What to do about the defense?

[FoxinNotts]

On 18/09/2018 at 16:31, STUHILL said:

Get our best players out there in a formation and system that brings out their strengths whilst also nullifying their weaknesses.

 

Chilwell and Periera - Great in attack, poor defensively. Overwhelmingly suited to being Wingbacks

Maguire - Slow as fook, but adequately covered and quality in a back 3 where he can roam forward with the ball

Evans - Also slow as fook, but put central in a 3, and adequately covered and able to command the line with his experience

Vardy - Too isolated and easily dealt with in this formation/style, needs an additional striker alongside him

Soyuncu - Signed with promises of first team football. Big reputation of a talented ball playing CB. Ideal for a back 3

 

That's 7 players including Iheanacho, that I feel in theory, would hugely benefit from a switch in formation. It gives us so much more balance and allows the players we have to play to their key strengths. Puel can keep his possession based football and his flying wing backs, but also make us more solid in defence and add another striker to help an increasingly isolated Vardy. 

 

 

Can’t really argue with any of that tbf

[elvisfmcfly]

12 hours ago, FIF said:

Do you want boring park the bus defensive football like Newcastle or fun attacking, goal leaking football?

 

Those of you who expect us to have clean sheets and score goals are not really living in the real world.

 

Personally I can accept shipping a few goals as long as we play fun attacking football and score a few too.

Are you seriously saying under Puel we have fun football? Yes we can knock it about in the middle of the park but the only time we score goals is when we are out of the game already and the other team switches off! You’re not real.

[RumbleFox]

On 18/09/2018 at 16:31, STUHILL said:

Get our best players out there in a formation and system that brings out their strengths whilst also nullifying their weaknesses.

 

Chilwell and Periera - Great in attack, poor defensively. Overwhelmingly suited to being Wingbacks

Maguire - Slow as fook, but adequately covered and quality in a back 3 where he can roam forward with the ball

Evans - Also slow as fook, but put central in a 3, and adequately covered and able to command the line with his experience

Vardy - Too isolated and easily dealt with in this formation/style, needs an additional striker alongside him

Soyuncu - Signed with promises of first team football. Big reputation of a talented ball playing CB. Ideal for a back 3

 

That's 7 players including Iheanacho, that I feel in theory, would hugely benefit from a switch in formation. It gives us so much more balance and allows the players we have to play to their key strengths. Puel can keep his possession based football and his flying wing backs, but also make us more solid in defence and add another striker to help an increasingly isolated Vardy. 

 

 

I have never really been an advocate of 3 at the back (since O'Neill) and not many of the top teams seem to use it but I must admit we do seem to have the squad for it at the moment and I would certainly be interested in seeing what it looked like at least.  On paper something like the below does look promising....

 

                          Kasper

           Soyuncu  Evans  Maguire

     Ricardo                           Chilwell

                     Ndidi  Mendy

                       Maddison

                  Iheanacho  Vardy

 

My preference is still probably for a 4231 with a settled back four but a three at the back is tempting.  Though Puel has never consistently utilised a back three so not sure how likely.

 

X

Edited 19 September 2018 by RumbleFox

[Hanan96]

Back 3 won't be good to accommodate ghezzal and. Madison together so we need flexibility 

Starting :

 

In offensive, mendy or iborra will drop deep as 3rd cb with maguire and soyuncu cover wide areas

 

[Pete from the USA]

9 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

I know this is worthy of the foxestalk death penalty, but 3-5-2 is really the way to go isnt it?  I know Puel has never played the system but surely football managers are supposed to be adaptable and it seems we have the perfect players to make this work. 

 

Maguire, Soyuncu, evans are ball playing centre halves that would thrive with the extra defender as all 3 are prone to defensive brain farts.  Whilst Wes lacks the pace to keep up, as a 3 any of the four would fit well IMO. As a 2 we are always going to ship goals. 

 

Chillwell and Ricardo both have more attacking qualities then defensive, but neither are good enough to play a flat wing role.  (Albrighton has proven he can also play excellently in this role)

 

Mendy, Ndidi and Ibora- all of these are most comfortable in a holding role rather than box to box and would look good tidying things up in front of the back 3. 

 

Maddison is perfect to sit just in front, Ghezal would also look goord and I actually think Demari would be a handful to deputise in this position. 

 

Iheanacho gets to play! This is huge for me as I think we are missing out on something with this guy, give him a run of games and goals will flow.  

 

In tough fixtures or away games, we can use the workhorse that is Shinji.

 

The potential of this line up really is mouth watering, I know we need to stop going on about it but when you watch a game like Bournemouth its hard to not think about how we've dropped points AGAIN in a winnable game. One that you need to be smart about and not treat like the lesser teams in the league, they are simply too good to paint with the same brush and its these teams I think we seem to struggle against. 

 

Rant over, ill await my hanging. 

 

                             Kasper

            Soyuncu  Maguire   Evans  

Ricardo                                           Chillwell

                 Mendy               Ndidi

                           Maddison

                  Iheanacho

                                     Vardy

 

 

 

 

OK, I will stick my neck out too and say I think you are spot on. The players we recruited fit perfectly into the system (above). We even have cover in each of the roles:

 

Center backs (choose three): Maguire, Morgan, Evans, Soyuncu 

 

Wingbacks (choose two): Ricardo, Albrighton, Gray, Ghezzal

 

Holding/transitioning midfielders (choose three): Ndidi, Maddison, Mendy, Iborra, Silva

 

Strikers (choose two): Vardy, Iheanacho, Okazaki

 

It almost makes you think that Puel is not stupid or crazy but has a master plan.

 

If this is it, I predict the next player to come in will be a young, quick striker. That would be really cool. 

 

I am excited about the future despite recent mediocre results. 

 

Edited 20 September 2018 by Pete from the USA

[Dan]

3 hours ago, elvisfmcfly said:

Are you seriously saying under Puel we have fun football? Yes we can knock it about in the middle of the park but the only time we score goals is when we are out of the game already and the other team switches off! You’re not real.

Got to agree I'm afraid. The fun, goal-leaking football was around this time three years ago - that run of three games in five where we went 2-0 down and got something and the 2-5 loss to Arsenal.

 

Going 4 down at Bournemouth and scoring two consolation goals isn't fun. That was just goal leaking.

 

If he doesn't sort the defending out he will get the sack and it'll be deserved. He's now got the perfect opportunity to phase Morgan out of the side. If he's back in at Newcastle then I'll be extremely concerned.

[Pete from the USA]

3 hours ago, RumbleFox said:

I have never really been an advocate of 3 at the back (since O'Neill) and not many of the top teams seem to use it but I must admit we do seem to have the squad for it at the moment and I would certainly be interested in seeing what it looked like at least.  On paper something like the below does look promising....

 

                          Kasper

           Soyuncu  Evans  Maguire

     Ricardo                           Chilwell

                     Ndidi  Mendy

                       Maddison

                  Iheanacho  Vardy

 

My preference is still probably for a 4231 with a settled back four but a three at the back is tempting.  Though Puel has never consistently utilised a back three so not sure how likely.

 

X

I agree. Folks, I think we have figured out what Puel is doing (see also above posts from @Lambert09 and @STUHILL). Puel is getting ready to transition us to a back three with wingbacks. This is why he brought in Ricardo and three center backs. 4-2-3-1 is a transition lineup to get the squad ready to change systems.

 

At some point he is going to have to roll the dice and switch. When he does he will either succeed or get fired. He won't sleep well the night before.

Edited 20 September 2018 by Pete from the USA

[HoustonFox]

I posted in another thread that I think it’s 532 /352 / 32212 (the latter being my preference with Madders at 10) time. 

 

Obviously people have talked about all the back line salient points, as well as the fit for Ricardo and Chilwell. 

 

I’d like to offer two other thoughts. 

 

First is Ndidi and Silva (beef him up a bit though please) in midfield to help give us a more box to box metronomic passer. Nampalys has had a good start but he doesn’t quite have the speed of thought and ability to keep things ticking as much. He may get it in time. Wilf is an out and out destroyer so keep him there to do that. Silva could be a key link up man. 

 

Second point is 4231 is poor or Vardy. He needs a partner to feed off, and with him and Nacho, with wingbacks to provide crosses (to actually someone!) and Madders tucked in behind, that could be so cool, and I get excited about the chances we could make. Add a confident Silva linking and spraying passes to either flank, or threading the needle. Ooh boy...

 

...and then I woke up. 4231 on Sat. Evans for Wes. Prove me wrong Claude, I support you, please support me and my dreams! OUR dreams. Foxestalk loves sexy football 

[Hanan96]

4 hours ago, Pete from the USA said:

OK, I will stick my neck out too and say I think you are spot on. The players we recruited fit perfectly into the system (above). We even have cover in each of the roles:

 

Center backs (choose three): Maguire, Morgan, Evans, Soyuncu 

 

Wingbacks (choose two): Ricardo, Albrighton, Gray, Ghezzal

 

Holding/transitioning midfielders (choose three): Ndidi, Maddison, Mendy, Iborra, Silva

 

Strikers (choose two): Vardy, Iheanacho, Okazaki

 

It almost makes you think that Puel is not stupid or crazy but has a master plan.

 

If this is it, I predict the next player to come in will be a young, quick striker. That would be really cool. 

 

I am excited about the future despite recent mediocre results. 

 

The time gray played  as wing back, we were conceded 5 goals. Against Tottenham and Crystal Palace. 

 

3 back would never suit the likes of ghezzal and gray, except put them in front which will sacrifie nacho or madison

[Captain...]

The problem isn’t just the defence/defensive shape it is also our lack of threat with the ball. We are in danger of becoming the sort of team we would rip to shreds 2015/16 possession for possession’s sake fanny about with it in midfield get caught on the break. We don’t control games when we have the ball and grind teams down and we don’t offer enough of a threat to dictate the game from a higher line. The opposition don’t worry about us enough in possession to keep players back, when we lose the ball they know they can pile forwards because we will give them time to get back.

 

Playing with attacking full backs means we do get an overload on the flanks but it takes longer for the full back to get up in support, so you need to wait to use the overlap and then it is often wasted as we have nobody to cross it in to.

 

If we can dictate the play dominate the possession and have a greater attacking threat then we can play a back 4 with a high line and attacking fullbacks but when we give away the ball cheaply or pump aimless crosses into the box we are just asking to be punished.

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, Captain... said:

The problem isn’t just the defence/defensive shape it is also our lack of threat with the ball. We are in danger of becoming the sort of team we would rip to shreds 2015/16 possession for possession’s sake fanny about with it in midfield get caught on the break. We don’t control games when we have the ball and grind teams down and we don’t offer enough of a threat to dictate the game from a higher line. The opposition don’t worry about us enough in possession to keep players back, when we lose the ball they know they can pile forwards because we will give them time to get back.

 

Playing with attacking full backs means we do get an overload on the flanks but it takes longer for the full back to get up in support, so you need to wait to use the overlap and then it is often wasted as we have nobody to cross it in to.

 

If we can dictate the play dominate the possession and have a greater attacking threat then we can play a back 4 with a high line and attacking fullbacks but when we give away the ball cheaply or pump aimless crosses into the box we are just asking to be punished.

Spot on

[NotTheMarketLeader]

Read this thread and consider.

 

Everyone has said things are wrong and we need to do this, that or the other, and that includes ‘Puel inners’.

 

If after a year at the helm a large proportion of fans have major criticism of the managers selections and tactics, the conclusion has to be that he is not doing an adequate job. It is crystal clear to everyone, but not all are prepared to accept it for reasons only known to themselves.

 

[CosbehFox]

7 minutes ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

It is crystal clear to everyone, but not all are prepared to accept it for reasons only known to themselves.

 

Because there's an acceptance from some of us that there is no perfect tactical utopia. 

[Lambert09]

7 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

The time gray played  as wing back, we were conceded 5 goals. Against Tottenham and Crystal Palace. 

 

3 back would never suit the likes of ghezzal and gray, except put them in front which will sacrifie nacho or madison

Puel is a huge admirer of Gray but he wouldnt play him there. He'd be considered a striker if we were to play this system & Ghezal an attacking mid.  

 

 

The only players this system would harm would be Simpson, Silva (not sure he has the defensive attributes for this role)  and Gray. Anyone else would fit in perfectly. 

[Pete from the USA]

6 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

The time gray played  as wing back, we were conceded 5 goals. Against Tottenham and Crystal Palace. 

 

3 back would never suit the likes of ghezzal and gray, except put them in front which will sacrifie nacho or madison

Yes, Ghezzal and Gray don't like to defend. They are the weak spots in the system. I would start Albrighton and Ricardo as wingbacks. They don't defend that much either, but remember we'd have three center backs backing them up.

[lcfc sheff]

Defensively we’re making mistakes, I’m sure those will be ironed out in time. However, I actually take more concern with the centre midfielders, yet to see them dominate a game, or help the defense out enough when on the back foot. Arguably Hamza has been the only one to show that and that was last season! 

[Pete from the USA]

9 minutes ago, Lambert09 said:

Puel is a huge admirer of Gray but he wouldnt play him there. He'd be considered a striker if we were to play this system & Ghezal an attacking mid.  

 

 

The only players this system would harm would be Simpson, Silva (not sure he has the defensive attributes for this role)  and Gray. Anyone else would fit in perfectly. 

Silva might be a backup for Maddison. One of the three midfielders is more of a transition/attacking player.

[Pete from the USA]

4 hours ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

Read this thread and consider.

 

Everyone has said things are wrong and we need to do this, that or the other, and that includes ‘Puel inners’.

 

If after a year at the helm a large proportion of fans have major criticism of the managers selections and tactics, the conclusion has to be that he is not doing an adequate job. It is crystal clear to everyone, but not all are prepared to accept it for reasons only known to themselves.

 

I think the problem is that most fans can't see what Puel is doing. If you look at it in terms of evolving toward a 3-5-2 with wingbacks, all Puel's decisions have made perfect sense.

 

The point is that there is no right or wrong system. Whether we succeed or not depends on whether we plug away, sort out all the fine details, and get the system working. This is what Puel is doing.

 

If we fire the manager all we do is start the whole process over again. Then we wind up exactly where we are now, but 18 months in the future.

 

I think the owners understand this, which is why Puel is still around.

[murphy]

7 minutes ago, Pete from the USA said:

I think the problem is that most fans can't see what Puel is doing. If you look at it in terms of evolving toward a 3-5-2 with wingbacks, all Puel's decisions have made perfect sense.

 

The point is that there is no right or wrong system. Whether we succeed or not depends on whether we plug away, sort out all the fine details, and get the system working. This is what Puel is doing.

 

If we fire the manager all we do is start the whole process over again. Then we wind up exactly where we are now, but 18 months in the future.

 

I think the owners understand this, which is why Puel is still around.

Except for the decision not to play that formation here.

 

I think Puel is the type of manager who has his own entrenched formula and style - with Puel we are going to get 4-2-3-1

[RumbleFox]

14 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

Back 3 won't be good to accommodate ghezzal and. Madison together so we need flexibility 

Starting :

 

In offensive, mendy or iborra will drop deep as 3rd cb with maguire and soyuncu cover wide areas

 

This would probably be my first choice too.  But it would need a little patience and the back four would need time to develop.  The potential is there though.  X

[turtmcfly]

4 hours ago, NotTheMarketLeader said:

Read this thread and consider.

 

Everyone has said things are wrong and we need to do this, that or the other, and that includes ‘Puel inners’.

 

If after a year at the helm a large proportion of fans have major criticism of the managers selections and tactics, the conclusion has to be that he is not doing an adequate job. It is crystal clear to everyone, but not all are prepared to accept it for reasons only known to themselves.

 

 

Saying 'things are wrong' doesn't necessarily equate to a 'major criticism of the managers selections and tactics'. Even if it did... being 'Puel in' doesn't even have to mean that you're particularly keen on him, it could simply mean you don't think there's a better alternative currently available. A 'Puel not out', if you like.

 

I'm 'Puel in' because even if I could see a viable alternative (I can't) I would like him to have more time to show whether he can make what I think is a necessary transition. A year into their respective tenures in the Prem, fans would have found plenty wrong with Ferguson, Klopp and Guardiola. I saw the back end of last year largely as an exercise in Puel proving to himself (and importantly themselves too) which members of the squad were and weren't capable of playing in a new system. On Saturday we will likely be starting with exactly half the outfield team being 'new' players (I'm putting Mendy in that category) - it's going to take time...

 

[Guest MattP]

Surprised people are still looking at Ricardo as a genuine full back option. We might get away with it Saturday but that's about it.

 

Even if you discard when he has been marauding up the pitch, he's already be caught out loads whilst actually in position. Even ignoring Liverpool, Bournemouth kept knocking balls past him easily to get in behind and he would have been at fault for two against Wolves from just basic poor defending. 

 

He just isn't going to be a defender in a mid table PL team.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Surprised people are still looking at Ricardo as a genuine full back option. We might get away with it Saturday but that's about it.

 

Even if you discard when he has been marauding up the pitch, he's already be caught out loads whilst actually in position. Even ignoring Liverpool, Bournemouth kept knocking balls past him easily to get in behind and he would have been at fault for two against Wolves from just basic poor defending. 

 

He just isn't going to be a defender in a mid table PL team.

Completely agree.

 

How many goals has he been at fault for now?

 

I know this won't please the people who love posting graphs and the twitter stats, but can only see him working as a wing back.

[OhYesNdidi]

13 minutes ago, Abrasive fox said:

Completely agree.

 

How many goals has he been at fault for now?

 

I know this won't please the people who love posting graphs and the twitter stats, but can only see him working as a wing back.

I think Ricardo should start home games but amartey should come in for the away games which should make us more solid. 

[Clever Fox]

18 minutes ago, Abrasive fox said:

Completely agree.

 

How many goals has he been at fault for now?

 

I know this won't please the people who love posting graphs and the twitter stats, but can only see him working as a wing back.

He started his career as a Winger so that tells you all you need to know. Amartey off so much more in the RB role. Yes he never looks comfortable, But he doesn't let you down either. He also covers Wes very well and has saved him many times.

i'd leave Ricardo out for a few games and let him watch from the sidelines where he might learn more. Gheezal or Albrighton can fill in the wing role.

Though I'd go with Albrighton for experience and maturity.

There's not a lot wrong with the Team except were short in midfield and short up top. We've got to play two up front Valdy and Kelechi.

And a solid three in midfield, we're being passed through the middle too easily. 

 

I still feel we lack a bit of muscle in midfield. But I have seen a lot of progress from last season despite recent results.

We are on the right track with the future looking bright. Despite what some on here think.