What to do about the defense?

[Hanan96]

3 hours ago, TheMightySystem said:

Mentioned it in the Hudderfield pre match thread in more detail but Choudhury would be perfect for that role. Its disapointing that Puel seems to have forgotten about him, if he can't even make the bench after how he performed last season when called upon does he have a future here? Puel would rather have 3 defenders on the bench for god sake. I thought Puel would be eager to bring him through so he has another young player he has developed. I thought when he joined he would be giving the U23s chances and while he has brought through youth he has only done it with low risk players, Chilwell and Gray, who most people expect to make it and have previously shown ability. For me to judge Puel as a manager that develops young tallent he needs to start bringing through U23 players where possible, why doesn't he try bringing through some of the U23 Cbs like Knight, Johnson or Hughes (I know he is injured at the moment) instead of bringing in 2 foreign young players. I'm glad we got them but would have been even happier if a manager spent the time trying to develop what we already have. Say we brought through Johnson and Knight instead of buying Benkovic and Soyuncu, then we can use that £30 million (not sure if thats how much we paid for both) to buy another winger or striker which we really need.

 

To be fair to Puel Ghezzal did have a great defensive work rate in his previous games. The fact is if we want to play the football Puel wants we will have to overload the opposition box and that means having both wingers and fullbacks high up the pitch, the issue was that Pereria failed to get back in time to help out, the Cbs don't have a pace to get across to cover, the midfield went awol when they should have been sitting just infront of the defence and Bournemouth had a really quick attack. For all the critisism Chilwell gets (unfairly imo) he makes sure to get back in position if he is caught up the pitch and they counter, how many goals have we conceeded this year from a Chilwell mistake? I can't think of one clear error (Although there have been a few errors that could have led to goals not as many as Pereria though). Compare that to when we have Pereria at Rb and he is constantly losing his man or over committing and getting beaten with some skill. I think he will come good though, he just needs to adapt to the league and how much quicker in thought and skill the attackers are.

With chilwell and gray still developing, and many new faces to our team, it seems too soon for choudhury to step up into this team which not bend well yet. He's still 20, I would rather let the team to get gel each other for a month or two before fielding another new faces, moreover, youngster. 

[STUHILL]

Get our best players out there in a formation and system that brings out their strengths whilst also nullifying their weaknesses.

 

Chilwell and Periera - Great in attack, poor defensively. Overwhelmingly suited to being Wingbacks

Maguire - Slow as fook, but adequately covered and quality in a back 3 where he can roam forward with the ball

Evans - Also slow as fook, but put central in a 3, and adequately covered and able to command the line with his experience

Vardy - Too isolated and easily dealt with in this formation/style, needs an additional striker alongside him

Soyuncu - Signed with promises of first team football. Big reputation of a talented ball playing CB. Ideal for a back 3

 

That's 7 players including Iheanacho, that I feel in theory, would hugely benefit from a switch in formation. It gives us so much more balance and allows the players we have to play to their key strengths. Puel can keep his possession based football and his flying wing backs, but also make us more solid in defence and add another striker to help an increasingly isolated Vardy. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Three centre backs looks the obvious alternative and given summer recruitment I thought that was the plan.

 

If not then Chilwell and especially Ricardo will just need to reign it in a bit, you can't have a situation where Bournemouth are attacking on the half way line and our right back is slowly jogging out of the oppositions penalty box. (Effort is also a big part of it, you wouldn't have seen Kyle Walker or Trent Alexander Arnold 50 yards behind Fraser as he put the ball in on Saturday)

 

The other option is a more standard 442 or 4411 with a winger like Albrighton helping out defensively.

 

One problem at the minute is neither Ghezzal or Gray seem interested in defending so the wide areas in our half are going to be deserted on numerous occasions for long periods if we carry on the same way.

Edited 18 September 2018 by MattP

[RumbleFox]

5 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Pick a back four, preferably one that doesn't include Fuchs, Morgan, Simpson or Amartey and stick with it. Not because I "hate" or disrespect any of those guys but just because they aren't our future. Clearly they are done, however much they may have contributed. 

 

Stop ****ing changing every couple of games because someone has a wonky game, defending is about awareness, communication, experience. We know Evans is good enough, why did we drop him after one wobbly performance? Stop moving Ricardo up to play on the wing every other game on a whim. 

 

Let them actually gel and get used to each other for christ sakes. Accept that there'll be mistakes in the process and just roll with the punches. 

 

And if it turns out that Ricardo and Chilwell can't be trusted together in a back four then let's get another centre half in there and play them as wing backs because to be honest, they look like our best wide players at the moment.

Yeah, this is about it.  I think when it comes to a back four consistency is key.  I am a "Puel in" person but he does need to sort out the defence.  I agree with the above.  I think we need to pick a back four and stick with it and let it grow.  With Morgan suspended maybe this is the time to just go for it.  It would seem our realistic first choices right now would be:

 

Ricardo  Evans  Maguire  Chilwell

 

or

 

Ricardo  Soyuncu  Maguire  Chilwell

 

Puel needs to pick one of these and stick with it for 5 or 6 games.  With the system we play (attacking fullbacks) I think we need two more defensive midfielders (Mendy & Ndidi).  For me the key is drilling in to the players what has to happen when either Ricardo or Chilwell attack.  One/both of these need to fall back into the back four.  I am not clever enough to say exactly how that would look but Puel needs to decide and stick with it and make sure the players are all on the same page.

 

The negatives are we would have an inexperienced back four and it may take time.  The positives are that they are young and the potential is huge.

 

If we play this system we really need the fullbacks and the front three to create chances/goals.

 

So, in summary..... fvck knows.  X

 

 

[Finnegan]

You can't have both of your defensive midfielders join the defensive line with wing backs bombing forward. 

 

But if play is on the left and Chilwell is forward, Ricardo needs to be deeper covering and visa versa so that your back four becomes a three. Then you've got one of your two centre mids, likely Ndidi, sat covering the back line. 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

5 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Pick a back four, preferably one that doesn't include Fuchs, Morgan, Simpson or Amartey and stick with it. Not because I "hate" or disrespect any of those guys but just because they aren't our future. Clearly they are done, however much they may have contributed. 

 

Stop ****ing changing every couple of games because someone has a wonky game, defending is about awareness, communication, experience. We know Evans is good enough, why did we drop him after one wobbly performance? Stop moving Ricardo up to play on the wing every other game on a whim. 

 

Let them actually gel and get used to each other for christ sakes. Accept that there'll be mistakes in the process and just roll with the punches. 

 

And if it turns out that Ricardo and Chilwell can't be trusted together in a back four then let's get another centre half in there and play them as wing backs because to be honest, they look like our best wide players at the moment.

I tend to agree with most of your post.

[l444ry]

37 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

You can't have both of your defensive midfielders join the defensive line with wing backs bombing forward. 

 

But if play is on the left and Chilwell is forward, Ricardo needs to be deeper covering and visa versa so that your back four becomes a three. Then you've got one of your two centre mids, likely Ndidi, sat covering the back line. 

Agree with that principle Finnegan. Problem is you're describing  the traditional 4-4-2 defensive back four shape. In Puel's 4-2-3-1 he's looking to get 6 players attacking and press high. Heaven knows how he's gonna resolve it with this group of players. 

[jayfox26]

We either go to 3 centre backs and use ricardo and chilwell as wing backs or Wilf and Mendy need to start covering the full backs if they bomb forward. If Puel is going to stick with 4-2-3-1 then in jan we will need another cdm, someone who is quick, strong and mobile and we need to move Iborra on as he won't suit 4-2-3-1 at all. Silva can be back up for Maddison and then get in another cdm to fight for a place with wilf and mendy. My worry about sticking with 2 at centre backs is our lack of pace. Maguire doesn't get caught out as much for England as they play 3cbs and have the pace of stones and walker. But if hes in a 2 with either Morgan or evans then that leaves us exposed. 

[mozartfox]

6 hours ago, murphy said:

Buy four new defenders at a cost of around £70m and..

 

 

Oh, wait..

Perfect summary.  

[Sunbury Fox]

9 minutes ago, jayfox26 said:

We either go to 3 centre backs and use ricardo and chilwell as wing backs or Wilf and Mendy need to start covering the full backs if they bomb forward. If Puel is going to stick with 4-2-3-1 then in jan we will need another cdm, someone who is quick, strong and mobile and we need to move Iborra on as he won't suit 4-2-3-1 at all. Silva can be back up for Maddison and then get in another cdm to fight for a place with wilf and mendy. My worry about sticking with 2 at centre backs is our lack of pace. Maguire doesn't get caught out as much for England as they play 3cbs and have the pace of stones and walker. But if hes in a 2 with either Morgan or evans then that leaves us exposed. 

 That's why we have to play Soyuncu.

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, jayfox26 said:

We either go to 3 centre backs and use ricardo and chilwell as wing backs or Wilf and Mendy need to start covering the full backs if they bomb forward.

You can't ask your two defensive midfielders to drop into full back.

 

1. They aren't going to be much good in those positions. 

 

2. It leaves you with no centre midfield.

[Farrington fox]

Just can’t see how you can get away with 2 centre backs when they’re slow and cumbersome. 

We don’t know what Soyunco’s like, but he can’t be any slower! Give him a go, in a back 3 if needs be. 

We can’t go on shipping goals like this. 

[funkyrobot]

If anyone watched Southgate’s England over their last two games then they’ll be aware of the flaws with the 3 at the back set up. Spain in particular focused on bypassing our wingbacks and it was very effective. Maybe we would be better considering a more fluid 433. Most of the better sides use that now and it would give us width options at fullback and upfront as well as allowing a central enforcer in midfield to help the 2 centre backs. The only issue might be how to fit Maddison into the system. 

[l444ry]

1 minute ago, funkyrobot said:

If anyone watched Southgate’s England over their last two games then they’ll be aware of the flaws with the 3 at the back set up. Spain in particular focused on bypassing our wingbacks and it was very effective. Maybe we would be better considering a more fluid 433. Most of the better sides use that now and it would give us width options at fullback and upfront as well as allowing a central enforcer in midfield to help the 2 centre backs. The only issue might be how to fit Maddison into the system. 

Maddison was a box to box midfielder at Norwich I believe. It's Puel who's trying to convert him into a No. 10.  

[funkyrobot]

1 minute ago, l444ry said:

Maddison was a box to box midfielder at Norwich I believe. It's Puel who's trying to convert him into a No. 10.  

Ok then Maddison could fit in to one of the midfielder role on one of the sides of the central midfield pivot? Up front Vardy in the middle with Iheanacho one side (Shinji as back up) and one of Ghezzal, Gray or Albrighton on the other. 

[l444ry]

2 minutes ago, funkyrobot said:

Ok then Maddison could fit in to one of the midfielder role on one of the sides of the central midfield pivot? Up front Vardy in the middle with Iheanacho one side (Shinji as back up) and one of Ghezzal, Gray or Albrighton on the other. 

I'd prefer 4-3-3 over 4-2-3-1 but our weakness might be the lack of proper front three, all natural in their positions and all capable of scoring a decent amount of goals.

[Shane]

What about 3-5-2:

 

Schmeichel

Soyuncu, Evans, Maguire

Pereira, Mendy, Choudhury, Ndidi, Chilwell

Vardy, Maddison

 

Yes it’s pretty defensive but the best way to improve a defence is to protect them. Choudhury will be the deepest of the midfield 3, sweeping and covering our attacking full backs or dropping back into defence if Maguire bombs forward. 

 

With Choudhury as the sweeper it allows Mendy and Ndidi to push forward and help with a high press. I think both of them are better with freedom to roam, whereas in the 4-2-3-1 they are shackled to a very stationary position. 

 

With Mendy and Ndidi pressing high, Pereira and Chilwell bombing forward I think Vardy and Maddison would have plenty of chances to score.

 

Ghezzal, Gray & Albrighton on the bench to switch to a 3-4-3 or 5-4-1 like Conte’s Chelsea. 

[Dan]

22 hours ago, Stadt said:

You can play a high line as we did at Bournemouth and have two aggressive fullbacks like we did at Bournemouth if you have mobile centrebacks that are comfortable covering ground and stepping out. 

 

Morgan and Maguire are probably the slowest centreback pairing in the league, it’s inexcusable to be so naive. 

 

Either play the £22m new singing that can play in a high line, is quick and presumably the reason we signed him;

 

or, don’t play such a high line, yeah we can’t press as high but we’re better suited to a mid block anyway.

 

 

This. It's unbelievably naïve from Puel and he's been guilty of this a few times. If there's one thing that'll land him the boot here it's a continuation of this.

[FoxFossil]

22 hours ago, FoxNotFox said:

*shudder* I even contemplated the return of Simpson, with Ricardo in front of him.

 

But, yes, we are defensively porous... and that's a problem brought about by Puel's high press, attacking style. Well and good when we're on the front foot but we don't half leave ourselves exposed when we lose possession. And if our central defenders (neither fleet of foot) venture forward then we might as well just gift the opponents a goal.

Me too but we need to compile a string of clean sheets. This was the bedrock of our Champion winning season. Vardy, Nacho and Sinji will sneak us goals, we just need to get back to basic defending.

[STUHILL]

50 minutes ago, Shane said:

What about 3-5-2:

 

Schmeichel

Soyuncu, Evans, Maguire

Pereira, Mendy, Choudhury, Ndidi, Chilwell

Vardy, Maddison

 

Yes it’s pretty defensive but the best way to improve a defence is to protect them. Choudhury will be the deepest of the midfield 3, sweeping and covering our attacking full backs or dropping back into defence if Maguire bombs forward. 

 

With Choudhury as the sweeper it allows Mendy and Ndidi to push forward and help with a high press. I think both of them are better with freedom to roam, whereas in the 4-2-3-1 they are shackled to a very stationary position. 

 

With Mendy and Ndidi pressing high, Pereira and Chilwell bombing forward I think Vardy and Maddison would have plenty of chances to score.

 

Ghezzal, Gray & Albrighton on the bench to switch to a 3-4-3 or 5-4-1 like Conte’s Chelsea. 

Lacks creativity IMO. You have 3 CM's who struggle to control the pace of the game and pull the strings in midfield. 

I also think it doesn't address how easily Vardy can be dealt with when in the box on his own.

 

I'd have Iheanacho in alongside Vardy and Maddison playing behind them. I'd also consider starting Iborra or Silva over Mendy, but I'd first give Mendy a chance to impress in the new system and see how it gelled together and whether we could control the midfield without having a ball playing CM.

[Guest]

Do you want boring park the bus defensive football like Newcastle or fun attacking, goal leaking football?

 

Those of you who expect us to have clean sheets and score goals are not really living in the real world.

 

Personally I can accept shipping a few goals as long as we play fun attacking football and score a few too.

[deep blue]

21 hours ago, Mark 'expert' Lawrenson said:

3 centre backs and 2 wing backs.

Exactly.

[Lambert09]

I know this is worthy of the foxestalk death penalty, but 3-5-2 is really the way to go isnt it?  I know Puel has never played the system but surely football managers are supposed to be adaptable and it seems we have the perfect players to make this work. 

 

Maguire, Soyuncu, evans are ball playing centre halves that would thrive with the extra defender as all 3 are prone to defensive brain farts.  Whilst Wes lacks the pace to keep up, as a 3 any of the four would fit well IMO. As a 2 we are always going to ship goals. 

 

Chillwell and Ricardo both have more attacking qualities then defensive, but neither are good enough to play a flat wing role.  (Albrighton has proven he can also play excellently in this role)

 

Mendy, Ndidi and Ibora- all of these are most comfortable in a holding role rather than box to box and would look good tidying things up in front of the back 3. 

 

Maddison is perfect to sit just in front, Ghezal would also look goord and I actually think Demari would be a handful to deputise in this position. 

 

Iheanacho gets to play! This is huge for me as I think we are missing out on something with this guy, give him a run of games and goals will flow.  

 

In tough fixtures or away games, we can use the workhorse that is Shinji.

 

The potential of this line up really is mouth watering, I know we need to stop going on about it but when you watch a game like Bournemouth its hard to not think about how we've dropped points AGAIN in a winnable game. One that you need to be smart about and not treat like the lesser teams in the league, they are simply too good to paint with the same brush and its these teams I think we seem to struggle against. 

 

Rant over, ill await my hanging. 

 

                             Kasper

            Soyuncu  Maguire   Evans  

Ricardo                                           Chillwell

                 Mendy               Ndidi

                           Maddison

                  Iheanacho

                                     Vardy

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 September 2018 by Lambert09

[mozartfox]

Well the omens are with us as the only clean sheet this season was when Wes was not playing.  But we really do need pace at CB.  Evans is not the answer to replace Wes.   Some younger and quicker legs desperately needed and with have them - Soyuncu/DJ/Armatey/Knight/Benkovic.

Edited 19 September 2018 by mozartfox
why not

[drofmor55]

If you play a back four with two full backs that are encouraged to go forward then you need a defensive midfielder who can ease back into the centre back positions thereby creating a back three when the full backs have gone forward..Tottenham have been doing this for about 3 seasons with Eric Dier. ...our problem is we havent a player who can fill this role (with the possible exception of Amartey)... good as  Ndidi/Mendy/Choudury are in a DM role they  cannot do this ,,but even with this system you still need the other centre backs to have a reasonable amount of mobility to save them being exposed which sadly Wes seems to have lost .