thing

Basically this gov ( and hopefully all others )are just trying to get the balance right between a free for all system that encourages irresponsibility towards education (and in turn society ) and an exclusive system that means on the rich prosper .

Maybe in a few years time the rules can be relaxed a little again , but in the meantime I don't think these measures are totally unfair

[Father Ted]

Would you like to explain to me what part of University education was a "free ride?"

From what I gathered, Tommy G was referring to the free riders in economical terms but he clearly doesn't know what he's on about because a university place isn't a public good because the student has to pay for it themselves so there are no free riders.

[Webbo]

Ahh.. Crying... that must be what I was doing - I thought I was attempting to debate with people who seem to be generally angry in life.

We're not the ones rioting.

[Houdini Logic]

The discussion really isn't about cutting out education though , it's about those who have graduated into higher paying jobs paying more towards it after their subsequent graduation .

Education ( and health ) will still be at the top of the public spending list regardless of this increase . and as far as i'm aware every young person still has access to higher education , but granted , with a greater burden of responsibility that comes with it .

I'm not sure this extra responsibility to society that provides is such a bad thing

Basically this gov ( and hopefully all others )are just trying to get the balance right between a free for all system that encourages irresponsibility towards education (and in turn society ) and an exclusive system that means on the rich prosper .

Maybe in a few years time the rules can be relaxed a little again , but in the meantime I don't think these measures are totally unfair

But your argument relies on the assumption that not one person will be put off by the increase in debt - do you genuinely believe that?

[Finnegan]

Having just finished uni, I'd have to say it is a myth that Student's have a hard time. Compared with when my parents went, its unrecognisable by the sounds of it. They were lucky if they could go to the pub a couple of times a week and wouldn't ever be able to eat out and stuff. Nowadays I see birds walking round with Louis Vuitton and Marc Jacobs handbags and know dudes who had football season tickets every year

Yes but those kids are likely either massively in their overdrafts and hugely in debt or being floated from home by well off parents who are contributing to their fees / accommodation and allowing them to pay their rent. I had a fair few people like that on my course. But when I went my loan covered my accommodation and only about £200 was left over per half-year. I had to work or I'd have starved.

I know a girl at university at the moment whose loan doesn't even cover her full board.

There will always be kids spuffing away their student loans. But at the end of the day that doesn't matter, because that's a different payment to the one that pays for your FEES. It's the fees we're discussing here and they're paid long before the greasy, snotty, pretentious little wankers burn the rest of their money (MONEY THEY HAVE TO PAY BACK) on half the contents of Camden market.

This I agree with. In an ideal world, university education would be free. Unfortunately, we have a debt that we have to service so cuts have to be made. It's not a happy thing but it is necessary.

Indeed. I'm pretty sure no matter what your political background, unless you're an upper class snob who actively wants to see education made elite for the wealthy, there's no excuse for wanting to see greatly hiked fees. They may be necessary but they should never be viewed as ideal in a utopia.

People still have a choice don't they? I had the choice, I was academically able to go to uni. But instead I'm currently being paid to study, whilst having about £5k of course fees paid for me.

I'm not a smug **** or anything, I consider my self lucky to have made the right choice and not the follow the "norm".

But hey, if people want to study film at Winchester and want to pay to do it then fine. Don't come crying to me when your degree is worth the equivalent of a bag of pork scratchings in 10 years time.

Another annoying thing is the moaning society, just get the fook on with life and work hard and you'll be fine.

See, as with before, there's a lot of your post I agree with. I agree with your work ethic, I agree with your point on mickey mouse degrees (I'm a walking example of that, I hugely regret my choice of course, one of the most immature decisions of my life to date) and I fully agree that there are alternatives to further education.

I also fully agree that it's down to individual choice.

What I don't understand is why you seem to feel glad that fees got upped so drastically? Could all of those complaints not be remedied by a more focused emphasis on future-planning being taught pre-16? More emphasis on apprenticeships, preparation of CVs, learning about an effective job search and having proper careers advice - not that patronizing "Let's fill in a form and see what job you should do" nonsense.

[Tommeh]

Really have no idea which way to go with this. Embarrased by and for the ****** tearing up London yet the attitude of the "ohhh look at me I know a trade, work full time, pay my taxes" etc. etc. Is cringy as fvck.

[Matt]

In summary Matt has a massive fuck off chip on his shoulder.

Might do but i'm stating the truth at the end of the day, yet many others are saying the same things (Even actual uni students - Who I do believe are going uni for the right reasons, also with TommyG - Yet they havn't got chips on their shoulders? )

in all fairness though , taxpayers do tend to get pretty pissed off with waste on such a massive scale ,

the education system has become somewhat of a sacred cow

Exactly, Taxpayers also tend to get pisses off when these spoilt brats go out on a rampage and who has to pay for them at uni aswell as to clean up after them? Taxpayers.

as an employer i have more time for someone who has worked from 16 than someone who has swaned around at college/uni for years with a year off in thailand to find themselves.in my experience too many graduates have very little work ethic, belive that their education makes them better than the proles and that they have a right to have a good job.matt is right.and dont get me started on pissing on the cenotaph.fook em.

Exactly again, We have an apprentice at work, he's 16 and a lazy little shit, slowly we are shaping him into a worker but slowly it is and have a long way to go, I hear something about the leaving age being pushed up to 18, not sure how true it is just something we discussed and someone said at work the other day, atleast people going into work (That want to go into work) at the age of 16 will be in the 'working mould' yet rasing the age to 18 will miss out of 2 years of this education in itself.

I'm glad the tuition fees have gone up, get rid of the free ride society.

Statistically people will earn more if they have a degree so quit moaning.

Maybe the increase in fees can pay for embaressment of last nights antics.

Most people's opinions of students will have nose dived after yday, whether it was the minority or not people still read the headlines

Can't agree with you more, I'm raising the same points (Maybe in different words but the same point at the end of the day) yet I have a chip on my soulder.

The decision to go through with this has just proven to me that there is actually 0% point in voting in a general election. Tory Labour or Liberal they always end up doing the opposite of the pre election policys.

Welcome to something I realised years ago, Promising everything delivering nothing, I wasn't going to vote this year but got convinced you're wasting a vote, you must vote, blah, blah, blah, well I did vote, Conservative.

Would you like to explain to me what part of University education was a "free ride?"

Our fees were already disproportionately high, I went the very last year before Labour hiked the prices and now they've gone up again.

It isn't free, you know. A grant is a "free ride", a loan is something you have to pay back. Accommodation costs, courses cost, books and study aids cost, I don't know any students who are rolling in it (unless they're floated by their parents, which is another issue.)

Everybody seems to forget the fact that it is A LOAN. One that isn't exactly free of interest, either, the government (and the tax payer) do see the money back again at the other end you know?

All that tax dodger shit used to irk me when I was at MDX. I had a job whilst I studied in London, I did both, I had to to get by - as did plenty of people on my course and in my halls.

Nobody - I repeat - NOBODY should be happy to see university prices going up. If they are happy, they don't understand the facts, end of. Whether or not it's essential in times of recession is another matter - but that doesn't exactly mean we should be cheerful about it. Seriously, anyone celebrating this bill is a ****.

I've agreed with points raised by Matt and Tommy G in the past, I do think our school system should be churning out more people who are fit and prepared for work at sixteen without feeling the need to get into university and I do think people should be discouraged from taking stupid, mickey-mouse courses that are relevant to diddly shit. But hiking up prices for higher education flat across the board is a fucking shit, lazy way of fixing said issue.

Tax dodger things should perhaps be looked into, If you work whilst going to uni perhaps your should get a 'benefit' type scheme, I'm not sure but if you work whilst studying fair play to you, I reiterate my point once again with that chip on my shoulder that I don't mind people going to uni FOR THE RIGHT REASONS, and if you work whilst at Uni no quarms, well done to you.

For the record I'm glad I voted Tory!

What is so difficult to digest about having to pay for something that will benefit you later in life (without going into the argument about micky mouse degree's/uni's)

People still have a choice don't they? I had the choice, I was academically able to go to uni. But instead I'm currently being paid to study, whilst having about £5k of course fees paid for me.

I'm not a smug **** or anything, I consider my self lucky to have made the right choice and not the follow the "norm".

But hey, if people want to study film at Winchester and want to pay to do it then fine. Don't come crying to me when your degree is worth the equivalent of a bag of pork scratchings in 10 years time.

Another annoying thing is the moaning society, just get the fook on with life and work hard and you'll be fine.

I don't give a crap about the controversy of any post on here, I would rather be in my position than any other grad I know at the min. Plus 20k better off.

Up the Tories

Can't add much more, agree word for word once again.

Well as I voted Lib Dem you can see my frustration. I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it again.

Like I said, Welcome to something I realised years ago.

Agree with what Tommy G is saying. I myself find myself studying a professional qualification that will actually get me somewhere in my career and has future prospects.

Too many people that I know of have ended up fumbling into some tinpot university going to study geography becuase they got semi-decent grades at A Level etc.

If anything it should enhance the value of a degree.

Well done, The type of students and people that are going to uni for the right reasons, the people that aren't going for the right reasons just to toss it off, delay work for a few years, do it for the sake of doing, going for the uni experience are the people to blame not the taxpayers moaning, not the government, not anyone else.

[Matt]

It will enhance the value of the degree. The layabouts who wanted a 2:1 in Strongbow will now have to justify spending £6k on it instead.

Some people say "I'm going to go to university because I'm not sure what to do in life?"

I'm sorry but that is bullshit. There is also time to go to university in later life when you have exhausted other options. A £20k stop gap, do we want to people who can't make these kind of decisions going onto FE?

Degree's use to be for the elite and degree's had value, unfortunately over the past decade the value has shot down unless you are at a red brick.

"Education for all" is brilliant in theory, but not at the expense of my taxes thank you very much. Stick the money in the NHS not in the Student Union at Telford Poly

Thats it, If you want to go to uni and you are going for a reason - to get a career and follow it up, where is their worry? They will make it back, That will be fine, If they aren't going to get a career and just going for the sake of going then more fool them for wasting that amount of money at the end of it all.

I swear though that the real motive behind some people's general dislike for university, students who go there and the degrees they choose is just sour grapes - because they didn't get the chance to go, or the grades, or regret not going, or whatever. And said people are obviously going to revel in the fact that it's now harder for students to afford to go.

What makes you qualified to judge which degrees have value and which don't? I'll be doing Religious Studies at Uni, am I wasting my life?

Of course, I could always go for the alternative and take up a trade or something, but the successive miserable posts from Matt in the 'How was your day' thread portraying the in's and out's of such employment over the years have safely put me off that idea for life. No thanks.

Can't say i'm too miserable in that thread, especially about work, I was quite miserable when I was out of work for a while that was quite a boring and low point (As anyone would be really) but regards commenting about work in that thread don't think I even comment too much on the subject.

Will you be wasting your life doing religious studies at uni? Only you can answer that, will you be following it up, doing a career, a well earning career and something you enjoy? On the face of it can't think it would lead to too much, and IMO it would be a boring subject (But that is personal opinion, you obviously enjoy the subject and you need to enjoy what you do).

[ajthefox]

Im fooking sick to death of hearing from people talking about uni being a free ride saying that students are all wasters, that uni is a free ride and that I should either do some work or get a job because apparently I need you to tell me that life isn't easy and that you have to work hard for stuff. get the Fvck down off your pedestalls and stop being so patronising. There might be some people who don't make the most of university but the prejudice some people hold against students is ridiculous and is based on a minority. I guess it's just easy to ignore the amount of graduates who actually make up some of the most importat professions in the country who contribute a hell of a lot more than the tax spent on educating them and use the minority of those who don't succeed as an excuse for a 300% increase in fees.

[Zingari]

But your argument relies on the assumption that not one person will be put off by the increase in debt - do you genuinely believe that?

not at all

i quite agree with you that some unfortunate people will indeed have to find work ( at least in the short term ) rather than go on to get higher education and that is sad but given the situation of the countries finances , it's just that , ; unfortunate .

But I really cannot believe that this small number if they have the ambition and genuine desire for further education , will totally lose out with a little application on their own part ( ie Open Uni. etc )

[Steven]

The decision to go through with this has just proven to me that there is actually 0% point in voting in a general election. Tory Labour or Liberal they always end up doing the opposite of the pre election policys.

Which essentially means there is no democracy in the UK. <_<

[Finnegan]

Which essentially means there is no democracy in the UK. <_<

Try telling that to Aung San Suu Kyi, Liu Xiao Bo or Tenzin Gyatso. I'm pretty sure they'd brain you.

[l444ry]

Do people not yet appreciate that this is not about saving money but about ensuring that "the right type of people" get to go to University (millionaires children).

Imagine you are a Gideon or a Dave at University and having to share lecture theatres and education with people from "lesser backgrounds". It must be stopped. Higher education is for the upper classes. Plenty of jobs in factories or cleaning the streets for everybody else (even if it now has to be as a volunteer in a "Big Society).

[Benji]

Tier the whole thing up.

1. Free education: required jobs - social workers, nurses, teachers, etc

2. Financial help: beneficial to society - professionals, lawyers, doctors, accountants, (proper) business students, other subjects with high employment rates, basically the people you expect to pay back into the tax system within a few years of leaving uni

3. Pay yourself: the rest

Doesn't really bother me that it inherently discriminates, it would save a fortune without 'axing' the (I hate the term) Mickey Mouse subjects. The choice is there, but you have to accept that the state will not fund you if you're not going to give something back.

Let's just get to God Damn basics and spend on teachers, teacher-student contact time and libraries. Otherwise the whole system will become one massive joke.

[Steven]

Try telling that to Aung San Suu Kyi, Liu Xiao Bo or Tenzin Gyatso. I'm pretty sure they'd brain you.

I am sure they would understand coming from a country where you can say something but your voice is not heard.

[Steven]

Do people not yet appreciate that this is not about saving money but about ensuring that "the right type of people" get to go to University (millionaires children).

Imagine you are a Gideon or a Dave at University and having to share lecture theatres and education with people from "lesser backgrounds". It must be stopped. Higher education is for the upper classes. Plenty of jobs in factories or cleaning the streets for everybody else (even if it now has to be as a volunteer in a "Big Society).

It is already happening and has been for a while.

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/oxford-university-dream-too-far-black-students

[Tommy G]

Benji states an ideal world but unfortunately that won't happen because it "discriminates" against 2010 courses such as a degree in McDonalds.

There is an even more desperate course in "Magazine Journalism" if you want to become a journo then do a degree in ENGLISH

How the current journo's coped who write the current rags god only knows, bet they were lost without those kind of subjects around

[lildave3]

I'll be doing Religious Studies at Uni, am I wasting my life?

100% yes. What the hell does that even lead to??

[Nick]

I swear though that the real motive behind some people's general dislike for university, students who go there and the degrees they choose is just sour grapes - because they didn't get the chance to go, or the grades, or regret not going, or whatever. And said people are obviously going to revel in the fact that it's now harder for students to afford to go.

What makes you qualified to judge which degrees have value and which don't? I'll be doing Religious Studies at Uni, am I wasting my life?

Of course, I could always go for the alternative and take up a trade or something, but the successive miserable posts from Matt in the 'How was your day' thread portraying the in's and out's of such employment over the years have safely put me off that idea for life. No thanks.

100% No Asha (though i appreciate the question is rhetorical) - RS is an amazing subject, If I could return to University now I'd choose that or philosophy.