What to do about the defense?

[Pete from the USA]

Ian Wright believes he could still score against Leicester City defense

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/arsenal-ian-wright-leicester-city-2014593

 

The dark side of Puel's exciting attacking system was fully exposed at Bournemouth. If we don't figure out how to defend we're done for. How do we fix this?

 

Looking for suggestions other than "sack the manager." Lineup changes, strategy changes, new recruits, whatnot. 

[Finnegan]

Pick a back four, preferably one that doesn't include Fuchs, Morgan, Simpson or Amartey and stick with it. Not because I "hate" or disrespect any of those guys but just because they aren't our future. Clearly they are done, however much they may have contributed. 

 

Stop ****ing changing every couple of games because someone has a wonky game, defending is about awareness, communication, experience. We know Evans is good enough, why did we drop him after one wobbly performance? Stop moving Ricardo up to play on the wing every other game on a whim. 

 

Let them actually gel and get used to each other for christ sakes. Accept that there'll be mistakes in the process and just roll with the punches. 

 

And if it turns out that Ricardo and Chilwell can't be trusted together in a back four then let's get another centre half in there and play them as wing backs because to be honest, they look like our best wide players at the moment.

Edited 18 September 2018 by Finnegan

[Sampson]

Eh. I acrually think the opposite and that Fuchs and Simpson would actually add sure us up, if they were told to stat back, quite a bit though we'd lose what we have going forward.

 

The problem is we have 2 marauding full-backs, neither of whom can defend. Then 2 centre backs who aren't the quickest who are supposed to cover for them. We either need centre backs who are quicker and can cover better or full-backs who can actually defend or who aren't trying to play as wingers.

 

Ricardo especially has been an absolute liability so far defensively and is clearly a winger, not a full-back.

Edited 18 September 2018 by Sampson

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Eh. I acrually think the opposite and that Fuchs and Simpson would actually add sure us up, if they were told to stat back, quite a bit though we'd lose what we have going forward.

 

The problem is we have 2 marauding full-backs, neither of whom can defend. Then 2 centre backs who aren't the quickest who are supposed to cover for them. We either need centre backs who are quicker and can cover better or full-backs who can actually defend or who aren't trying to play as wingers.

 

I don't disagree that Fuchs and Simpson would probably improve us defensively right now but I think it'd be short term gain with no long term consideration. 

 

I think we're fairly safe from relegation, hopefully, and we need to take this moment in time to actually establish what comes AFTER Fuchs and Simpson. 

 

If the answer to that is Chilwell and Ricardo, then we need to work out how that's going to fit. 

[Hanan96]

The next game is Huddersfield home. Good chance to give Evans and Soyuncu time to gel with the team. 

For next few match 3 back is needed then once they are both gel with the team and match fit, we can switch back to 4231 to accommodate our winger. 

 

Since our fullback are both marauding, we need extra cover. So ndidis partner should drop back, play role as half back. Being dm in defense while central cb in attack.

 

Unfortunately, silva doesn't seems to suit this tactic.. 

[urban.spaceman]

Claude wants attacking full-backs, which is fine, but the problem with that is that it leaves the centre-backs exposed, and we have to rely on Wilf and Nampalys providing extra cover. We were caught out so many times on Saturday because Ricardo was half a mile up the pitch leaving Morgan alone to deal with Fraser.

 

The blame goes all round - Ricardo for not tracking back quick enough, the midfield for not covering that space, Wes for not being able to cope at the back, but mostly Claude, for creating this situation in the first place and not acting quick enough to fix it.

 

Against Wolves at home we certainly rode our luck with Evans being far too slow and regularly exposed; in the second half Claude brought on Amartey to plug that gap and allow Ricardo to push further up. 

 

On Saturday we didn't actually play that badly against Bournemouth, at least attacking wise, but the defence truly let us down. We were lucky that Maguire didn't get sent off too, but also lucky that Morgan was. I love the guy but in the system Claude wants to play I don't think Wes is fast enough to cope. He needs to retire to the bench.

 

This will be controversial but the big loss on Saturday could be a blessing in disguise. Remember how many goals we were shipping with Schlupp and De Laet in the team in 15/16? Claudio persisted with them as long as we were outscoring inferior teams; when Arsenal tore us apart he finally switched to Fuchs and Simpson. Sacrificing such a big loss so early in the season proved a point to the squad that the change had to be made.

 

I really hope with Morgan banned Claude will take the opportunity to either replace him with Soyuncu or Evans, or put both of them in a back 3 with Maguire.

 

This could have a hugely positive bearing on our season. I just hope Claude can make it work.

[murphy]

Buy four new defenders at a cost of around £70m and..

 

 

Oh, wait..

[murphy]

I don't see Puel changing his system so we need to be better drilled in our shape and at covering the full backs when we are attacking.  I had hoped with a pre season that we would be better than what we have seen so far.

[mancunianfox]

We just don't have enough defenders on the pitch. Chilwell and Pereira like to go forward which is fine but then we have Maguire doing it as well. I like Maguire and he should be the first defender on the team sheet but sometimes he is as much of a problem for us as a solution. I think we need a lot more discipline.

[brockmyster]

Dropping Morgan would be a good start.

 

Playing Ricardo at right back away from home and not having Albrighton as a bit of a shield was pure tactical naivety from Puel too on Saturday

[UniFox21]

Whilst everyone is ripping our defence apart, and quite rightly so, but we aren't giving Bournemouth the credit they're due for tactically destroying our defence.

 

I agree with what @urban.spaceman said, hopefully this will be a bit of a shock we need to get this altered and changed.

In future, I think Hamza would suit this role, if we remember how deep he sat in a few games last season, that's what we need this year. Let him just drop in between the 2 CBs, giving us 3 to shield the back and buy us more time to get back in shape.

We were actually exposed just as spurs were against Liverpool, left with 2 CBs covering the whole pitch. 

[Stadt]

You can play a high line as we did at Bournemouth and have two aggressive fullbacks like we did at Bournemouth if you have mobile centrebacks that are comfortable covering ground and stepping out. 

 

Morgan and Maguire are probably the slowest centreback pairing in the league, it’s inexcusable to be so naive. 

 

Either play the £22m new singing that can play in a high line, is quick and presumably the reason we signed him;

 

or, don’t play such a high line, yeah we can’t press as high but we’re better suited to a mid block anyway.

 

 

[FoxNotFox]

*shudder* I even contemplated the return of Simpson, with Ricardo in front of him.

 

But, yes, we are defensively porous... and that's a problem brought about by Puel's high press, attacking style. Well and good when we're on the front foot but we don't half leave ourselves exposed when we lose possession. And if our central defenders (neither fleet of foot) venture forward then we might as well just gift the opponents a goal.

[TheMightySystem]

7 minutes ago, Hanan96 said:

The next game is Huddersfield home. Good chance to give Evans and Soyuncu time to gel with the team. 

For next few match 3 back is needed then once they are both gel with the team and match fit, we can switch back to 4231 to accommodate our winger. 

 

Since our fullback are both marauding, we need extra cover. So ndidis partner should drop back, play role as half back. Being dm in defense while central cb in attack.

 

Unfortunately, silva doesn't seems to suit this tactic.. 

Mentioned it in the Hudderfield pre match thread in more detail but Choudhury would be perfect for that role. Its disapointing that Puel seems to have forgotten about him, if he can't even make the bench after how he performed last season when called upon does he have a future here? Puel would rather have 3 defenders on the bench for god sake. I thought Puel would be eager to bring him through so he has another young player he has developed. I thought when he joined he would be giving the U23s chances and while he has brought through youth he has only done it with low risk players, Chilwell and Gray, who most people expect to make it and have previously shown ability. For me to judge Puel as a manager that develops young tallent he needs to start bringing through U23 players where possible, why doesn't he try bringing through some of the U23 Cbs like Knight, Johnson or Hughes (I know he is injured at the moment) instead of bringing in 2 foreign young players. I'm glad we got them but would have been even happier if a manager spent the time trying to develop what we already have. Say we brought through Johnson and Knight instead of buying Benkovic and Soyuncu, then we can use that £30 million (not sure if thats how much we paid for both) to buy another winger or striker which we really need.

 

2 minutes ago, brockmyster said:

Dropping Morgan would be a good start.

 

Playing Ricardo at right back away from home and not having Albrighton as a bit of a shield was pure tactical naivety from Puel too on Saturday

To be fair to Puel Ghezzal did have a great defensive work rate in his previous games. The fact is if we want to play the football Puel wants we will have to overload the opposition box and that means having both wingers and fullbacks high up the pitch, the issue was that Pereria failed to get back in time to help out, the Cbs don't have a pace to get across to cover, the midfield went awol when they should have been sitting just infront of the defence and Bournemouth had a really quick attack. For all the critisism Chilwell gets (unfairly imo) he makes sure to get back in position if he is caught up the pitch and they counter, how many goals have we conceeded this year from a Chilwell mistake? I can't think of one clear error (Although there have been a few errors that could have led to goals not as many as Pereria though). Compare that to when we have Pereria at Rb and he is constantly losing his man or over committing and getting beaten with some skill. I think he will come good though, he just needs to adapt to the league and how much quicker in thought and skill the attackers are.

[Lovejoy]

I actually think there are a couple of obvious tweaks that would make the world of difference.

 

Firstly, playing two centre backs as slow as Maguire and Morgan so high up the pitch is suicidal, particularly against pace like on Saturday. The first thing to address this is to bring in a more mobile centre back to partner one of these lads, both Evans and Soyuncu need trying, despite Evans shaky game against Wolves. I can't see that Harry Mag would be dropped, so out goes Morgan, suspended or not. You could argue away from home that sitting 5-10 yards deeper wouldn't be the end of the world, either.

 

Secondly, I think the fullbacks need reigning in a touch, something that doesn't involves ditching either Ricardo or Chilwell for, but merely effort and practice on the training ground. Having seen plenty of Ricardo for both Nice and Porto, he's just carried on like he always has. Generally I think if one goes, the other should sit, so the centre backs aren't left exposed. Away from home, they should also be a bit more wary in general, though with both Ndidi and Mendy on the pitch, at least one should be able to go.

 

These don't involves sacking the coach, don't involve dropping Chilwell and Ricardo, but a bit of caution and training ground work. That being said, I do fear Puel's persistence with Morgan may well cost him his job eventually. Not an attack on Wes, but as I mentioned, it's foolish to play those two with their lack of pace so high up the pitch.

[Shane]

If we play 3 at the back, I’d like to see Josh Knight in contention as 4th or 5th choice. 

[Silebyfox_89]

time to go 3 at the back, plenty of options available, Maguire, Evans, Morgan, Soyouncu, amartey, Fuchs can play there. plus benkovic to come in at the end of the season plus Knight/Johnson/Hughes from the u23's. this will allow for chilwell + Ricardo to play full back and not have to track back as often and cover the space. 

this will allow 1 less DM to cover the back line allowing another attacking player i.e nacho/Silva to play

[CloudFox]

50 minutes ago, Lovejoy said:

I actually think there are a couple of obvious tweaks that would make the world of difference.

 

Firstly, playing two centre backs as slow as Maguire and Morgan so high up the pitch is suicidal, particularly against pace like on Saturday. The first thing to address this is to bring in a more mobile centre back to partner one of these lads, both Evans and Soyuncu need trying, despite Evans shaky game against Wolves. I can't see that Harry Mag would be dropped, so out goes Morgan, suspended or not. You could argue away from home that sitting 5-10 yards deeper wouldn't be the end of the world, either.

 

Secondly, I think the fullbacks need reigning in a touch, something that doesn't involves ditching either Ricardo or Chilwell for, but merely effort and practice on the training ground. Having seen plenty of Ricardo for both Nice and Porto, he's just carried on like he always has. Generally I think if one goes, the other should sit, so the centre backs aren't left exposed. Away from home, they should also be a bit more wary in general, though with both Ndidi and Mendy on the pitch, at least one should be able to go.

 

These don't involves sacking the coach, don't involve dropping Chilwell and Ricardo, but a bit of caution and training ground work. That being said, I do fear Puel's persistence with Morgan may well cost him his job eventually. Not an attack on Wes, but as I mentioned, it's foolish to play those two with their lack of pace so high up the pitch.

Huh. Honestly, I was swinging well into us having to go three at the back, but you're completely right here. It's just reigning in the full backs a little bit, and them taking it in turns to break forward.

 

That's simple to coach, surely. Good post.

[hackneyfox]

13 minutes ago, Silebyfox_89 said:

time to go 3 at the back, plenty of options available, Maguire, Evans, Morgan, Soyouncu, amartey, Fuchs can play there. plus benkovic to come in at the end of the season plus Knight/Johnson/Hughes from the u23's. this will allow for chilwell + Ricardo to play full back and not have to track back as often and cover the space. 

Fuchs can no longer play at LB let alone in a position he's never looked that comfortable in.

[yorkie1999]

No point in trying to play a high line with 2 slow centre backs, one of which only having one foot.

Edited 18 September 2018 by yorkie1999

[l444ry]

Have said it before and will say it again. Defending is not just the back four. All eleven players become defenders as soon as we lose the ball. Under Claudio it was simple and everyone could see the plan. Force the ball wide and if the opposition do get crosses in then it will be to our strength of Huth and Morgan. Can anyone see what the defensive strategy is today other than press a bit higher up the pitch? If that fails, what next?  Under Puel I genuinely can't see much attention is being paid to anything other than keep the ball as a means to an end.

Edited 18 September 2018 by l444ry

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Lovejoy said:

I actually think there are a couple of obvious tweaks that would make the world of difference.

 

Firstly, playing two centre backs as slow as Maguire and Morgan so high up the pitch is suicidal, particularly against pace like on Saturday. The first thing to address this is to bring in a more mobile centre back to partner one of these lads, both Evans and Soyuncu need trying, despite Evans shaky game against Wolves. I can't see that Harry Mag would be dropped, so out goes Morgan, suspended or not. You could argue away from home that sitting 5-10 yards deeper wouldn't be the end of the world, either.

 

Secondly, I think the fullbacks need reigning in a touch, something that doesn't involves ditching either Ricardo or Chilwell for, but merely effort and practice on the training ground. Having seen plenty of Ricardo for both Nice and Porto, he's just carried on like he always has. Generally I think if one goes, the other should sit, so the centre backs aren't left exposed. Away from home, they should also be a bit more wary in general, though with both Ndidi and Mendy on the pitch, at least one should be able to go.

 

These don't involves sacking the coach, don't involve dropping Chilwell and Ricardo, but a bit of caution and training ground work. That being said, I do fear Puel's persistence with Morgan may well cost him his job eventually. Not an attack on Wes, but as I mentioned, it's foolish to play those two with their lack of pace so high up the pitch.

Having a strict policy of one full back attacking at a time and the remaining defenders shifting left or right into a back 3 with one of Wilf or Nampalys (or Hamza) providing further cover could work. 

 

As has been mentioned though we need to remember the defensive instincts that really won us the league. We need to tighten up big time. 

[fuchsntf]

3 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

Whilst everyone is ripping our defence apart, and quite rightly so, but we aren't giving Bournemouth the credit they're due for tactically destroying our defence.

 

I agree with what @urban.spaceman said, hopefully this will be a bit of a shock we need to get this altered and changed.

In future, I think Hamza would suit this role, if we remember how deep he sat in a few games last season, that's what we need this year. Let him just drop in between the 2 CBs, giving us 3 to shield the back and buy us more time to get back in shape.

We were actually exposed just as spurs were against Liverpool, left with 2 CBs covering the whole pitch. 

In the end,no matter how fans,see it this way or that way!!!

We have to sit it out,and wait to see how Puels decides to approach,the first few games.

His he going to push Morgan,through the season,or does he have ideas of change,rotation and support roles....

I won't try and make the calls,he has his ideas,he's been given carte Blanche,so long as results balance out...

Let's see who can take up their chances & places,and which ones will fall out of favour.....

Edited 18 September 2018 by fuchsntf

[Ted Maul]

I know this is a radical & original idea, but I think a 3-4-1-2 or 3-4-3 would really suit our squad.

[Mark 'expert' Lawrenson]

3 centre backs and 2 wing backs.