Southampton Home post match, 1-2 loss.

[hackenbacker]

open letter?

[5waller5]

9 minutes ago, vanity said:

You need to add Maguire, Barnes, and Hamza to the list, they have all significantly improved under Claude. Chilwell has really improved from the inconsistent mess he was and he clearly credits Claude, he was just in the paper defending him, and after the Man City win he was on the pitch after pointing at Claude for the fans to clap and appreciate him. Ndidi has absolutely improved on the ball, but he was so bad and indecisive on it to start that it can be hard to see at times. It is there though, he is clearly more decisive and confident.

 

Think of it another way -- if we include the older players, most everyone on the team has improved MASSIVELY on the ball. Go pull up some of our matches from the 2016-2017 season on footbalia.net, watch when we play good sides how we cannot maintain possession well enough to advance out of our own half, our ONLY solution was hoof ball. There is a Man U match I am remembering but it isn't up there, JFC the comments on the game thread from our first match vs Man U after our title winning season, we were so helpless against their press it made half of us turn the game off early.

 

But that is no longer the case. When players like Morgan, Fuchs, and Simpson play, they aren't Ricardo or Chilwell on the ball, but they are massively improved. We can play the ball out of our side of the field with relative proficiency. Teams do not dominate us with the press when we play hard, but they were able to do so easily throughout the 2016-2017 season. Claude improves players. He always has.

 

I think you are right to point to some of the failures. But Diabate was always a project, clearly, he only got gametime because we were so hapless on the ball for a spell with the players we had available. Puel has had Ghezzal and Maddison for half a season, I think those warrant more patience. Gray has definitely not improved as far as I can see, that is a huge developmental failure from Claude, as Gray has precisely the skills we need out wide to break down well-defended boxes, but his decision-making while on the ball is poor and I question his effort, he is very much a confidence player and goes away for games like Mahrez did, but without the ability to still have that bit of magic to score for us. Iheanacho is another developmental failure. If anything they both appear to have regressed, though Iheanacho's original level is difficult to ascertain, you watch his Man City highlights he is dumping goals in from point blank range, not too much special there.

 

Frankly, I still do not understand what it is that Iheanacho does well other than complain when dispossessed.

 

I also think tactically Claude is great at making adjustments, but far too slow to make them. I think we are handicapped playing his pet 4231 with Vardy up top, Vardy doesn't come back to the ball to involve teammates enough (though he has noticeably improved in that department in recent games, it went lacking today). Our club is filled with poor finishers who miss point blank chances most every game. FFS last game was ridiculous all the point blank chances we missed, and we fluffed a number of excellent opportunities today as well.

 

We need to add better finishers to the side (we may have done so today with Barnes, but we could do with another wing who can actually score goals). We need a big striker strong in his hold up play who can play our wings and AMs into dangerous parts of the pitch. Vardy was helpless today in the 2H bc the game demanded a different type of striker but we don't have one good at the style of play we have. Sending in crosses to an isolated Vardy is a terrible strategy, IDK wtf we are doing with that, it is a waste of possession and simply doesn't work, we need to mix it up and play wings who can beat their man around the edge or cut inside, draw attention from defenders, and look for Vards or Mads making runs. My point with all this is this team is not a finished product. We start one of the youngest sides in the league, and development like this takes time. It can absolutely take years for players to begin reacting instinctively rather than thinking about what they are doing and being more slow with it. We are adding good pieces, but we have to find a striker alternative or this will never take off. Vardy can remain the starter in the 433 against elite sides, but playing him in the 4231 simply doesn't work, when he doesn't work to come back to get involved we are at a massive disadvantage. 

 

Alternatively, we can fire Claude. Then what? We are losing recently because our players are making dumb mistakes defending. Two absolutely needless PKs the last two games have f'd us. Slop, lazy defending today gifted a second goal before the half, watching our defenders trot back as though Long wasn't a threat when he had gotten the header and was one-on-one with Mendy was insane, just watch the highlight. That is the sort of failure of effort we are dealing with. That is the problem we need to see fixed. If that means playing a young bloody side while sitting anyone who won the title, so be it. We need to wake our players the fuch up and get them uncomfortable, they are far too casual most every game that isn't against the top 6. If we hire a new manager, he will either continue with what we are doing, or he will go back to counterattacking exclusively and ensure we don't reach Europe ever again. We need to be patient and let this play out, chopping managers whenever the team starts playing poorly doesn't help us. Better to bench the veterans and let the younger boys play more if we fall out of it for Europe, get all the development they can and position us for a top-6 run next season when we have a striker actually suited for this system, and the young boys have had the chance to play some.

Interesting and intelligent response ..... There's a lot of points so forgive the hopping around in my reply!

 

I sometimes forget that Maguire is a young player! I do think his development was already well under way before Puel though and will happen despite him (international coaching etc)

As for Barnes - he looks a better player having been out on loan - not sure we can credit Puel for that!?

Hamza - Again i like the look of him - how much better he is than before Puel is impossible to tell - it's only really possible when a player signs for us from elsewhere that we can see the difference. But he may well have improved with CP's influence.

 

I do hear players say good things about CP as a coach -  but then if you're a young player and he's responsible for giving you your big break in the team that's inevitable?

 

In terms of tactics ..... I find us completely devoid of any to be honest .... We seem to throw balls in to an empty box, and like you say 8-9 players then just watch expecting some sort of miracle to occur in the box. Vardy must be very frustrated with the service he gets as we have completely abandoned any type of quick counter attack instead of selecting it a few times per game as a different option.

 

I do agree that we are a young side and looking to develop - but my worry is that we will not develop into an exciting attacking team, we'll develop into a negative, dull, boring team that gets average results and lives off the points that a tight defence gets them. It bores me rigid, and will quickly lose fans and attendances will drop. 

 

I don't think sacking CP is as binary a choice as some are suggesting - we can still try to develop our possession style, but add more attacking intent and move the ball quicker. I am completely with you on the movement point - it's pointless having the ball if nobody is moving ahead of you - it will never result in creation of chances, and is what we are enduring game after game.

 

I'm also with you - if we drop balls in to an empty box then please let's have a target man striker ..... What i don't understand is why Claude has selected that style of play without one ..... It's an obvious and crucial part of the system that he seems to employ and can't work without that element.

 

 

[inckley fox]

35 minutes ago, woddyuk said:

Been a long time since I've heard "anyone" out chants. 

Can't remember any for 

Sousa, Sven, Raneri,(obviously) Shakespeare, Pearson,not even Holloway. Even when it's dross we tend to stand by them. Probably have to go back to Peter Taylor to fin d sort of dissatisfaction we have building now. 

I remember rumblings under Sousa, Sven, Holloway and Pearson, and far worse under Megson, Levein and Bassett.

 

The strength of feeling against Puel is largely because the football is so negative and dull, and I also understand that sometimes a league position doesn't tell the full story (remember we were 4th in March 2001 and a perfectly respectable 13th at the end of the season, and yet few would argue that Taylor should have been fired by that point). We've not got to that stage yet, though I think the risk of a collapse in form is very high and if that happens the issue may be forced.

[OhYesNdidi]

4 minutes ago, Itsthejoeker said:

 

Bit of perspective there really...

 

dont forget O’Neil 

Plenty of anger towards shakey and raneiri with ‘you don’t know what you’re doing chants’ and boo’s after the game etc. 

[reynard]

5 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Im back @Ceirboy, thought you'd like to know

 

Regarding this particular loss: that foup from Mendy for the penalty was ridiculous. And Mendy's assist for the second goal too. Both outrageous ways to concede. No way in hell that can be pinned on the manager and i dont think anyone complains about him for that anyway to be fair

 

As far as this match goes, it did not start out following the trend of sideways passing forever that people moan about. We actually had several chances to break and get in good forward positions, but it seemed every single player except Hamza was making terrible passes that didnt reach their man. That is also nothing to do with the manager..they were just awful. Better passes when there were simple opportunities and we would have had scoring chances

 

Scoring against 10 men who are all camped inside the box is not easy. We managed it in the end but unfortunately only once

 

In what way exactly was the manager to blame for this one? Loads of people moaning about him wanted him to play that exact team! After the fact they complain about 3 defensive centre mids

 

I dont even see that game as about the manager in particular. Shocking first half performances from almost the whole team lost that game

 

Southampton werent camped in their own half either. We could have done a lot better but our young team seemed to lose their composure for the whole first half

So exactly at what point does a manager have to take some responsibility for perfomances such as the one witnessed today? I could take a one-off performance like this against the less adventurous teams but the truth is today is the norm, the standard and it really isn't very good.

Our young team lost their composure against Southampton whilst our old team lost their composure against Newport.

[ROB-THE-BLUE]

Something to cheer people up. 

[Parafox]

A bit concerned by his post match interview on RL. When asked if he was concerned about his position as manager, he replied "Not my concerrrnn" "ees not mah concerrrrn"

 

That ees a concerrrn to me. I was prepared to see how his "transformation" panned out, but really... I'm not a 'sack the manager' kind of guy, but CP is testing my patience.  

 

Only the wins against Chelsea, Man C and Everton have kept him where he is. His style of play is not negative but nor is it attacking . That said, he's playing players that have a neutral mentality, in that they receive the ball but go sideways rather than take it on and run at the opposition with the exception of maybe Maguire, Chilwell, Choudry (defenders/defensive midfielder) Ricardo and Maddison.

 

All that said, we're 8th. look at Southampton this season after Puel was sacked. Where would you rather be?

[BKLFox]

1 hour ago, Ric Flair said:

Puel seems allergic to signing any creative midfielders though. Maddison aside, he's not overseen a single striker or anyone with an iota of attacking threat. Maddison is suffering a very barren spell as well, his end product is appalling. But his set pieces are the biggest disappointment, he's learnt the art of the floated corner made famous over the years by Paul Gallagher and most recently Matty James. If he doesnt get another forward and/or at least a creative player in by the end of January then I dont see him keeping any fans on his side by the end of the season. Most fans only get to watch us when we play at home and what we are witnessing is borderline illegal, its revolting. How anyone can defend him and the football is a better man than me.

 

Vichai had a dream and it wasnt this.

Agree we need creative reinforcements probably don’t agree it has to be in January or else and I say that just because of cost and availability. 

There’s been a few saying our seasons over so with that in mind is there any point spending just to get a C lister for top dollar when we could wait till summer and get that A list signing we actually want/need and in the meantime get someone like Dewsbury-Hall training with the 1st team.

 

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

1 minute ago, reynard said:

So exactly at what point does a manager have to take some responsibility for perfomances such as the one witnessed today? I could take a one-off performance like this against the less adventurous teams but the truth is today is the norm, the standard and it really isn't very good.

Our young team lost their composure against Southampton whilst our old team lost their composure against Newport.

Puel is worthy of criticism, but my issue is the criticism he is getting is ridiculously unbalanced

 

Yes, perhaps we can put at his door to a degree lack of effective passing through our midfield against teams that sit back. Using all these DMs could be a mistake. But then again are we just poor in that area as a squad...? Im not sure yet but inclined towards the latter and thats why I dont call for his head every time we lose

 

We dont score as many goals, no Mahrez explains that to a degree, but our defence has improved massively under him. Today was a bad example because Mendy may as well have worn a Southampton shirt

 

At the end of the day we are doing ok in the league and the true effect of a manager's reign is not witnessed in the first 12 months at a club like ours in the situation we are in

 

I actually think a discussion about Puel's and the team's issues is made difficult to have by the aggressive Puel Out reaction to bad results.  We have had as many good results as poor results under him.

 

[Col city fan]

51 minutes ago, Mark said:

And that is the problem, we’re asking a defensive midfielder to create / play a position he doesn’t suit. Likewise with Ndidi when he’s in a three.. one of them with a Drinkwater type player and we might progress.

Spot on and a point I’ve raised before. The likes of Wilf Ndidi is not a midfield playmaker in any sense of the word. He will only perform to his best when he is playing alongside an older, confident playmaker, freeing him up to do what he does best...being a stopper.

I’m not surprised we are seeing him going backwards under Puel. He’s being asked to do a role he’s not accustomed to and not very good at.

[SixtiesFox]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

Disappointing result of course. Mendy had an absolute shocker and I thought Maguire was poo today too. But one positive for me was that at one point we had Gray, Barnes, Chilwell, Maddison, Ndidi and Choudhury all on the field and were going for the jugular. That IS our team’s future for the next few years. All are young and inexperienced. We are likely already safe from the drop so playing these guys now is IMO a good idea. This is a transition season as is clear to see. 

 

I liked dropping Maddison deep to run the game with Barnes further upfield. I’d be tempted to play that way again. Hamza also looked good when we went to a midfield two so **** it just play him and Ndidi there in the next game. 

 

I know emotions are raw but we had all the possession in the world today and couldn’t score. We know we need to improve in the forward third but there’s no magic wand you can wave to fix it. Barnes looked promising but you could see he’s not on the same wavelength as the other players just yet. We lost today due to two stupid errors. Maybe you can criticise the 433 but Puel changed it at halftime and hooked two players. 

 

I would also say that the despite the loss the game was exciting and it’s not like we weren’t going for it. They camped in their own half and hung on like heroes. Fair play to Southampton they held on and fought for everything. I know this is a repeat situation for us but it will take time to fix. Even Cristiano Ronaldo was more miss than hit in his first season. He didn’t turn out too bad thereafter. 

I admire your optimism and agree with the fact that we have some exciting young talent when unleashed. However, it was no tactical masterclass to go for it in the second half when 2 - 0 down against 10 men. The concern is that we have a manager who is so cautious that his negative approach and consequent failure to seize the initiative often puts us into a hole that is too big for us to dig ourselves out of.

[Foxxed]

51 minutes ago, Dames said:

So now its the fans fault now? Jesus the excuses are really scraping the bottom of the barrell...

No. But when players play in a stadium with a poor atmosphere it will affect them. In the same way the great atmosphere in 15/16 affected the players so much Vardy thanked everyone and spoke of the importance of the atmosphere. Puel's football is one of the reasons the fans are sick of things. But you have to admit the players probably aren't chomping at the bit to play in a stadium where the fans will boo them.

[reynard]

1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Puel is worthy of criticism, but my issue is the criticism he is getting is ridiculously unbalanced

 

Yes, perhaps we can put at his door to a degree lack of effective passing through our midfield against teams that sit back. Using all these DMs could be a mistake. But then again are we just poor in that area as a squad...? Im not sure yet but inclined towards the latter and thats why I dont call for his head every time we lose

 

We dont score as many goals, no Mahrez explains that to a degree, but our defence has improved massively under him. Today was a bad example because Mendy may as well have worn a Southampton shirt

 

At the end of the day we are doing ok in the league and the true effect of a manager's reign is not witnessed in the first 12 months at a club like ours in the situation we are in

 

I actually think a discussion about Puel's and the team's issues is made difficult to have by the aggressive Puel Out reaction to bad results.  We have had as many good results as poor results under him.

 

I do understand your point of view and whilst the results against Man City and Chelsea were excellent equally today and Cardiff were the exact opposite.

I do question the tempo at which we play. I'm not advocating rush around like headless chickens but today was a prime example of allowing the away side to settle into a rhythm and then impose their style of play onto us rather than the other way round. Puel talks a lot about this but doens't seem able to deliver it.

Out transition phase is simply way too slow at times and his tactics today led to Vardy being isolated in the first half yet again.

He gets some things right but I'm still to be conviced.

[smr]

Wilf is great at being gangly and having long legs and intercepting and breaking up play etc. but his passing for the past dozen games has been absolutely woeful. Apart from his gangly presence in midfield I can't see what he offers really. He's not a player that seems to be able to get the ball back and then look for any kind of positive pass.

[Stevosevic]

3 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

No. But when players play in a stadium with a poor atmosphere it will affect them. In the same way the great atmosphere in 15/16 affected the players so much Vardy thanked everyone and spoke of the importance of the atmosphere. Puel's football is one of the reasons the fans are sick of things. But you have to admit the players probably aren't chomping at the bit to play in a stadium where the fans will boo them.

Starts with the players not the fans. The atmosphere resembles what's happening on the pitch. 

 

It's the same everywhere. We get served up dross therefore the atmosphere is poor. 

 

When we're having a go every game the atmosphere is better. It's no coincidence.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, reynard said:

I do understand your point of view and whilst the results against Man City and Chelsea were excellent equally today and Cardiff were the exact opposite.

I do question the tempo at which we play. I'm not advocating rush around like headless chickens but today was a prime example of allowing the away side to settle into a rhythm and then impose their style of play onto us rather than the other way round. Puel talks a lot about this but doens't seem able to deliver it.

Out transition phase is simply way too slow at times and his tactics today led to Vardy being isolated in the first half yet again.

He gets some things right but I'm still to be conviced.

The slowness of our transition has been the most frustrating thing about this season. I have half just accepted it and thought maybe its down to player ability; if it continues so poorly into next season after a summer window I will start to point the finger squarely at Puel too

[Foxxed]

1 hour ago, Hammo said:

I'd say that applying those tactics at home to a very depleted Southampton team with a rested, full-strength XI of his own IS inexcusable.

 

And our home form is so poor BECAUSE he has repeatedly deployed this ponderous, cautious, wait-and-see strategy in the past!

Not sure. If we'd got to half time at 0-0 we could nicked it later with Barnes when we invariably start playing well at about 60 minutes.

[StriderHiryu]

9 minutes ago, SixtiesFox said:

I admire your optimism and agree with the fact that we have some exciting young talent when unleashed. However, it was no tactical masterclass to go for it in the second half when 2 - 0 down against 10 men. The concern is that we have a manager who is so cautious that his negative approach and consequent failure to seize the initiative often puts us into a hole that is too big for us to dig ourselves out of.

Got to disagree with you there. The 433 netted wins against Chelsea, Man City and Everton. The more attacking minded 4231 we employed against Cardiff backfired. If being solid = getting more points, isn't that a good reason to stick to those principles?

 

If your argument is that neither of these formations are good ideas and that against a team struggling near the foot of the table that we should be going for a 442, then I can buy that argument, even if I don't agree with it. I don't think our starting lineup was that defensively minded, and I put it more down to our inability to get hold of the game. If players can't pass the ball properly, what can a manager do? Everyone was guilty of it first half, even Maguire and Ricardo who are normally great at it.

 

The two goals we conceded were poor errors of judgements and nothing to do with our setup. In the second half Puel did everything possible to salvage something. He made the changes early, he removed Hamza to add another attacking player onto the field. Could we have started in the way we ended the game? Possibly, but the game started as 11v11 and not 11v10.

 

Look it's yet another poor home result in a long line of them, but this one isn't on the manager IMO.

Edited 12 January 2019 by StriderHiryu

[fabufox]

Are there really people left amongst us that think Puel should stay?!  Put it like this, excluding Warnock and Hodgson (obvs!), would you not take any other Premier League Manager ahead of him?

[Foxxed]

2 minutes ago, Stevosevic said:

Starts with the players not the fans. The atmosphere resembles what's happening on the pitch. 

 

It's the same everywhere. We get served up dross therefore the atmosphere is poor. 

 

When we're having a go every game the atmosphere is better. It's no coincidence.

I agree it starts with the players. They do affect each other though. It seems no coincidence that our away form is better, now the home fans boo the team.

[nettle]

49 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Well.. Good job we rested the players against Newport cos they obviously need it and I think Maddison is a very lucky lad to play for a premiership side cos he ain’t as good as what people make out.

I think Maddison is a good I just don't think Puel's tactics suit him, go and watch footage of him playing for Norwich. They would play quick ball into feet and let him turn pass and move etc. Puel's laboured style of football just doesn't suit him and quite a few others if you ask me.

[OhYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, fabufox said:

Are there really people left amongst us that think Puel should stay?!  Put it like this, excluding Warnock and Hodgson (obvs!), would you not take any other Premier League Manager ahead of him?

Probably raneiri and Sean dyche but slim pickings

[ROB-THE-BLUE]

7 minutes ago, fabufox said:

Are there really people left amongst us that think Puel should stay?!  Put it like this, excluding Warnock and Hodgson (obvs!), would you not take any other Premier League Manager ahead of him?

Colin W@nker 

Edited 12 January 2019 by ROB-THE-BLUE

[SixtiesFox]

3 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Got to disagree with you there. The 433 netted wins against Chelsea, Man City and Everton. The more attacking minded 4231 we employed against Cardiff backfired. If being solid = getting more points, isn't that a good reason to stick to those principles?

 

If your argument is that neither of these formations are good ideas and that against a team struggling near the foot of the table that we should be going for a 442, then I can buy that argument, even if I don't agree with it.

 

But how anyone can blame the manager for the two goals we conceded is beyond me. They were poor errors of judgements and nothing to do with our setup. In the second half he did everything possible to salvage something. Could we have started in the way we ended the game? Possibly, but the game started as 11v11 and not 11v10.

 

Look it's yet another poor home result in a long line of them, but this one isn't on the manager IMO.

Can't quite understand what you are disagreeing with. I certainly didn't say that playing with 3 defensive midfielders and a defensive mindset against the top teams is the wrong strategy. That is exactly what I would do and as recent results have shown, it works. But against the likes of Cardiff and Southampton at home it makes no sense. Play positive attacking football, start with creative attacking options; take the initiative. For some reason Puel steadfastly refuses to do this and a lengthening list of poor results and performances against weaker opposition continue to illustrate how costly this approach is. 

[Dames]

16 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Not sure. If we'd got to half time at 0-0 we could nicked it later with Barnes when we invariably start playing well at about 60 minutes.

This is where the issue lies.

 

Why should we be getting to half time 0-0 then looking to hopefully nick a result against a team in the bottom 3 with an injury crisis? Why is this our main tactic and why is it being defended and advocated?

 

Puel has been extremely successful in lowering the expectations of some of our fanbase so that we should accept and be thankful for what we are seeing on the pitch. We should be grateful for our league position because we realistically cannot compete with the likes of West Ham, Everton and newly promoted Wolves..

 

I don’t care if he stays or goes but what I care about is the team I support at least trying to play with a bit of passion and urgency. The way they are set up and instructed at the minute is the complete opposite. You can stomach defeats and poor results a lot easier especially when the team has done all it can.. at the minute they are not, they are set up to defend and contain any team we come up against and then see ‘what happens’ through our ‘patience’.

 

The man in charge needs to start getting it right.

Edited 12 January 2019 by Dames