Slovenia v England 11/10/16 7.45

[Parafox]

We have to face facts, We don't have the players to produce results at international level. The whole set up of the Premier league is to blame for England being where they are. Money and greed have degenerated our English players. All the PL want is money and that comes from attracting the worlds best players so they can sell the \PL worldwide. The FA and the PL don't care about the national side. It produces very little income for them.

[Donut]

1 minute ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

Why aren't we producing those players? Surely this is the question that needs answering... 

I would say because the skills we believe are needed to thrive in "our" football arent the ones that win games at the highest highest level.

 

What technically brilliant players to we produce? we produce players with physicality, athleticism, power......sure those things are important of course they are

 

Do we produce players who can unlock the door with a quality pass? do we produce intelligent players? players who can dribble past players on the inside and outside, with both feet? very very few.

 

And i think its because we dont put an importance on attributes like this.

 

Young players being loaned out is seen as a "hardening up" process....to put them up against rugged hackers from Southend United and Chesterfield.

 

Probably out attitudes as fans dont help either. Would you get disgruntled if you saw Leicester passing the ball for 15 passes, patiently waiting for an opening to exploit? people dont want to see that even though we need to develop players who are all technically good enough to do this.

 

[Ozwin]

Get Bielsa in, give him free reign to do what he wants grass roots wise and be done with it.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, Costock_Fox said:

Nope, see the part about clueless people in the FA.    If you keep doing the same thing you will get the same results.

Then tell what you'd do differently? We'll have some new coaching scheme for kids, it's been done times. Do you think kids seeing England lose and hear nothing but moaning about the team is going to encourage those kids to try?

[Larry_LCFC]

The problem is other international teams play as exactly that - a team. We play as a bunch of individuals who only care for themselves and how they themselves look. They would sooner play a safe pass then take a risk to create something. We rely too heavily on players who are there based on name and club only and not on merit which is why we continue to fail time after time. Nobody looks hungry to win which is why it drives insane when you have the likes of Antonio, Rashford and Vardy on the bench and players like DD not even getting a look in. The whole England setup is rotten to the core.

[foxes_rule1978]

1 minute ago, Donut said:

I would say because the skills we believe are needed to thrive in "our" football arent the ones that win games at the highest highest level.

 

What technically brilliant players to we produce? we produce players with physicality, athleticism, power......sure those things are important of course they are

 

Do we produce players who can unlock the door with a quality pass? do we produce intelligent players? players who can dribble past players on the inside and outside, with both feet? very very few.

 

And i think its because we dont put an importance on attributes like this.

 

Young players being loaned out is seen as a "hardening up" process....to put them up against rugged hackers from Southend United and Chesterfield.

 

Probably out attitudes as fans dont help either. Would you get disgruntled if you saw Leicester passing the ball for 15 passes, patiently waiting for an opening to exploit? people dont want to see that even though we need to develop players who are all technically good enough to do this.

 

Playing on full size pitches mean the kids that happen to be bigger at a young age have a huge advantage  over the more creative player who hasn't quite got the strength yet. 

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

8 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

No chance sorry, 1990 was a good team that surpassed expectation without actually beating anyone good in what was a pretty dire tournament. Had players like Waddle Lineker Pearce Butcher who were experienced top level internationals  and great prospects in Platt and Gascoigne. But Sven had the Golden Age, the whole of the defense and midfield (bar the famous lack of a left winger) could all stake a claim to be one of the best in the world at what they did and we were never short of a decent goal scoring striker (namely young Rooney and Michael Owen for the most part) to put the chances away. Unfortunately we just weren't quite good enough in 2002, were very unfortunate in 2004, and then it went down hill dramatically for some reason which is when most of them should of hit their prime, which is what pisses most people off and was the start of the national disdain towards the the national side which has only got worse as the team has failed to bring players through to even get close to matching the players of those go by. The might not have given a shit back then but at least they could deliver a quarter final in the process. Not get outdone by footballing power houses like Iceland and Costa Rica.  

 

As opposed to a side that did worse at dire tournaments?

[Gary Eatfood]

2 minutes ago, Donut said:

I would say because the skills we believe are needed to thrive in "our" football arent the ones that win games at the highest highest level.

 

What technically brilliant players to we produce? we produce players with physicality, athleticism, power......sure those things are important of course they are

 

Do we produce players who can unlock the door with a quality pass? do we produce intelligent players? players who can dribble past players on the inside and outside, with both feet? very very few.

 

And i think its because we dont put an importance on attributes like this.

 

Young players being loaned out is seen as a "hardening up" process....to put them up against rugged hackers from Southend United and Chesterfield.

 

Probably out attitudes as fans dont help either. Would you get disgruntled if you saw Leicester passing the ball for 15 passes, patiently waiting for an opening to exploit? people dont want to see that even though we need to develop players who are all technically good enough to do this.

 

 

As is stands we have some players with the technical ability that you refer to. John Stones is an example. He would fit seamlessly into the Spanish side. Ali is another but he currently lacks the temperament to be a real top player. The other is Wilshere but the guy is so lacking in professionalism it seems that it's a joke. The only other player that comes close is Dier. I like Dier as a footballer but he had some shocking moments tonight, he was probably just a little rusty though

Maybe in time Rashford could become another but unless we have a coach who can develop a team around this backbone it will be the same for England tournament after tournament.

[Fox in the North]

8 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

We've had those serious wake up calls...I never want us to miss out on any WCUP or Euros.

We are English..we just get on with it.

Henderson, Rooney dont move the Ball quick enough..Both can actually pick a pass, but they are too slow

through the whole game in reacting to their own  forwards runs.

Diers problem tonight was Henderson.

Walcott/ Townsend/Sterling....Walcott doesnt get in the squad. The other 2 are now better moving forward using their feet n pace.

Sturridge needs a good season behind him before he shouldcsee the squad again.  

Rashford, Vardy, Kane, Sterling, even Rooney  at 9, should be at the head of the Queue for the 2 striker positions before him.

Forget the experience...put the younger players in and let them develope together.

 

 

I understand that, but if that's the case then what is going to take to break the status quo? 

 

Its a shame that we just get on with it, I believe that the team with adjustments can perform at a higher level. I'd keep Henderson as he can be a solid central mid at times. There are better players in Rooney's favoured positions so unfortunately he would not make my squad; I think I he dropped the "do everything" act and just focused on being penalty box nuisance he could be effective. 

 

Walcott, Townsend and Sterling are difficult as last season all 3 of them were off the pace for different reasons (Walcott injuries, Townsend not starting regularly, sterling just not being 100%), so I can never make my mind up on them; their form seems to fluctuate so much. 

 

Sturridge has great potential, he needs to become more of a team player as he expects everything on a plate. It would do him wonders to have some of Vardy's work ethic. Agreed we need to use youth, but the tactics have to be centred around their skills, not strong arm them into a system which is alien and restricts them.

[Parafox]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Then tell what you'd do differently? We'll have some new coaching scheme for kids, it's been done times. Do you think kids seeing England lose and hear nothing but moaning about the team is going to encourage those kids to try?

But how can you generate positivity when you watch a performance like tonight and Saturday?

We do our best but we'll no longer be good enough.

[VLC86]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Then tell what you'd do differently? We'll have some new coaching scheme for kids, it's been done times. Do you think kids seeing England lose and hear nothing but moaning about the team is going to encourage those kids to try?

You would hope it would, if I was in a position where I could get on that pitch and give absolutely everything to show how much it meant to me then I would leave nothing to chance.

 

I'm in bed, and if this was a case of writing 3 paragraphs and righting 60 years of wrongs then I wouldn't have a 7am alarm to wake up to so I can pay my bills . Astounded people think this is a knee jerk reaction to a decent away point. 

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, Parafox said:

But how can you generate positivity when you watch a performance like tonight and Saturday?

I'm not arguing that. There is a lot people on here who moan about England for the sake of it. There were people calling for change before half time in Southgate's first match ffs. There's no pleasing some people.

 

I'm arguing with people who think that losing will improve things.

[foxes_rule1978]

I look at the England U21 team and they seriously look good, but how many will get a chance in the Premier League and come through together into the England team. 

[Wymsey]

1 minute ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

I look at the England U21 team and they seriously look good, but how many will get a chance in the Premier League and come through together into the England team. 

Should loan these hughly-rated youngsters out to teams in Bundesliga etc, where they'll be given a proper opportunity.

 

Like Burke is doing,  which was a good move for him personally.

[ARTY_FOX]

I genuinely can't see how henderson, sturridge, Lingard or Walcott get selected. It can only be the club they play for. There is better options that would play like they actually want to be there. Only thing is they don't okay for a "top club"

[foxes_rule1978]

1 minute ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Should loan these hughly-rated youngsters out to teams in Bundesliga etc, where they'll be given a proper opportunity.

 

Like Burke is doing,  which was a good move for him personally.

 I'm not sure why they aren't because if you look at Germany Italy Spain etc they have players all over Europe and I think that certainly helps. 

[Donut]

5 minutes ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

I look at the England U21 team and they seriously look good, but how many will get a chance in the Premier League and come through together into the England team. 

They will come through if they are good enough.

 

The under 21s is a bit of a weird age for me. By the age of 20 or so, if a player "has it", then theyre in and around the full national team anyway.

 

Under 21s i think has a use in getting players tournament experience, but even that doesnt seem to be doing much good.

[GaelicFox]

1 hour ago, Costock_Fox said:

Haha nice.

 

In the changing room before a match a few years and some lad next to me just blerts out "I can't stop talking, it's crazy this shit" no idea what he had been on the night before but he was unplayable  .

 

 

if it was good enough for Diego it's good enough for me 

 

 

[ScouseFox]

6 minutes ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

 I'm not sure why they aren't because if you look at Germany Italy Spain etc they have players all over Europe and I think that certainly helps. 

because if chelsea reserves offered 18 year old me 20k a week and a potential chance to play for chelsea i'm signing that contract and not one for 500 quid a week in bottom half of the french ligue 1. 

[Dan]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

All the negativity on here. All the abuse. All the anger. All the frustration. Just goes to show how much everyone really cares deep down and is desperate for England to be successful. Love it. That's why we're the best football nation with the best supporters in the world. 

I often think I don't care, but it just doesn't feel right. I'm a complete obsessive of the sport, how can I possibly not care about my own national team? I care that I find them hard to care about.

 

I maintain there is no side I've come across that are harder to warm to, but I can't get my head around how that can be the case. I'm an obsessive English football fan. How can I accept feeling like that about England FC?

[Dan]

1 hour ago, foxes_rule1978 said:

Why aren't we producing those players? Surely this is the question that needs answering, and we should be putting some form of plan in place to get those players through. 

We also don't accept that we don't produce these players as we overhype absolutely everyone coming through. Laughable when people call some of them World Class talents. Where would these players be in terms of international football if they were Spanish, German or French? Would Alli get in Spain's side? Would Dier get in Germany's? Would Henderson even get in ****ing Slovenia's?

 

Yet we convince ourselves they are top players, and try to play as such. It works against sides of this ilk generally, tonight's an exception as Hart's bailed us out of getting hammered quite frankly, but when it comes to tournaments there is no desire to produce a side that is greater than the sum of its parts because we think they're better than they are. Imagine where Portugal would be if they such arrogance and delusion? Croatia would've wiped the floor with them in the round of 16.

[Donut]

I think one reason i struggle to warm to England, is i know the character of the players more intimately than i do other countries for one.

 

When i grew up, first real tournament i vividly remember was USA 94. I just purely enjoyed the football, I remember all the late goals Italy scored to make the fina until Baggio missed that penalty, I remeber Romario, Bebeto, Dunga bossing it for Brazil. But i didnt actually KNOW the character of the players.

 

And likewise now, in other countries, the same holds true to a large degree.

 

However, i do know that in recent times watching England, John Terry was a racist, i know Ashley Cole wanted sympathy for only being offered a massive Arsenal contract instead of a seismic one, I know Rooney as holding Man Utd to ransom whilst not delivering for England, Ferdinand missing a drugs ban and partying in Soho when he was given compassionate leave by his club, Jack Wilshere being caught more than once smoking FFS when hes supposed to be a top level athlete.

 

Makes me think.......how can i warm to these people when im basically watching a collective group of bellends.

 

And i might be completely wrong, i just get this vibe coming from the camp, especially at tournaments, where it is just a bellends jamboree.

 

I dont expect them to win major tournaments when you look at who they are up against, but i honestly think they dont care that they finish bottom of world cup groups. They dont care they were embarrased by Iceland. Its just the vibe they give off.

 

And as for the football, they do nothing to excite me. I watch England out of duty, but i never see a good game. I see performances from people who make international football look like a chore.

 

Its hard work sometimes.

[trabuch]

1 hour ago, Donut said:

I would say because the skills we believe are needed to thrive in "our" football arent the ones that win games at the highest highest level.

 

What technically brilliant players to we produce? we produce players with physicality, athleticism, power......sure those things are important of course they are

 

Do we produce players who can unlock the door with a quality pass? do we produce intelligent players? players who can dribble past players on the inside and outside, with both feet? very very few.

 

And i think its because we dont put an importance on attributes like this.

 

Young players being loaned out is seen as a "hardening up" process....to put them up against rugged hackers from Southend United and Chesterfield.

 

Probably out attitudes as fans dont help either. Would you get disgruntled if you saw Leicester passing the ball for 15 passes, patiently waiting for an opening to exploit? people dont want to see that even though we need to develop players who are all technically good enough to do this.

 

Spot on. Far too much emphasis on physicality - particularly at a young age. It's no coincidence that skillful players mostly come from overseas. Mahrez would have got nowhere here - far too weak. I pity young English players with craft. Muzzy was binned by Chelsea (and England). 

[Dan]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

I'm not arguing that. There is a lot people on here who moan about England for the sake of it. There were people calling for change before half time in Southgate's first match ffs. There's no pleasing some people.

 

I'm arguing with people who think that losing will improve things.

I think a lot of it does stem from the way Leicester hit the absolute nadir, by hitting League One, and despite a few blips, since then we've never looked back. We went down, brought in a manager with a completely new way of thinking, and have finished higher than the last season in nearly all of the years since that.

 

It's also like when Germany lost 1-5 to us. They saw that as a catalyst for change. Look at them now.

 

But I agree it does England no favours. We lost to Iceland, without a doubt the most embarrassing result in our history, and we've still seen no fundamental changes to the way we as a team operate. It's not like the Iceland debacle wasn't coming either.

[ScouseFox]

12 minutes ago, Donut said:

I think one reason i struggle to warm to England, is i know the character of the players more intimately than i do other countries for one.

 

When i grew up, first real tournament i vividly remember was USA 94. I just purely enjoyed the football, I remember all the late goals Italy scored to make the fina until Baggio missed that penalty, I remeber Romario, Bebeto, Dunga bossing it for Brazil. But i didnt actually KNOW the character of the players.

 

And likewise now, in other countries, the same holds true to a large degree.

 

However, i do know that in recent times watching England, John Terry was a racist, i know Ashley Cole wanted sympathy for only being offered a massive Arsenal contract instead of a seismic one, I know Rooney as holding Man Utd to ransom whilst not delivering for England, Ferdinand missing a drugs ban and partying in Soho when he was given compassionate leave by his club, Jack Wilshere being caught more than once smoking FFS when hes supposed to be a top level athlete.

 

Makes me think.......how can i warm to these people when im basically watching a collective group of bellends.

 

And i might be completely wrong, i just get this vibe coming from the camp, especially at tournaments, where it is just a bellends jamboree.

 

I dont expect them to win major tournaments when you look at who they are up against, but i honestly think they dont care that they finish bottom of world cup groups. They dont care they were embarrased by Iceland. Its just the vibe they give off.

 

And as for the football, they do nothing to excite me. I watch England out of duty, but i never see a good game. I see performances from people who make international football look like a chore.

 

Its hard work sometimes.

whilst this is all well and good, I am going to assume you enjoyed racist Jamie vardy trans/homophobic Robert huth and convicted woman abusing Danny Simpson win us the league last year? I'm sure we've got some other close to the bone characters in our camp, too. still support them and love them all on the pitch though. 

 

still maintain a lot of people just make excuses when it comes to supporting england cos we're a bit rubbish. if we'd won a World Cup and a euros in the mid naughties do you think anyone would've not celebrated because Ashley cole wanted more money per week a few years previous? 

 

football fans are fickle. we can gloss over any misdemeanour no matter how serious if you play a decent game of footy. problem with England is we rarely do.