FoxNotFox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, rachhere said: It's all down to N. Ireland though isn't it, at the end of the day. Not "all" but one helluva lot of it is, and that, in all honesty, has somewhat surprised me. I mean, I knew it was an issue, and a big one at that, but I now reckon I underestimated the scale of it. The NI border question is just not resolvable I feel, it looks like there is no compromise, and so we're at an impasse. It seems that single issue could more-or-less scupper Brexit... and that's before you even start considering the other objections to May's deal (as it seemingly is only hers now) It really does highlight the (self inflicted) damage she did to her position by calling that snap election last year. Without that, and her subsequent necessary arrangement with the DUP, she would have stood an outside chance (I'm being generous!) of railroading this deal through. Right now, it looks dead within less that 24 hours of 'approval'. Edited 15 November 2018 by FoxNotFox far too many frekkin' spelling mistakes/typos! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopfkino Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 4 minutes ago, MattP said: To be fair to the EU they were quite clear when it got to the crunch that it was either Norway and Canada and we've managed to come up with something that appears to be inbetween the two that seems to be the worst of both Worlds along with the impossible clause that we can't unilaterally withdraw, I mean we can unilaterally withdraw from NATO (bad idea before anyone jumps on me) if we want but we can't from this agreement, that's just outrageous. But of course we can't unilaterally withdraw, it wouldn't be much of a backstop if when we get fed up with it we can just withdraw and recreate the Irish border problem. Unless we're happy to withdraw to the state of NI being essentially separate to GB as was to be the case last December, but somehow I don't think anyone would find that acceptable. This to me is where there's a lack of realism. 8 minutes ago, MattP said: For what's it's worth I can still getting a Norway style deal through parliament and then revisiting after a General Election could be possible, the problem is that this issue isn't ever going to be resolved fully for some time. Giving the voting pattern in some nations the European Union might even collapse before we've finished our exit in full. The last line is why this is all so tragic, I just wish the politicians had wanted so much scrutiny when we were giving the sovereignty away in the first place, had we done so we might not be in this mess. Well yeah, this informed consent argument is most rancid. If only those folk so keen now had been so keen to seek informed consent with Maastricht (Hi John) and Lisbon (Hi Gordon). In fact our first chance at informed consent on both of those resulted in a rejection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachhere Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 2 minutes ago, FoxNotFox said: Not "all" but one helluva lot of it is, and that has somewhat surprised. I mean, I knew it was an issue, and a big one at that, but I now reckon I underestimated the scale of it. The NI border question is just not resolvable I feel, it looks like there is no compromise, and so we're at an impasse over it. It seems that single issue could more-or-less scuppers Brexit... and that's before you even start considering the other objections to May's deal (as it seemingly is only hers) I really does highlight the (self inflicted) damage she did to her position by calling that snap election last year. Without that, and her subsequent necessary arrangement with the DUP, she would have stood an outside change (I'm being generous!) of railroading this deal through. Right now, it looks dead within less that 24 hours of 'approval'. This is what I mean really. There seems no resolution which will allow hard brexit and at the same time prevent the need for a border of some sorts in Ireland/N. Ireland. I understand to a certain extent why she went with the snap election as (at least how I understand it anyway) it would have given a mandate to their manifesto, which would have meant that as long as they adhered to it's contents they wouldn't have had to have passed it through parliament. What she hasn't done is acknowledge that losing seats in that election demonstrated that people were unhappy with the direction Brexit was taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Hundreds Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 I think we could see some huge political casualties if there's another general election, plenty of punitive voting getting dished out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKCJ Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 What a complete shambles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUltimateWinner Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Gove turns down position of brexit sec apparently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 You know a job offer is bad when Gove won't take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachhere Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: You know a job offer is bad when Gove won't take it. He spoke at an event at work a while back. Was interesting actually - he completely acknowledged he had missed the bigger picture when Education Minister, and said that he was completely fixated on the type of education that he had received but couldn't see how that couldn't be translated to the average school across the country. I did respect the fact he acknowledged his mistakes and it made me see him in a new light, but at the same time you have to question why he didn't listen to experts around him when in the job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 JRM doesn't want it either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, rachhere said: He spoke at an event at work a while back. Was interesting actually - he completely acknowledged he had missed the bigger picture when Education Minister, and said that he was completely fixated on the type of education that he had received but couldn't see how that couldn't be translated to the average school across the country. I did respect the fact he acknowledged his mistakes and it made me see him in a new light, but at the same time you have to question why he didn't listen to experts around him when in the job. He's a natural reformer so his instinct will always be change. He does seem to be changing a lot of his views as a politician though, five years ago I'd have put him on the right on the Conservative party but he appears to have moderated somewhat. His quote about experts in the EU referendum did actually make a lot of sense about why many weren't interested in listening to much of what was said ("I think the people in this country have had enough of experts with organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong") and had they addressed it rather than just misquoting him by finishing his sentence early might have been able to debate it properly. Edited 15 November 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 I voted to Remain but agreed to let Brexiteers have their negotiations and to see what would come. My Remain vote was on the belief that whilst the EU can be an awful organisation at times (Greece, silence over Catalonia etc.) it's better to reform within, and even if that isn't the case, we simply do not have the competency to pull off Brexit with any kind of beneficial gain. As we're coming to the pale it seems the latter point was correct; to be honest, I can't see any other outcome than Brexit being rescinded. There is almost no chance of a deal being reached at this stage, it won't even get past Parliament, and there are far too many unknowns for a No Deal Brexit, every time its brought up its hesitant, those who are nowhere near power or responsibility rabbit on about it and when they reach a position of influence the focus is on getting a deal. It's the big red button and no one in politics has the gall to press it. Politicians, I'd imagine, would much rather be seen as the slimy cowards who betrayed Brexit by a third or less of the electorate than a few years down the line potentially be seen universally as the Government (and Party more importantly) that totally ruined the UK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 The next Brexit secretary. Apparently Derren Brown is being approached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post purpleronnie Posted 15 November 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 15 November 2018 1 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachhere Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Just now, purpleronnie said: Gerard Batten's quote there is my 'favourite'. What world are they living in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Even the ERG can't agree on the way forward Michael Crick ✔@MichaelLCrick Sir Edward Leigh on ERG: “there’s a genuine difference of opinion.” Leigh says he hasn’t submitted a letter or email How many splits are there in the political set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxNotFox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Even the splits are splitting.... splitters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 What are the odds being offered on next Tory leader? As speculation continues over Conservative MPs submitting letters of no confidence in the PM to the 1922 Committee, who do the bookmakers think might succeed Theresa May if a vacancy arises? Dominic Raab - 5/1 Sajid Javid - 11/2 Boris Johnson - 6/1 Michael Gove - 17/2 Jeremy Hunt - 17/2 Jacob Rees-Mogg - 17/2 David Davis - 17/2 *Odds worked out taking the average from six bookmakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 9 minutes ago, purpleronnie said: Absolutely hilarious to think how many people believed these charlatans. Fooled, hook, line & sinker. How embarrassing... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 8 minutes ago, rachhere said: Gerard Batten's quote there is my 'favourite'. What world are they living in. In fairness wasn't he correct. We don't really want to leave Mr Barnier but it needs to look like we have thrashed out every possible concession. Not a problem we guarantee you will be tied into the Eu for perpetuity. Another digestive with your tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpleronnie Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 6 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: Absolutely hilarious to think how many people believed these charlatans. Fooled, hook, line & sinker. How embarrassing... No doubt they'll say they never believed them but voted Brexit in spite of it. Standard response. Just like no brexitier believed all the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow promises. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuna Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Another gone - Rehman Chishti resigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 11 minutes ago, purpleronnie said: No doubt they'll say they never believed them but voted Brexit in spite of it. Standard response. Just like no brexitier believed all the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow promises. The denial is hilarious. I'm gonna find a little time to go back through this thread and dig out some of the obsurd optimism (in the face of actual facts) for the lolz. Certain people on here have disappeared completely now that their unicorn dreams haven't materialised or gone very sheepish and started to severely back-track but in a way which still doesn't show any admission that they were totally duped. Amazing scenes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Hundreds Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Still waiting for the leading Brexiteers in this farce to tell us what they propose and how they propose we do it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 Dominic Raab as next PM haha. He didn't even realise the importance of the Dover-Calais trade route lol. Everyone's Brexit heroes - Boris, Gove, JRM, Raab, Davies, etc. Politicians that certain people were championing as potential leaders of this country have all been shown to be incapable liars who are in this for nobody but themselves. It was clear as day all along. How some people missed it is still incredible to me. Unfathomable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxNotFox Posted 15 November 2018 Share Posted 15 November 2018 (edited) Oh, it's just getting better and better as the day goes on.... Gove will take the job if he can renegotiate the deal That man's front knows no bounds! Edited 15 November 2018 by FoxNotFox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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