Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Innovindil]

11 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I'm sorry, but no. Being terribly British and stoic about all of this isn't going to work for me here I'm afraid.

 

Speaking personally, my employment was put under threat as a result of the referendum which caused a great deal of unnecessary stress and anxiety about my future. Luckily things have improved now, but if they balls this up then this isn't going to "sort itself out" for me or millions of others for various reasons. No-one should have to be a martyr for this utterly unavoidable bollocks. There are going to be casualties and it's not going to be pretty in this country for a long time.

So did you lose your job or not? Just out of curiosity. 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, The Doctor said:

At this point Izzy, that is naïve. The negotiations are a mess, experts from every area are pointing out the issues this is going to cause with pharmaceuticals, retail products, engineering, food... Thinking this is going to work out well is not a rational position to take. At this point if the government had any sense of duty to the country they'd tell us we were stupid to embark on this and cancel this foolish endeavour, like spotting a child walking towards a plug socket with a fork and stopping them before they hurt themselves.

This is in the event of a No Deal isn't it? No one is still advocating that aside from a couple of extremely hardcore Eurosceptics.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

If you say so.

 

Better go and stock pile my baked beans and paracetamol then start building my nuclear bunker then 

 

Call me naive but I choose to be glass half full and believe in a brighter future.

 

You think I don't *want* to do that? You think I don't *want* this to work? Idealism and optimism are wonderful things, but at some point you have to just face the reality. The facts. How this is going to affect your everyday life. As I've mentioned before, I genuinely entered the referendum campaign with an open mind because I thought "well, there must be *some* good reason why people are so keen on this?", but now I'm well beyond the point of believing this was ever anything other than a terrible idea.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

So did you lose your job or not? Just out of curiosity. 

Still in the job thankfully.

[Izzy]

11 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

You think I don't *want* to do that? You think I don't *want* this to work? Idealism and optimism are wonderful things, but at some point you have to just face the reality. The facts. How this is going to affect your everyday life. As I've mentioned before, I genuinely entered the referendum campaign with an open mind because I thought "well, there must be *some* good reason why people are so keen on this?", but now I'm well beyond the point of believing this was ever anything other than a terrible idea.

See, I really don’t think all this will effect my every day life that much either way. That’s kinda my point. 

Whatever the outcome, I’ll just play the hand I’m dealt the same as I have the last 45 years. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

See, I really don’t think all this will effect my every day life that much either way. That’s kinda my point. 

Whatever the outcome, I’ll just play the hand I’m dealt the same as I have the last 45 years. 

Lucky you. I really, really hope you're right.

[TheUltimateWinner]

I think this was always going to happen and will continue to happen. Everyone has their own idea with brexit, no faction is big enough to push through their own idea of brexit. It’s a mess and it always will be.

[1972 Fox]

[Guest MattP]

The house is a tough watch today, May is getting it from all sides.

Sounds like a letter goes in from Jacob Rees-Mogg as well to Graham Brady today.

[Carl the Llama]

Shocking that nobody's happy with the outcome.  Remember when remainers were laughed at and called undemocratic for saying the question was too vague?  Remember when it was unpatriotic quislings who questioned the outcome?  Nobody could have seen this coming.

[yorkie1999]

Too many indians wanting to be chiefs. A hard brexit was/is the only way to stop all the in fighting as there's simply no arguments and no fighting over crumbs from the eu table. A case of, that's it, now get on with it.

[Guest MattP]

Not a single Labour moderate or Leaver has stood up to back it, even moderate Tories are standing up to trash it. What's the point of even putting this to a vote in parliament? It's dead already. A total waste of time. We also have the legal obligation to pay 39billion whatever, how the fcuk did we end up in that situation when we were a net contributor to the club in the first place?

 

I don't really see the point in wasting anymore time here, she isn't going to change, she can't win the vote so this is all ridiculous.

[RoboFox]

17 minutes ago, Blue Fox 72 said:

That's more like Dominic Raab C. Nesbitt.

 

[purpleronnie]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

See, I really don’t think all this will effect my every day life that much either way. That’s kinda my point. 

Whatever the outcome, I’ll just play the hand I’m dealt the same as I have the last 45 years. 

Lets just hope that the ones that will be effected are effected in a positive way.

[lgfualol]

It seems to be going really well.. 

[purpleronnie]

On ‎10‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 22:52, purpleronnie said:

Can anyone see anything else than us crashing out with a No deal?

 

Surely the EU won't agree to the current deal the Tories have, May won't want make any more concessions and face losing any support she still has, but then if she does crash us out she'll be humiliated which surely means resignation.

 

I guess then we'll find out if a No deal really is a disaster or not.

 

 

 it seems my post is edging closer.

[Izzy]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

Lucky you. I really, really hope you're right.

I don’t think it’s about luck. I just think we can only influence whats within our own personal control.

 

Theres so much in life we can’t control (eg Brexit) so why get hung up worrying about it? 

 

We all get given the same rules of the game and then we all do our best within those guidelines.

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

This is the most embarrassing political shit show I have ever witnessed. 

[Kopfkino]

27 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not a single Labour moderate or Leaver has stood up to back it, even moderate Tories are standing up to trash it. What's the point of even putting this to a vote in parliament? It's dead already. A total waste of time. We also have the legal obligation to pay 39billion whatever, how the fcuk did we end up in that situation when we were a net contributor to the club in the first place?

 

I don't really see the point in wasting anymore time here, she isn't going to change, she can't win the vote so this is all ridiculous.

 

But yet, I guarantee that, at best a very small handful, have any idea how to do it differently let alone better. Of course they probably think they have the answer. Obviously some are using it to try to get us to remain, well the pitfalls of that are a well trodden discussion. Some will be objecting for a second referendum to 'legitimise' their desire to remain. Then there'll be some thinking we can just do a Norway, completely missing the fact it doesn't solve NI, it still requires negotiating and accepting some of the Customs Code and Rules of Origin, and still requires a backstop just in case talks break down to prevent a hard border. Then there's the loonies who just think unicorns will fall out of the sky and it will all be fine. So really what do these people propose that's different. She has at least tried to negotiate some kind of deal that ensures we leave the EU and long-term most of its structures having to take account of red lines effectively forced on her 'to respect the referendum', with the complexity of NI to deal with, and with the national economic interest to think about.

 

We have a deal, that whilst is not perfect, ensures a lack of a hard border in Ireland, ensures that, when negotiations aren't complete by December 2020, the transition period can be extended such that we don't fall off a cliff, that if we need yet more time there will still be no hard border in Ireland and NI will mostly, but not entirely, be treated exactly the same as GB. Maybe it relies too much on good faith and that's a reason to worry. It's a deal that sets up a possible Canada+ FTA without the rush caused by falling off a cliff edge. Is it a good deal? Well not particularly but that's because of politics on both sides. But unless you expect unicorns to drop out of the sky; unless the politics on both sides shifts; unless the UK turns back time to create a better plan and doesn't destroy all good faith before starting then this is as good as it's likely to really get. 

 

The way out is GE, Corbyn majority, extend A50, he negotiates something completely different (but NI backstop is probably still going to be there). How likely is that? 

 

It's a pathetic state of affairs, bollocks to sovereignty because out polity isn't capable of it. 

[bovril]

I think what we're witnessing is the illusion of national sovereignty colliding with reality. 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I don’t think it’s about luck. I just think we can only influence whats within our own personal control.

 

Theres so much in life we can’t control (eg Brexit) so why get hung up worrying about it? 

 

We all get given the same rules of the game and then we all do our best within those guidelines.

 

1

It often is and we really don't.

 

But that's a discussion for another time and also one we've had before, I believe.

 

Referring to the days events...what an absolutely Shakespearian farce of a clusterfvck, and it's barely past midday. Were it not for the potential consequences it would be roundly funny.

[rachhere]

52 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Too many indians wanting to be chiefs. A hard brexit was/is the only way to stop all the in fighting as there's simply no arguments and no fighting over crumbs from the eu table. A case of, that's it, now get on with it.

It's all down to N. Ireland though isn't it, at the end of the day. 

[Guest MattP]

17 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

But yet, I guarantee that, at best a very small handful, have any idea how to do it differently let alone better. Of course they probably think they have the answer. Obviously some are using it to try to get us to remain, well the pitfalls of that are a well trodden discussion. Some will be objecting for a second referendum to 'legitimise' their desire to remain. Then there'll be some thinking we can just do a Norway, completely missing the fact it doesn't solve NI, it still requires negotiating and accepting some of the Customs Code and Rules of Origin, and still requires a backstop just in case talks break down to prevent a hard border. Then there's the loonies who just think unicorns will fall out of the sky and it will all be fine. So really what do these people propose that's different. She has at least tried to negotiate some kind of deal that ensures we leave the EU and long-term most of its structures having to take account of red lines effectively forced on her 'to respect the referendum', with the complexity of NI to deal with, and with the national economic interest to think about.

 

We have a deal, that whilst is not perfect, ensures a lack of a hard border in Ireland, ensures that, when negotiations aren't complete by December 2020, the transition period can be extended such that we don't fall off a cliff, that if we need yet more time there will still be no hard border in Ireland and NI will mostly, but not entirely, be treated exactly the same as GB. Maybe it relies too much on good faith and that's a reason to worry. It's a deal that sets up a possible Canada+ FTA without the rush caused by falling off a cliff edge. Is it a good deal? Well not particularly but that's because of politics on both sides. But unless you expect unicorns to drop out of the sky; unless the politics on both sides shifts; unless the UK turns back time to create a better plan and doesn't destroy all good faith before starting then this is as good as it's likely to really get. 

 

The way out is GE, Corbyn majority, extend A50, he negotiates something completely different (but NI backstop is probably still going to be there). How likely is that? 

 

It's a pathetic state of affairs, bollocks to sovereignty because out polity isn't capable of it. 

What many have done today is stood up and praised her for the amount of work she had put in and they should do, what I can't understand now at this point in time is why she made so many promises that she must have knew weren't going to be kept, on Northern Ireland it appears she's completely led the DUP up the garden path and Nigel Dodds openly said in parliament he has given up now on discussing it with her.

To be fair to the EU they were quite clear when it got to the crunch that it was either Norway and Canada and we've managed to come up with something that appears to be inbetween the two that seems to be the worst of both Worlds along with the impossible clause that we can't unilaterally withdraw, I mean we can unilaterally withdraw from NATO (bad idea before anyone jumps on me) if we want but we can't from this agreement, that's just outrageous.

For what's it's worth I can still getting a Norway style deal through parliament and then revisiting after a General Election could be possible, the problem is that this issue isn't ever going to be resolved fully for some time. Giving the voting pattern in some nations the European Union might even collapse before we've finished our exit in full. The last line is why this is all so tragic, I just wish the politicians had wanted so much scrutiny when we were giving the sovereignty away in the first place, had we done so we might not be in this mess.

Talking of Corbyn negotiating it is pointless, he committed to getting a deal whatever so he may as well just sign whatever they come up with, I'd imagine it wouldn't be too dissimilar to this with whole thing being dressed up as "a customs union" - for the first time today he expressed concern about state aid laws so we know exactly the road he wants to go down, a lot in his party just can't see it.

 

Which is another extremely bizarre point in this debate, many of those who are the most fearful of Brexit also seem to be voting for his economic policy which most "experts" seem to think will be just as damaging to the country as a  bad or no deal, but that's an argument for another day.

Edited 15 November 2018 by MattP

[The Guvnor]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

They sit there while May and Robbins negotiate with Barnier so they can look like they have Brexiteer as part of the negotiation. 

 

Same reason it appears Liam Fox has a job.

I think you're right Matt. It is pretty obvious now that Robbins has been running the show with the mandate to secure a deal at any cost. Raab and indeed Davis have been trojan horses.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, The Guvnor said:

I think you're right Matt. It is pretty obvious now that Robbins has been running the show with the mandate to secure a deal at any cost. Raab and indeed Davis have been trojan horses.

Completely agree, they knew we were never serious about no deal and if that's the case you are already defeated in the negotiation.

 

Apparently Gove has been offered the job now