Unpopular Opinions You Hold

[Innovindil]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

People should stop calling the milkshake incidents "assault" and describing them as political violence.  By all means discuss whether it's a childish and uncalled for act of protest but I've seen too many people unironically refer to it as leftists undermining democracy through violence as though uncontrollable leftist violence is one of the biggest themes of these past few years which definitely haven't seen multiple people get murdered by neo-Nazis.  It's a milkshake for goodness sake.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48347994

 

The thrower has been charged with assault. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it was probably assault. 

Edited 21 May 2019 by Innovindil

[Innovindil]

3 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 

Edited 21 May 2019 by Innovindil
The fk is this phone doing

[Carl the Llama]

Just now, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-48347994

 

The thrower has been charged with assault. So I'm gonna go out in a limb and say it was probably assault. 

In legal terms, yes, but in legalese assault is an umbrella term that covers hundreds of degrees of severity.  In everyday language the word is used to describe a physically violent act, throwing a milkshake is a physical transgression but I disagree that it classifies as violence, indeed I'd argue that it's a sign of unwillingness to commit true violence. 

 

Again I'm happy to hear people saying it's wrong and childish but talking like it's a vicious assault just makes you sound silly.  In Carl Benjamin's case saying it undermines the fabric of our democracy is even sillier when instead of saying that about the murder of Jo Cox he used it as yet another example of something he disagrees with but unfortunately leftists cause good people to do bad things.

[Saxondale]

21 hours ago, Stadt said:

No fan of the bloke but Farage having milkshakes lobbed over him isn’t on. Seen a lot of people celebrating it doesn’t make it acceptable because it’s somebody you dislike. 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

That's a popular opinion with me, I'm afraid.

 

Only makes it more likely that his supporters will go out and vote for him. Likewise, with Tommy Robinson - just fuels his supporters' fake victim complexes.

 

Also makes it more likely that it will happen to others (Corbyn got egged a couple of months back) and, more seriously, that some idiot with a screw loose launches a more serious attack on one or other politician.

Challenge any politician verbally, that's fine - or boo them - but no need to get physical, even with the banana and salted caramel milkshake. 

I refer to Tom Peck's column in the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-milkshake-brexit-a8922511.html

 

"Already, the rush to condemn the milkshakers, to stamp out the milkshake revolution overwhelms. You must defeat people’s arguments, you must not silence them, you must not shut them down with airborne soft drinks. This is true, but these are high principles, and there is the nitty-gritty of reality to consider.

 

"Ukip candidate Carl Benjamin had a milkshake thrown at him at the weekend. He has repeatedly made jokes about raping Labour MP Jess Phillips, and his own party refuses to condemn him for it. He remains a candidate. This kind of thing is outside of the rule book for liberal democracies. The game, as it’s meant to be played, is already lost."

[The Bear]

Of course it's assault. If you threw a drink at a Policeman you wouldn't expect him to just send you on your way. 

 

Also, you don't even have to touch someone for it to be assault. Just threatening violence and the person fearing for their safety is enough to qualify. 

Edited 21 May 2019 by The Bear

[Innovindil]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

In legal terms, yes, but in legalese assault is an umbrella term that covers hundreds of degrees of severity.  In everyday language the word is used to describe a physically violent act, throwing a milkshake is a physical transgression but I disagree that it classifies as violence, indeed I'd argue that it's a sign of unwillingness to commit true violence. 

 

Again I'm happy to hear people saying it's wrong and childish but talking like it's a vicious assault just makes you sound silly.  In Carl Benjamin's case saying it undermines the fabric of our democracy is even sillier when instead of saying that about the murder of Jo Cox he used it as yet another example of something he disagrees with but unfortunately leftists cause good people to do bad things.

 Why does it? The man was going about his business and got assaulted and publicly humiliated. At a time when people are working tirelessly to spread the word that emotional pain can be just as bad or worse than physical pain I don't understand how it can so cavalierly pooh-pooh'd aside as silliness to point out it's serious. 

 

While I have no doubt people would silently cheer the likes of Farage or Robinson offing themselves over something like this it shouldn't take them doing so for people to take it seriously. 

 

That's not even taking into account letting any of this nonsense become socially acceptable runs the risk of it snowballing from there... 

 

And simply saying *look at the Nazis over there!* who I stress were HEAVILY condemned from pretty much all sides shouldn't make this anymore acceptable either. 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, The Bear said:

Of course it's assault. If you threw a drink at a Policeman you wouldn't expect him to just send you on your way. 

 

Also, you don't even have to touch someone for it to be assault. Just threatening violence and the person fearing for their safety is enough to qualify. 

1

 

Is that not threatening behaviour?

 

What do you say, @David Guiza ?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Saxondale said:

 

I refer to Tom Peck's column in the Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-milkshake-brexit-a8922511.html

 

"Already, the rush to condemn the milkshakers, to stamp out the milkshake revolution overwhelms. You must defeat people’s arguments, you must not silence them, you must not shut them down with airborne soft drinks. This is true, but these are high principles, and there is the nitty-gritty of reality to consider.

 

"Ukip candidate Carl Benjamin had a milkshake thrown at him at the weekend. He has repeatedly made jokes about raping Labour MP Jess Phillips, and his own party refuses to condemn him for it. He remains a candidate. This kind of thing is outside of the rule book for liberal democracies. The game, as it’s meant to be played, is already lost."

 

Criticism of milkshake throwers shouldn't be OTT. It's not on a par with making sinister threats, never mind a violent attack or murder.

There's always been the odd egg or tomato thrown - and the thrower takes the consequence if the police grab them. But accepting it as a general or necessary way forward is something else.

 

It's a negative development. Firstly, it's tactical stupidity. Some people who already agree with the thrower may piss themselves laughing, but those who agree with the "recipient" will be more fired up to support him, seeing him as the righteous victim of anti-democratic thugs trying to silence them - and neutrals are more likely to agree with the latter than the former.

 

Secondly, if "the game" is already lost and it's OK for Farage to be milkshook every time he appears, presumably the same applies to Corbyn, May, the journalist, you or me? A recipe for stopping debate and causing more hostile polarisation.

It's like stopping people speaking: if it's OK for one side to stop Farage speaking, it's presumably OK for other people to stop everyone expressing their views? Let's go the whole hog and give up on free speech, political debate, democracy and civilisation because some crappy, frustrating stuff is happening? 

 

I'd like to believe that UKIP's association with Yaxley-Lennon and Benjamin partly explains why they've slumped in the polls, will probably get no MEPs (having won the last Euro election) and could soon cease to exist. That might be naive, as most of its vote has switched to the Brexit Party because of Farage as a personality and the single-issue pro-Brexit message. But baiting Muslims and making sinister "jokes" about women isn't winning them support....suggesting "the game, as it's meant to be played" is NOT lost. Might be fraying at the edges a bit....

 

People are NOT doing nothing to stop Farage spreading his ideas. Plenty of people are opposing his views, even if they're not doing it very successfully for these elections. Gordon Brown was challenging his funding just yesterday, likewise C4 News. His 2016 "Breaking Point" poster has been widely challenged. 

 

That article reads as if written by an articulate 12-year-old who hasn't thought things through and is showing off to impress his classmates. The Independent has fallen a long way....

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Criticism of milkshake throwers shouldn't be OTT. It's not on a par with making sinister threats, never mind a violent attack or murder.

There's always been the odd egg or tomato thrown - and the thrower takes the consequence if the police grab them. But accepting it as a general or necessary way forward is something else.

 

It's a negative development. Firstly, it's tactical stupidity. Some people who already agree with the thrower may piss themselves laughing, but those who agree with the "recipient" will be more fired up to support him, seeing him as the righteous victim of anti-democratic thugs trying to silence them - and neutrals are more likely to agree with the latter than the former.

 

Secondly, if "the game" is already lost and it's OK for Farage to be milkshook every time he appears, presumably the same applies to Corbyn, May, the journalist, you or me? A recipe for stopping debate and causing more hostile polarisation.

It's like stopping people speaking: if it's OK for one side to stop Farage speaking, it's presumably OK for other people to stop everyone expressing their views? Let's go the whole hog and give up on free speech, political debate, democracy and civilisation because some crappy, frustrating stuff is happening? 

 

I'd like to believe that UKIP's association with Yaxley-Lennon and Benjamin partly explains why they've slumped in the polls, will probably get no MEPs (having won the last Euro election) and could soon cease to exist. That might be naive, as most of its vote has switched to the Brexit Party because of Farage as a personality and the single-issue pro-Brexit message. But baiting Muslims and making sinister "jokes" about women isn't winning them support....suggesting "the game, as it's meant to be played" is NOT lost. Might be fraying at the edges a bit....

 

People are NOT doing nothing to stop Farage spreading his ideas. Plenty of people are opposing his views, even if they're not doing it very successfully for these elections. Gordon Brown was challenging his funding just yesterday, likewise C4 News. His 2016 "Breaking Point" poster has been widely challenged. 

 

That article reads as if written by an articulate 12-year-old who hasn't thought things through and is showing off to impress his classmates. The Independent has fallen a long way....

Which the Brexit Party has banned, apparently. Fraying at the edges, as you said.

[David Guiza]

17 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Is that not threatening behaviour?

 

What do you say, @David Guiza ?

Been a few years since I studied Criminal Law but there is case law that states words can be classed as assault, but the remit effectively says that the words/threats must result in the victim fearing immediate violence. In that case the words were over a particularly long period of time though, not a barrage of insults in one instance. There's also a case that confirmed silence (it was a series of silent phone calls) can also constitute assault on the basis that psychiatric harm can amount to assault. 

 

So yes, technically, but no in the vast majority of circumstances. 

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Which the Brexit Party has banned, apparently. Fraying at the edges, as you said.

 

That sounds like a tactically stupid decision by Farage, banning C4 News from Brexit Party events for querying its funding - and exposing the vast sums paid to Farage by Banks after he'd quit UKIP.

 

It's clearly a genuine issue, not some "elite lefty establishment conspiracy" as the Electoral Commission is investigating, isn't it?

 

Hopefully, the question marks over his funding and his own opposition to free speech and investigative journalism will now get maximum publicity on other media.

 

Wouldn't bank on it having too much impact, though, in this shrill, polarised, Trumpian, post-truth era....

[Finnegan]

The words "post-truth era" make me want to leave the planet. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

The words "post-truth era" make me want to leave the planet. 

Why? There was never a "truth-era".

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

 Why does it? The man was going about his business and got assaulted and publicly humiliated. At a time when people are working tirelessly to spread the word that emotional pain can be just as bad or worse than physical pain I don't understand how it can so cavalierly pooh-pooh'd aside as silliness to point out it's serious. 

 

While I have no doubt people would silently cheer the likes of Farage or Robinson offing themselves over something like this it shouldn't take them doing so for people to take it seriously. 

 

That's not even taking into account letting any of this nonsense become socially acceptable runs the risk of it snowballing from there... 

 

And simply saying *look at the Nazis over there!* who I stress were HEAVILY condemned from pretty much all sides shouldn't make this anymore acceptable either. 

Because there's nothing vicious about it.  You must see that choosing a dairy product as your weapon of choice demonstrates no willingness to cause any actual harm, surely?  I take your point about mental health but I think that's looking too deeply into things. 

 

Who's saying look at the Nazis?  I've mentioned them in my chat with MC but only as a genuinely relevant part of the discourse.

 

48 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Criticism of milkshake throwers shouldn't be OTT. It's not on a par with making sinister threats, never mind a violent attack or murder.

There's always been the odd egg or tomato thrown - and the thrower takes the consequence if the police grab them. But accepting it as a general or necessary way forward is something else.

 

It's a negative development. Firstly, it's tactical stupidity. Some people who already agree with the thrower may piss themselves laughing, but those who agree with the "recipient" will be more fired up to support him, seeing him as the righteous victim of anti-democratic thugs trying to silence them - and neutrals are more likely to agree with the latter than the former.

 

Secondly, if "the game" is already lost and it's OK for Farage to be milkshook every time he appears, presumably the same applies to Corbyn, May, the journalist, you or me? A recipe for stopping debate and causing more hostile polarisation.

It's like stopping people speaking: if it's OK for one side to stop Farage speaking, it's presumably OK for other people to stop everyone expressing their views? Let's go the whole hog and give up on free speech, political debate, democracy and civilisation because some crappy, frustrating stuff is happening? 

 

I'd like to believe that UKIP's association with Yaxley-Lennon and Benjamin partly explains why they've slumped in the polls, will probably get no MEPs (having won the last Euro election) and could soon cease to exist. That might be naive, as most of its vote has switched to the Brexit Party because of Farage as a personality and the single-issue pro-Brexit message. But baiting Muslims and making sinister "jokes" about women isn't winning them support....suggesting "the game, as it's meant to be played" is NOT lost. Might be fraying at the edges a bit....

 

People are NOT doing nothing to stop Farage spreading his ideas. Plenty of people are opposing his views, even if they're not doing it very successfully for these elections. Gordon Brown was challenging his funding just yesterday, likewise C4 News. His 2016 "Breaking Point" poster has been widely challenged. 

 

That article reads as if written by an articulate 12-year-old who hasn't thought things through and is showing off to impress his classmates. The Independent has fallen a long way....

That's all very fair and I can't say you're wrong and I love your use of "milkshook".

 

But...

 

 

 

I think make it a law that milkshaking is legally permissable but only towards individuals who have taken it upon themselves to enter the political profession.  Would that satisfy the slippery slopers?

[The Horse's Mouth]

At least with eggs or tomatoes you need a decent technique, a milkshake is just lazy.

[Alf Bentley]

14 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

 

That's all very fair and I can't say you're wrong and I love your use of "milkshook".

 

But...

 

 

 

I think make it a law that milkshaking is legally permissable but only towards individuals who have taken it upon themselves to enter the political profession.  Would that satisfy the slippery slopers?

 

Yeah, amusing enough if it's the odd isolated incident. It's always happened. The culprit gets a fine, whatever. Benjamin's rape "jokes" were much more sinister.

 

But this is at least 4 identical milkshake incidents in a couple of weeks - and the article quoted suggested that this was a good, or at least acceptable thing, as liberal democracy & normal debate were dead.

 

I see it as in line with stopping people from speaking because you don't like what they have to say. Wrong, unhealthy for society and almost always counter-productive. 

Here it plays straight into the "victim complex" of those who support half-baked/provocative reactionary nationalist populism (Farage) or the Far Right (Benjamin & Robinson) - it's the liberal elite, crushing free speech & the voice of the people, innit? 

 

Meanwhile, it's distracted media attention away from much more important Farage issues - Channel 4 News revelations that he received vast wealth, post-Brexit, from a bloke under investigation for all sorts of dodgy financial stuff (Banks) and Gordon Brown's bona fide questions about where the Brexit Party's money is coming from, which has led the Electoral Commission to investigate whether it's in breach of rules on funding/transparency.

 

So, well done, Mr. Milkshake Man - you've helped Farage out twice over!

I read that he works for Sky, of all people - wonder what Nigel & Rupert make of that?

[bovril]

Don't want to get all pissy over a thread I started but can we have a bit of distinction between the politics thread and the "I actually quite like Beyonce" thread. 

[bovril]

I do actually quite like Beyonce. 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

So, well done, Mr. Milkshake Man - you've helped Farage out twice over!

I read that he works for Sky, of all people - wonder what Nigel & Rupert make of that?

It was probably staged by them.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

I do actually quite like Beyonce. 

 

Lacks both Abba's melancholic pop sensibility and Penny Mordaunt's aura of sensual mystery, IMHO.

[bovril]

13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Lacks both Abba's melancholic pop sensibility and Penny Mordaunt's aura of sensual mystery, IMHO.

I genuinely lolled. 

[SemperEadem]

Folk that get their knickers in a twist over pineapple being on a pizza need to grow up.

[Buce]

9 hours ago, SemperEadem said:

Folk that get their knickers in a twist over pineapple being on a pizza need to grow up.

 

Surely you can see their point?

 

[Finnegan]

13 hours ago, SemperEadem said:

Folk that get their knickers in a twist over pineapple being on a pizza need to grow up.

 

This was an unpopular opinion on reddit the other day that got like tens of thousands of positive karma and whatever. 

 

It just struck me as ironically taking other people too seriously whilst sort of accusing then of taking pizza too seriously? 

 

Pineapple on pizza is just one of those on running, probably not very funny, persistent jokes that everyone has a bit of a chuckle over? No? 

 

I don't know anyone that's legitimately serious about this shit. Like my friends and I will pretend to argue over it but it's just crap banter, nobody actually gives a toss? 

 

Just seems to in being genuinely annoyed enough about it to think that those people need to "grow up" you're probably, conversely, the person most in need of, well, you get it. 

 

Maybe that means it's just a very successful unpopular opinion so well done haha. But ?‍♂️

[bovril]

Ooh I'm back in. What happened to the limbo / chebs thread?