Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

49 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Of course, how foolish of me. It's never Labour's fault is it?

 

In my post, I criticised Labour for running a deficit during a boom and for not regulating banks more. I could add other criticisms, as I have before: the inter-generational immorality of PFI schemes, restricting public spending too much 1997-2001 and certainly the Iraq invasion & lack of planning for the aftermath, which continues to cast a blight on the world via ISIS (though there are many factors in that - and I know you think Iraq was a good idea).

 

However, Howe's 1981 budget, the Lawson boom and Black Wednesday clearly weren't Labour's fault as they weren't in government.

 

While aspects of Labour economic policy may have contributed to the severity of the 2008 crash in the UK, the crash itself clearly was not Labour's fault either - unless you believe that Gordon Brown was selling sub-prime mortgages in the USA, speculating on dodgy, poorly understood derivatives on Wall Street, running Lehmann Bros and responsible for the entire global economy. 

 

Incidentally, the Tories cannot be blamed for everything that went wrong during their tenure, either. The UK has a host of structural problems: adjusting to post-imperial existence, institutionalised class conflict between unions and business, short-termism in business and politics, failure to invest in infrastructure & training, aging population etc. Governments of every persuasion have failed to resolve many of those problems, not just the Tories (though they've been in power for 25 of the last 38 years).

Edited 26 June 2017 by Alf Bentley

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Something quite Ironic about far left cretins appearing (McDonnell, Corbyn and Momentum) at an elitist music event that charges over £200 a ticket, ran by a rich farmer who for some reason is seen as a man of the people by the left. For the many not the few........or is it all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!!

 

Hope there was a Starbucks and iPhone charging station, so they can keep up their Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat status up to date about how much they hate the avoiding companies and the rich.

 

Also its disgraceful how these ***** seem incapable of putting rubbish in a ****ing bin, again for people who claim to support greenpeace there is some irony in a scene such as this:

 

 

OMG a whole two hundred pounds!!!! Hypocrites!!!

 

That £200, which people can save up for over a period of months, covers three days' worth of music and hundreds of different acts, a place to stay, and paying the cleaners (newsflash pal - it's about the biggest music festival in the world, not everyone there will be a tree-hugging peacenik. Shit will get left around, but the organisers know how to deal with it).

 

Seriously, the way some people who rave on about this kind of stuff whinge - it's like they don't think anyone left-leaning should be allowed to have a nice time at almost anything.

 

Also, how dare people keep up to date with current technology by paying for it with money which, and I can't stress this enough, can be saved up for over an extended period of time.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Something quite Ironic about far left cretins appearing (McDonnell, Corbyn and Momentum) at an elitist music event that charges over £200 a ticket, ran by a rich farmer who for some reason is seen as a man of the people by the left. For the many not the few........or is it all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!!

 

Hope there was a Starbucks and iPhone charging station, so they can keep up their Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat status up to date about how much they hate the avoiding companies and the rich.

 

Also its disgraceful how these ***** seem incapable of putting rubbish in a ****ing bin, again for people who claim to support greenpeace there is some irony in a scene such as this:

 

 

Why so bitter? A couple of hundred thousand people gather to have fun, some of them leave litter and others aren't Right-wingers. What a shocker! 

 

If £200 for a ticket is "elitist", LCFC season ticket holders truly must be the aristocratic 1% as most season tickets cost more than twice as much.

Neither are cheap - and both are out of the reach of those on very low incomes. But, like it or not, Glastonbury is now a large, mainstream event with a large, mainstream audience - a bit like PL football.

 

I doubt many people, Left or Right, have a strong opinion about Eavis.

 

As for the litter, while it would be nice if everyone cleared up after themselves, a bit of litter is hardly unusual at a major event.

 

Compare and contrast with the litter on Victoria Park after our title celebration (which only lasted a few hours and where nobody was camping out).

How disgraceful that we ***** seem incapable of putting rubbish in a ****ing bin, eh?!

 

 

 

[lgfualol]

People go on their main holiday to Glastonbury, it's a week long event for 200 quid. Hardly elitist. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

28 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

OMG a whole two hundred pounds!!!! Hypocrites!!!

 

That £200, which people can save up for over a period of months, covers three days' worth of music and hundreds of different acts, a place to stay, and paying the cleaners (newsflash pal - it's about the biggest music festival in the world, not everyone there will be a tree-hugging peacenik. Shit will get left around, but the organisers know how to deal with it).

 

Seriously, the way some people who rave on about this kind of stuff whinge - it's like they don't think anyone left-leaning should be allowed to have a nice time at almost anything.

 

Also, how dare people keep up to date with current technology by paying for it with money which, and I can't stress this enough, can be saved up for over an extended period of time.

£200 to an already rich wealthy man, I am sure it could be a lot more reasonable price than that 'for the people'. Its only accessible to an elite group of people. £200 is a lot of money to the 'many'

 

People shouldn't be so disgusting, expecting someone else to do it is exactly what is wrong with the world, if they eat chips or drink a bottle put it in the ****ing bin its not hard! I suppose its ok to throw litter out of a car window because the council will clean it up?!

 

This event is an absolute symbolisation of the hypocrisy of the left, there are thousands of tents and items of clothing left every year, some which could provide shelter for refugees.

 

The technology point is more along the lines the left phone of choice an iPhone is provided by one of the biggest tax avoiding firms globally, it the major social network avoid paying tax as does Starbucks......whooosh

 

I have no problem with it........its just the irony of it all.

 

Edited 26 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[lgfualol]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

£200 to an already rich wealthy man, I am sure it could be a lot more reasonable price than that 'for the people'. Its only accessible to an elite group of people. £200 is a lot of money to the 'many'

 

Couldn't the exact same thing be said about football? I wouldn't say football is elitist.

[Alf Bentley]

Tory/DUP confidence and supply agreement set to be announced within hours, according to BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40402352

 

If so, it will be interesting to see how much of the agreement is revealed - and what is in it, if we do find out.

Arlene Foster is claiming that the deal will be transparent and will help, not hinder Stormont to get up and running again......

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Why so bitter? A couple of hundred thousand people gather to have fun, some of them leave litter and others aren't Right-wingers. What a shocker! 

 

If £200 for a ticket is "elitist", LCFC season ticket holders truly must be the aristocratic 1% as most season tickets cost more than twice as much.

Neither are cheap - and both are out of the reach of those on very low incomes. But, like it or not, Glastonbury is now a large, mainstream event with a large, mainstream audience - a bit like PL football.

 

I doubt many people, Left or Right, have a strong opinion about Eavis.

 

As for the litter, while it would be nice if everyone cleared up after themselves, a bit of litter is hardly unusual at a major event.

 

Compare and contrast with the litter on Victoria Park after our title celebration (which only lasted a few hours and where nobody was camping out).

How disgraceful that we ***** seem incapable of putting rubbish in a ****ing bin, eh?!

 

 

 

Quite a lot of them leave a lot it seems, perhaps a symbolisation of the something for nothing culture we have where 'somebody else will pick it up for me' the same as 'somebody else will pay for it for me'.

 

A season ticket or match ticket whilst I agree is a rip off doesn't normally have some left wingers preaching at it? Its also 20 games over 9 months and can be paid by direct debit so not quite the same.

 

Yes Victoria park was a disgrace too........I suppose some think someone will clear the mess for them. I took my litter home in a bag and put it in a bin.......not hard

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Couldn't the exact same thing be said about football? I wouldn't say football is elitist.

I would say its getting that way.......its certainly more a game of the middle classes now than the working class.

[lgfualol]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

I would say its getting that way.......its certainly more a game of the middle classes now than the working class.

I agree about your point with rubbish though. It was the downside of my festival-going days, watching people actually litter for fun when there were bins nearby. Reading festival was the worst for this. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Litter is a huge problem in this country. I am not sure what the problem is, the amount of times I am driving down a road and I see people throwing out McDonalds wrappers or Coffee cups from their relatively posh looking cars. I don't get it.......drive the car home, put rubbish in bin! how hard is that? Where does the mentality come from?

Edited 26 June 2017 by Foxin_mad

[The Guvnor]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Tory/DUP confidence and supply agreement set to be announced within hours, according to BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40402352

 

If so, it will be interesting to see how much of the agreement is revealed - and what is in it, if we do find out.

Arlene Foster is claiming that the deal will be transparent and will help, not hinder Stormont to get up and running again......

Just noticed this on the news, I believe any additional monies given to NI would have to be reciprocated due to the Barnett formula so best we keep things quiet.

[Guest MattP]

12 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Typical BBC bias at it again! Clearly...

 

 

You see I would have no problem at all with them showing that picture as it's one of total fact. That accompanied by "Jeremy Corbyn addresses the crowd at Glastonbury" would be absolutely fine. Not an issue.

 

I think you have misunderstood why people got the arse with it, it's the BBC's job to report fact, it's not their job to make him sound great by "promoting" him by putting a picture of him alongside a comment of something like, "when you've nailed the chorus" - that's what was wrong.

 

3 hours ago, l444ry said:

I notice that The Times is continuing its policy of fake news by claiming criminals can now be thrown out as a consequence of Brexit. Any clued in person knows they always could be thrown out. Same old lies as the "control our borders" tosh. The Government has always had the power to asked EU immigrants to leave if they hadn't got a job within three months. They can't be very confident of the way the Brexit talks are going if they need to resort to this level of deceit. 

Except it's not fake news it is?

 

EU law does provide an extra blanket of protection against deportation as if a criminal has lived in Britain for five years it requires "serious grounds" on public security to remove them, Non-EU citizens are considered for deportation after just one year and can be whatever the crime.

 

Here are a couple examples for you, I'm sure we have many more.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12306605 - Theresa Rafacz - Mr Justice Blake (most senior immigration judge) says no deportation as the crime did not meet the threshold of seriousness under EU law.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/31/humanrights.immigrationpolicy

 

Learco Chindamo, the killer of Phillip Lawrence,

 

Quote

His lawyers successfully argued that deportation to Italy would have been illegal as Chindamo was from an EU country and had already lived in the UK for 10 years by 1995. Chindamo's lawyer, Nigel Leskin, has said his client was now a reformed character who was unlikely to offend again.

Quote

 

Mr Justice Collins said in today's ruling: "This case has generated a great deal of publicity and comment in the media and by politicians. In the circumstances, I have thought it right to give more detailed reasons for my decision than are normally provided in these reconsideration applications."

He said the law he had to apply was contained in the 2006 immigration (European economic area) regulations. These state that a person who has acquired the right to reside in the UK can only be removed if their personal conduct represents "a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society".

A person's previous criminal convictions "do not in themselves justify the decision" to deport. Article 8 of the European convention on human rights, which protects the right to private and family life, was also considered by the tribunal in August.

The judge said: "It is, in my view, impossible to show that the tribunal erred in law in deciding that removal would be disproportionate, a finding which not only affects the decision under article 8 but also under the regulations. There was no misdirection by the tribunal."

He said of Chindamo's case: "There can be no doubt that the offence was viewed with repugnance at the time and the media has maintained its interest in and displeasure with the appellant ever since.

"Dreadful though the offence was, the circumstances do not show that it was a murder which shows the individual to be a person whose presence here must, whatever the circumstances, constitute a present threat affecting one of the most fundamental interests of society."

The judge emphasised that the result of the appeal did not depend on the Human Rights Act but on the 2006 regulations applying to a EU directive.

 

 

Edited 26 June 2017 by MattP

[lgfualol]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

Litter is a huge problem in this country. I am not sure what the problem is, the amount of times I am driving down a road and I see people throwing out McDonalds wrappers or Coffee cups from their relatively posh looking cars. I don't get it.......drive the car home, put rubbish in bin! how hard is that? Where does the mentality come from?

As a stupid kid I used to litter because I was lazy and didn't really think about it. I guess a lot of people are the same. I eventually realised I was being a disrespectful cvnt and stopped. 

 

In Germany I barely see any litter, other than stuff that might have blown out of bins or in very poor areas. In schools, kids are made to tidy up instead of cleaners which gives them incentive not to litter in the first place as they'll end up picking it back up. They also have incentives to recycle, making you pay extra on bottles/cans and refunding you that extra if you recycle. I don't get why the UK hasn't got this as I see no end of beer cans in bushes in the UK. At least you added they introduced a charge for plastic bags. 

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Tory/DUP confidence and supply agreement set to be announced within hours, according to BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40402352

 

If so, it will be interesting to see how much of the agreement is revealed - and what is in it, if we do find out.

Arlene Foster is claiming that the deal will be transparent and will help, not hinder Stormont to get up and running again......

Very little I would imagine, expect the rags to be throwing in more FOI requests in the next few years than they have in the last decade. What a huge risk for the Tories, a real chance this could re-toxify the brand (although May has done a sound job of that already) and the more I think about it the more I think they shouldn't have even mentioned this and just dared the DUP to vote down a Conservative QS.

 

I'm a huge fan of Nigel Dodds and Arlene Foster seems fine but I hope the other DUP MP's who are in this parliament don't have any baggage that could end up as a huge embarrassment.

 

As an aside, given the Labour disgust with this deal, I presume they are going to be severing all links with the SDLP? (who hold pretty much the same views as the DUP on things like abortion)

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Of course, how foolish of me. It's never Labour's fault is it?

 

Quite, glad you see straight on things now. Would you like a red flag to wave?

Edited 26 June 2017 by DJ Barry Hammond

[davieG]

Conservatives agree pact with DUP to support May government

3 minutes ago

 

From the sectionUK Politics

 

 

The Conservatives have reached an agreement with the Democratic Unionists which will see them support Theresa May's minority government.

The deal, which comes two weeks after the election resulted in a hung Parliament, will see the 10 DUP MPs back the Tories in key Commons votes.

There will be £1bn extra for Northern Ireland over the next two years.

DUP leader Arlene Foster said the "wide-ranging" agreement was "good for Northern Ireland and for the UK".

A three page document outlining the terms of the agreement has been published in full. The DUP said it would apply for the lifetime of the Parliament, scheduled to last five years, but would also be reviewed at the end of the current session in two years time.

There will be £1.5bn in funding - consisting of £1bn of new money and £500m of previously announced funds - to be spent over the next two years on infrastructure, health and education in Northern Ireland, money Mrs Foster said was needed to address the challenges from Northern Ireland's "unique history".

As part of the deal, the treatment of military veterans in Northern Ireland will be improved while the triple lock guarantee of 2.5% spending on pensions, and existing universal winter fuel payments, will be maintained throughout the UK.

 

Mrs May shook hands with DUP leader Arlene Foster as she and other senior party figures arrived at Downing Street on Monday to finalise the pact.

The two leaders then watched as Conservative chief whip Gavin Williamson and his DUP counterpart Jeffrey Donaldson signed the documents in No 10.

The Press Association quoted Mrs Foster as saying she was "delighted" with the arrangement while Mrs May believed the pact was a "very good one".

Image captionThe two sides met in the Cabinet room

"We share many values in terms of wanting to see prosperity across the UK, the value of the union, the important bond between the different parts of the UK," Mrs May said.

"We very much want to see that protected and enhanced and we also share the desire to ensure a strong government, able to put through its programme and provide for issues like the Brexit negotiations, but also national security issues."

The BBC's political editor Laura Kuenssberg said it was "deal done" and she was expecting Mrs Foster to give more details in a brief statement outside Downing Street shortly.

Under the so-called "confidence and supply" arrangement, the DUP will line up behind the government in key votes, such as on the Queen's Speech and Budgets, which would threaten the government's survival if they were lost.

On other legislation, however, the DUP's support is not necessarily guaranteed - although the Northern Ireland party is expected to back the majority of the government's programme for the next two years after many of its more controversial policies were dropped.

Theresa May fell nine seats short of an overall majority after the snap election, meaning she is reliant on other parties to pass legislation, including relating to the terms of the UK's withdrawal from the EU.

The support of the DUP will give her an effective working majority of 13, given that Sinn Fein do not take up their seven seats and Speaker John Bercow and his three deputies - two of whom are Labour MPs - do not take part in votes.

Several senior Tories had advised her to govern without any formal agreement with the DUP, arguing the unionist party would not be prepared to bring Mrs May down and run the risk of triggering a fresh election given their longstanding hostility to Jeremy Corbyn and other senior Labour figures.

Former PM Sir John Major warned that a formal association with the DUP could undermine attempts to restore power-sharing government in Northern Ireland while some MPs said the DUP's socially conservative stance on issues such as gay marriage and abortion could damage the party in the longer term.

Labour have demanded details of how much the deal will cost UK taxpayers and what financial promises have been made.

[Ashley]

Do the DUP even have any terriost links or is it a leftie attempt to stir shit after all the things about JC being a IRA sympathisers?

[Brizzle Fox]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

£200 to an already rich wealthy man, I am sure it could be a lot more reasonable price than that 'for the people'. Its only accessible to an elite group of people. £200 is a lot of money to the 'many'

 

People shouldn't be so disgusting, expecting someone else to do it is exactly what is wrong with the world, if they eat chips or drink a bottle put it in the ****ing bin its not hard! I suppose its ok to throw litter out of a car window because the council will clean it up?!

 

This event is an absolute symbolisation of the hypocrisy of the left, there are thousands of tents and items of clothing left every year, some which could provide shelter for refugees.

 

The technology point is more along the lines the left phone of choice an iPhone is provided by one of the biggest tax avoiding firms globally, it the major social network avoid paying tax as does Starbucks......whooosh

 

I have no problem with it........its just the irony of it all.

 

You do know that any tents left that are still serviceable do get recycled to local or African aid charities, so not all bad!

[Alf Bentley]

55 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Litter is a huge problem in this country. I am not sure what the problem is, the amount of times I am driving down a road and I see people throwing out McDonalds wrappers or Coffee cups from their relatively posh looking cars. I don't get it.......drive the car home, put rubbish in bin! how hard is that? Where does the mentality come from?

 

Upbringing and social acceptability, I presume.

 

But if many parents not only accept it but drop litter themselves, I'm not sure how you stop that mentality spreading - apart from using CCTV to levy fines or something, which would require a lot of resources.

I don't suppose public awareness campaigns would achieve much if habits are ingrained.

[Buce]

2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Something quite Ironic about far left cretins appearing (McDonnell, Corbyn and Momentum) at an elitist music event that charges over £200 a ticket, ran by a rich farmer who for some reason is seen as a man of the people by the left. For the many not the few........or is it all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!!

 

Hope there was a Starbucks and iPhone charging station, so they can keep up their Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat status up to date about how much they hate the avoiding companies and the rich.

 

Also its disgraceful how these ***** seem incapable of putting rubbish in a ****ing bin, again for people who claim to support greenpeace there is some irony in a scene such as this:

 

 

This is satire, right?

 

If not, you really need to get out more and see some real life.

[RoboFox]

19 minutes ago, Ashley said:

Do the DUP even have any terriost links or is it a leftie attempt to stir shit after all the things about JC being a IRA sympathisers?

"Theresa May's new partners in government have strong historical links with Loyalist paramilitary groups. Specifically, the terrorist group Ulster Resistance was founded by a collection of people who went on to be prominent DUP politicians. Peter Robinson, for example, who was DUP leader and Northern Ireland’s first minister until last year, was an active member of Ulster Resistance."

Robinson on the left here (ironically) in paramilitary uniform.

 

[l444ry]

It's been reported that Michael Eavis takes £60,000 for running Glastonbury and donates all profits to charity. Maybe that's why people like the fella. 

Edited 26 June 2017 by l444ry

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, l444ry said:

It's been reported that Michael Eavis takes £60,000 for running Glastonbury and donates all profits to charity. Maybe that's why people like the fella. 

I thought he went down well with the crowd as he was pro-hunting?

 

Anyway, I can't help but like the guy, his real first name is the same as one of my favourite ever Kings.

[Sharpe's Fox]

DUP found the magic money tree and our Arlene is currently pulping it up for heating pellets for her latest cash for ash scheme heh