rachhere Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Just now, Buce said: That is so naive, bro. Whistling in the dark doesn’t make the bogeyman go away. Indeed. I work in higher ed and the impact is anticipated to be massive. I have friends who are high up in the car manufacturing industry and they are already making contingency plans expecting their jobs not to be around much longer. Other countries must be looking at us in the same level of disbelief that we look at Trump America with. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealingfox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 2 minutes ago, MattP said: They sit there while May and Robbins negotiate with Barnier so they can look like they have Brexiteer as part of the negotiation. Same reason it appears Liam Fox has a job. They were the people present at the meetings throughout. They might have had a mandate laid down by the PM and strict orders but if there was no scope for doing any of their own work why accept the job in the first place? Raab doesn't seem quite such an idiot as Davis was, why start down an already-defined road? Picking up a pay cheque maybe? In it for the complimentary drinks on all the London-Brussels commutes? Or posturing so that he can now position himself for a leadership challenge? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 minute ago, ealingfox said: They were the people present at the meetings throughout. They might have had a mandate laid down by the PM and strict orders but if there was no scope for doing any of their own work why accept the job in the first place? Raab doesn't seem quite such an idiot as Davis was, why start down an already-defined road? Picking up a pay cheque maybe? In it for the complimentary drinks on all the London-Brussels commutes? Or posturing so that he can now position himself for a leadership challenge? In hindsight I'm sure Davis was telling us he had no real power in this, turning up and being pictured with no files, the comment about not needing to be bright, the other comment about he only works a few hours a month - it's almost like he was trying to tell us he has nothing to do with this. I have no idea why Raab accepted the job, Davis I can understand as it was at the start of the process but Raab must have had conversations about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) "No democratic nation has ever signed up to be bound by such an extensive regime, imposed externally without any democratic control over the laws to be applied, nor the ability to decide to exit the arrangement" Spot on. Edited 15 November 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 hour ago, MattP said: It's the only reasoning that now makes sense, how at the end of all this has she managed to come back with a deal with annoys Tory Brexiteers, Tory Remainers, Labour Brexiteers, Labour Remainers, the DUP, the Scottish Tories and her own cabinet? She would have been far better off picking a side to stare down and doing it rather than trying to threaten everyone, it makes no sense at all. Canada or Norway both had a better chance of getting through parliament than this. Where the hell my vote goes now in future I have no idea. Could a Norway-type deal have got through parliament? Only with the support of a lot of Labour MPs, presumably. I suppose, in theory, that could still happen if Corbyn somehow ends up as PM - a Norway-type Brexit implemented by a Labour Govt, maybe with the support of Soft Brexit Tories. Not one of the likelier scenarios at this stage, though. A Canada-type deal would have been hard to get through parliament once May lost her majority. Before that, it might have been feasible if she'd been prepared to (moderately) shaft the DUP by accepting more checks on trade across the Irish Sea. Even then, an aspect I hadn't appreciated before was Scotland vis-à-vis N. Ireland - a lot of Scottish discontent at the Northern Irish being offered terms closer to the Single Market, giving them a competitive disadvantage over Scottish firms/workers across the water. Interesting fact (1): Every single one of the 5 constituencies along the Irish border is held by Sinn Fein Interesting fact (2): 11 out of 18 Northern Irish constituencies voted Remain, including 4 Unionist constituencies 11 minutes ago, MattP said: Same reason it appears Liam Fox has a job. Fox was supposed to be lining up dozens of brilliant global trade deals, ready to go after March 2019, wasn't he? A plan currently stymied at WTO, not by the EU but by Russia, USA, Australia and others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Could a Norway-type deal have got through parliament? Only with the support of a lot of Labour MPs, presumably. I suppose, in theory, that could still happen if Corbyn somehow ends up as PM - a Norway-type Brexit implemented by a Labour Govt, maybe with the support of Soft Brexit Tories. Not one of the likelier scenarios at this stage, though. A Canada-type deal would have been hard to get through parliament once May lost her majority. Before that, it might have been feasible if she'd been prepared to (moderately) shaft the DUP by accepting more checks on trade across the Irish Sea. Even then, an aspect I hadn't appreciated before was Scotland vis-à-vis N. Ireland - a lot of Scottish discontent at the Northern Irish being offered terms closer to the Single Market, giving them a competitive disadvantage over Scottish firms/workers across the water. Canada would have seen her staring down Tory Remainers with very little chance of support from the other side of the house. Norway would have seen staring down the ERG, many other Tories and the DUP but with a chance of considerable support from the other side of the house. It would have been hard to have got either deal through without a lot of hard work but either would certainly be easier than what she has proposed now. It still wouldn't surprise me if the Norway deal with Labour support was the last chance saloon vote instead of reverting to a No Deal or another General Election, it would suit many on both sides of the house and they could probably pass it to avoid two opinions that unite many MP's in virtually every party in the house (probably all apart from the Greens) - that a Corbyn led government or a No Deal Brexit are both going to be economic disasters for the country - both scenarios are now very possible and one scenario is a combination of both Edited 15 November 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Well I for one am shocked that neither of the lads jacking it in have been able to state explicitly in their resignation letters what would have constituted a good deal and how they'd have managed to get that. The irony of the Northern Ireland bloke resigning over the terms of the deal and then stating in the second line of his resignation: "The EU Referendum offered a simple choice - to either stay in or leave the EU." Just too much. If leaving is the important thing, don't throw your toys out of the pram over how you leave. Offer people a simple choice over something that's complicated and this is what happens... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Esther McVey resigns. Gove has also cancelled a trip up North. Might not be a Leave voter left in the cabinet by the end of the day, the Labour frontbench is now the Eurosceptic part of the house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Right on cue... "It will be no good to them trying to pretend that this deal honours the result of the referendum when it is obvious to everyone it doesn't." Funny that. I just remember being asked: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Seems to me this deal honours the result of that perfectly well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealingfox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 McVey going is a good thing for the people of this country, so at least there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 I told you they would resign. Could be another 7 cabinet members to come, plus the ERG will have the support they need to out May likely by the end of the day. MAY OUT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: Esther McVey resigns. Gove has also cancelled a trip up North. Might not be a Leave voter left in the cabinet by the end of the day, the Labour frontbench is now the Eurosceptic part of the house I'd be surprised if Gove went. Reports suggest he was the only Brexiteer minister to support May's deal in cabinet yesterday. He seems to have nailed his colours to the mast of getting a Brexit deal done, then seeking to change it in future. Interesting that Raab's letter was quite positive about May on a personal level, not implying that she should go......realises that calling a confidence vote in her leadership could be a strategic error, as she might win it, and then be secure as PM for 12 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: I told you they would resign. Could be another 7 cabinet members to come, plus the ERG will have the support they need to out May likely by the end of the day. MAY OUT. Will they? They'd need the support of 159 MPs. There are about 80 in the ERG, aren't there? They'd need the support of an awful lot of Tory pragmatists/Remainers.....might happen, if MPs generally realise that there's no chance of her deal passing parliament. But, apart from anything, Tory moderates would realise that they risked a much more Hard Brexit leader if the vote goes to the membership. Could be someone vaguely acceptable to both sides, I suppose..... Javid? Gove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: I'd be surprised if Gove went. Reports suggest he was the only Brexiteer minister to support May's deal in cabinet yesterday. He seems to have nailed his colours to the mast of getting a Brexit deal done, then seeking to change it in future. Interesting that Raab's letter was quite positive about May on a personal level, not implying that she should go......realises that calling a confidence vote in her leadership could be a strategic error, as she might win it, and then be secure as PM for 12 months? So would I but you never know how accurate these reports are going to be. If Gove is going to be the only Leaver still in the cabinet he's going to look like an absolute charlatan, someone putting his own career over his beliefs. I'm not sure it's an option if he wants to contend for the leadership. Total contrast in the letters of Raab and McVey - the latter seemed to be a more personal attack so maybe she did make her cry last night! JRM has been on Radio 4 and he still seems to be saying there is time to change the policy rather than the Prime Minister, if that is possible then it's going to have to happen pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 hour ago, lifted*fox said: Hahahahahahahaha Lot of amusement following the last 24 hrs. Will there be so much frivolity if the consequences are 'No Deal' I wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Suella Braverman resigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 hour ago, Buce said: That is so naive, bro. Whistling in the dark doesn’t make the bogeyman go away. Panicking and creating a soap opera doesn’t help either. It’ll all sort itself out one way or another as it always does. Never seen such mass hysteria in all my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Just now, Izzy Muzzett said: Panicking and creating a soap opera doesn’t help either. It’ll all sort itself out one way or another as it always does. Never seen such mass hysteria in all my life. Maybe the mass hysteria is the thought of Jezzer steering the ship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachhere Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Panicking and creating a soap opera doesn’t help either. It’ll all sort itself out one way or another as it always does. Never seen such mass hysteria in all my life. Millennium bug? I am sure it will sort itself out (very much in the long-term), but sadly the ones who will really feel the effects of it will, as ever, be those in the most vulnerable positions already. Edited 15 November 2018 by rachhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboFox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 This must be the strong and stable government that David Cameron promised all those years ago. Look what you've done, David, you f**king moon-faced, smug c*nt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 29 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Right on cue... "It will be no good to them trying to pretend that this deal honours the result of the referendum when it is obvious to everyone it doesn't." Funny that. I just remember being asked: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" Seems to me this deal honours the result of that perfectly well? No, don't you remember that the leave option said we'd leave however that particular voter thought was best? And a second referendum asking then whether to leave as members of the EEA instead, to negotiate a third party trade deal or to leave with no deal was obviously undemocratic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Voll Blau Posted 15 November 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said: Panicking and creating a soap opera doesn’t help either. It’ll all sort itself out one way or another as it always does. Never seen such mass hysteria in all my life. I'm sorry, but no. Being terribly British and stoic about all of this isn't going to work for me here I'm afraid. Speaking personally, my employment was put under threat as a result of the referendum which caused a great deal of unnecessary stress and anxiety about my future. Luckily things have improved now, but if they balls this up then this isn't going to "sort itself out" for me or millions of others for various reasons. No-one should have to be a martyr for this utterly unavoidable bollocks. There are going to be casualties and it's not going to be pretty in this country for a long time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Just now, Voll Blau said: I'm sorry, but no. Being terribly British and stoic about all of this isn't going to work for me here I'm afraid. Speaking personally, my employment was put under threat as a result of the referendum which caused a great deal of unnecessary stress and anxiety about my future. Luckily things have improved now, but if they balls this up then this isn't going to "sort itself out" for me or millions of others for various reasons. No-one should have to be a martyr for this utterly unavoidable bollocks. There are going to be casualties and it's not going to be pretty in this country for a long time. If you say so. Better go and stock pile my baked beans and paracetamol then start building my nuclear bunker then Call me naive but I choose to be glass half full and believe in a brighter future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Doctor Posted 15 November 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 15 November 2018 2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said: If you say so. Better go and stock pile my baked beans and paracetamol then start building my nuclear bunker then Call me naive but I choose to be glass half full and believe in a brighter future. At this point Izzy, that is naïve. The negotiations are a mess, experts from every area are pointing out the issues this is going to cause with pharmaceuticals, retail products, engineering, food... Thinking this is going to work out well is not a rational position to take. At this point if the government had any sense of duty to the country they'd tell us we were stupid to embark on this and cancel this foolish endeavour, like spotting a child walking towards a plug socket with a fork and stopping them before they hurt themselves. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts