Emiliano Sala Missing.

[Stinkenzo]

On 06/02/2019 at 18:25, Collymore said:

With Sala at the back of the plane and with superior fitness and health you'd imagine if anyone managed to escape it would have been him.

 

Surprisingly not

[woddyuk]

On 22/01/2019 at 14:01, Izzy said:

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Body found in plane wreckage is Emiliano Sala, investigators confirm https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/breaking-emiliano-sala-confirmed-dead-13890793 Sent via @updayUK

Rip 

 

[Buzzell]

Horrendous. Can’t imagine what his family are going through right now. RIP Sala. Hopefully they can recover the remains of the pilot too. Such a horrible story.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

On 06/02/2019 at 18:15, Carl the Llama said:

I don't get the complaints about Nantes:  It's a unique, unenviable situation but a fee was agreed, documents were signed and Nantes relinquished their player, so of course they're entitled to their money as per the agreement. Cardiff have withheld a scheduled payment so the French club have every right to demand it be made. Cardiff using the tragedy as an excuse to pore over the details and delay fulfilling their side of the bargain is the shitty move here...surely they were happy that the paperwork was above board before they made travel arrangements to rush the player over?

Stupid and ignorant comment. Cardiff have intimated they will act honorably and pay when appropriate.

But prior to the sad circumstances that led to the crash being understood and the potential liabilities, which their insurance policy will obviously demand, then their position is correct. Cardiff by everyone's accounts did not make his travel arrangements. 

Moreover, Nantes' publicly stated demand for money at a time when those circumstances are still not known and the then observed body had not been recovered and the operation ongoing was totally crass and insensitive.

Now sadly that the body of Sala has been recovered and identified, and the plane wreckage also studied more closely underwater, the events leading to Nantes getting their fee should be nearer. Sadly of course the pilot's body is still missing. 

Edited 8 February 2019 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[MC Prussian]

R.I.P.

 

What a horrible way to leave this planet, and what a tragedy for Sala's family and friends.

My condolences.

Please find the pilot, too.

[SheppyFox]

Good for closure, atleast they can say goodbye and do things properly, a luxury the pilots family may never know.

[TheUltimateWinner]

Even though you sort of knew it was inevitable it still hits you. RIP Sala. 

[Collymore]

8 hours ago, Walkers said:

Surprisingly not

Yeah did surprise me. Maybe the force threw him out of the window with him being at the front? I'm sure they'll be able to figure out if he escaped or was flung from the wreckage, both ultimately leading to his death sadly. 

[Carl the Llama]

7 hours ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Stupid and ignorant comment. Cardiff have intimated they will act honorably and pay when appropriate.

But prior to the sad circumstances that led to the crash being understood and the potential liabilities, which their insurance policy will obviously demand, then their position is correct. Cardiff by everyone's accounts did not make his travel arrangements. 

Moreover, Nantes' publicly stated demand for money at a time when those circumstances are still not known and the then observed body had not been recovered and the operation ongoing was totally crass and insensitive.

Now sadly that the body of Sala has been recovered and identified, and the plane wreckage also studied more closely underwater, the events leading to Nantes getting their fee should be nearer. Sadly of course the pilot's body is still missing. 

Why's it ignorant? Surely the "appropriate" time to pay monies owed is on the pre-agreed date? The report said they want to make sure the paperwork is above board, but again you have to ask why they agreed to take the player on if they had any doubts about it.  Perhaps I'm being callous but I fail to see what the tragedy has to do with the process.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

Why's it ignorant? Surely the "appropriate" time to pay monies owed is on the pre-agreed date? The report said they want to make sure the paperwork is above board, but again you have to ask why they agreed to take the player on if they had any doubts about it.  Perhaps I'm being callous but I fail to see what the tragedy has to do with the process.

Ignorant simply because you have ignored the known facts. Cardiff did not arrange the flight as you incorrectly stated. You also blatantly disregard the unfortunate need to ascertain the facts fully of the awful incident before any liabilities might be uncovered that could affect how the whole sorry affair is sorted financially. So, yes ignorant, sorry to say. 

[Babylon]

On 06/02/2019 at 23:59, urban.spaceman said:

From a legal standpoint they have every right to demand the money they’re owed. 

 

But to demand money just 10 days after the disappearance of a player who had been at your club for 4 years makes Nantes look extremely cold. There’s a time and a place and perhaps it would have been better if they’d waited a while.

Trying to get out of paying it is also pretty shitty, which is exactly what Cardiff are doing.

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Ignorant simply because you have ignored the known facts. Cardiff did not arrange the flight as you incorrectly stated. You also blatantly disregard the unfortunate need to ascertain the facts fully of the awful incident before any liabilities might be uncovered that could affect how the whole sorry affair is sorted financially. So, yes ignorant, sorry to say. 

The issue is between Cardiff and their insurers (if they had one) and nothing to do with Nantes.

Edited 8 February 2019 by Babylon

[Babylon]

2 hours ago, Collymore said:

Yeah did surprise me. Maybe the force threw him out of the window with him being at the front? I'm sure they'll be able to figure out if he escaped or was flung from the wreckage, both ultimately leading to his death sadly. 

I'd imagine he was strapped in whilst Sala was perhaps not as the passenger in the back (if he was it would have been harder to remove his body). As I said the other day, the door of the plane was open, they said the plane was in fairly good condition, so a secured and locked door is unlikely to just pop off. Pure guess work obviously around what we've seen and know, but it suggests Sala incapacitated and a pilot making an escape into the water.

[Wymsey]

Just a game of football, putting it into perspective - of course - but wonder if it'll affect the player's too much tomorrow in Southampton to perform well?

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

Ignorant simply because you have ignored the known facts. Cardiff did not arrange the flight as you incorrectly stated. You also blatantly disregard the unfortunate need to ascertain the facts fully of the awful incident before any liabilities might be uncovered that could affect how the whole sorry affair is sorted financially. So, yes ignorant, sorry to say. 

The facts of the incident are sadly irrelevant to the contract between Cardiff and Nantes.  Somebody at Cardiff must have given the ok for arrangements to be made even if it was a 3rd party responsible for the finer details.  I get that you might feel some patriotic duty to defend them but please stop insulting me for making a point you don't agree with.

[Jattdogg]

Tragic news that we unfortunately expected. At least his family and friends can find some closure now and try to pick up the peices of their shattered lives.  

 

Really hope they find the pilot but not sure if they will look any more.

 

R.I.P.

[Wymsey]

2 hours ago, Jattdogg said:

Tragic news that we unfortunately expected. At least his family and friends can find some closure now and try to pick up the peices of their shattered lives.  

 

Really hope they find the pilot but not sure if they will look any more.

 

R.I.P.

The leader of the search admit it'll it difficult finding him as the wreckage is in a complex environment given the usual weather conditions and the amount of fishing activity that goes on there which could likely to lead to the body drifting away from the area - unfortunately.

Edited 8 February 2019 by Wymeswold fox

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

2 hours ago, Carl the Llama said:

The facts of the incident are sadly irrelevant to the contract between Cardiff and Nantes.  Somebody at Cardiff must have given the ok for arrangements to be made even if it was a 3rd party responsible for the finer details.  I get that you might feel some patriotic duty to defend them but please stop insulting me for making a point you don't agree with.

You are ignorant of the facts like we all are. FWIW,  I have no 'patriotic duty' or indeed loyalty to Cardiff either so don't insult my intelligence. The facts are far more complicated than you have made out in your first post in which you said that Cardiff were being "shitty" - I think was the term used - and said wrongly they were responsible for the flight. They were not as everyone agrees. 

The issue is far more complicated than you make out. I very much hope and trust that Nantes do not lose out financially. Ditto Cardiff. The sad thing is the loss of two people's lives.

But it is nowadays unfortunate that this is likely more than a simple contract between clubs but rather agents are involved. Moreover in this case, the agents have said they were responsible for making the arrangements for the flight, which might complicate. The fact that there is no sentiment in business works both ways. Nantes might insist that the payment should be made ASAP (though I think the timing was crass) but equally Cardiff need to be cautious business wise in light of the very unusual and sad circumstances that they cover all angles correctly at this juncture. I hope this tragic set of events work out for all. It is far more complex than the simple black and and white you portray and throwing in erroneous detail does not help. 

Edited 8 February 2019 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

The issue is between Cardiff and their insurers (if they had one) and nothing to do with Nantes.

 

3 hours ago, Babylon said:

Trying to get out of paying it is also pretty shitty, which is exactly what Cardiff are doing

No they are not and they have intimated the fee will be paid once the full facts are known. This is a hugely complex issue I suspect and it goes without saying that the circumstances very unusual. You think this is a simple transaction between clubs? No there are agents involved, sadly at several layers in this issue. No sentiment in business works two ways. Nantes are right to expect their fee (though their public announcement timing was insensitive to say the ieast) whilst Cardiff have nothing for their investment and will want to ensure that all was correct and that they do things properly. I hope neither club loses out financially. But most importantly I hope this whole unfortunate incident is sorted such that two sets of grieving families and friends find some solace. 

Edited 8 February 2019 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[Babylon]

14 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

 

No they are not and they have intimated the fee will be paid once the full facts are known. This is a hugely complex issue I suspect and it goes without saying that the circumstances very unusual. You think this is a simple transaction between clubs?

Yes it is a simple transaction between clubs, the sale has been done, the contracts have been signed and he is a Cardiff City player. The facts surrounding his death have absolutely nothing to do with the selling club, he is no longer their player. Doesn't matter if it's two days, two hours, two minutes or two years since the contract was signed that he died. Again, whether there are agents involved matters not, they have nothing to do with a signed and ratified deal. The complex issue is between Sala's estate, Sala's agents, Cardiff and any insurers they have and not Nantes.

[Cadno'r Cymoedd]

15 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Yes it is a simple transaction between clubs, the sale has been done, the contracts have been signed and he is a Cardiff City player. The facts surrounding his death have absolutely nothing to do with the selling club, he is no longer their player. Doesn't matter if it's two days, two hours, two minutes or two years since the contract was signed that he died. Again, whether there are agents involved matters not, they have nothing to do with a signed and ratified deal. The complex issue is between Sala's estate, Sala's agents, Cardiff and any insurers they have and not Nantes.

You dismiss agents' roles with Nantes potentially in this? Or indeed any other potential complications? OK you clearly think you are in possession of all the facts, unlike Cardiff. I would hope and trust that we at Leicester if in the same position would be equally precise in dealing with it business wise whilst displaying compassion. 

Edited 8 February 2019 by Cadno'r Cymoedd

[Babylon]

15 minutes ago, Cadno'r Cymoedd said:

You dismiss agents' roles - what is their role with Nantes potentially in this?  OK you clearly are in possession of all the facts, unlike Cardiff, and so you are obviously right and we will all bow to that. 

He's a Cardiff City player and the deal has gone through the correct channels, that is a fact and that's the only fact that matters in terms of paying the agreed fees with Nantes. I did all the reading about contracts, how the deals are processed and ratified, responsibilities of clubs post deals after we screwed up the Silva signing. Once it's gone through that system then that's it, he's the buying clubs responsibility.

 

I'm not denying it's a complex issue, for Cardiff it is of course an exceptionally complex one and they will be exploring all sorts of avenues, reading insurance contracts (hoping for their sake they exist), reading the players contracts etc, exploring whether they have to pay agents fees and so on. They are buying themselves time to digest their position and it's a tad shitty from Nantes to go public with anything, but they are within their rights to ask for the contract to be honoured.

Edited 8 February 2019 by Babylon

[Wymsey]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

He's a Cardiff City player and the deal has gone through the correct channels, that is a fact and that's the only fact that matters in terms of paying the agreed fees with Nantes. I did all the reading about contracts, how the deals are processed and ratified, responsibilities of clubs post deals after we screwed up the Silva signing. Once it's gone through that system then that's it, he's the buying clubs responsibility.

 

I'm not denying it's a complex issue, for Cardiff it is of course an exceptionally complex one and they will be exploring all sorts of avenues, reading insurance contracts (hoping for their sake they exist), reading the players contracts etc, exploring whether they have to pay agents fees and so on. They are buying themselves time to digest their position and it's a tad shitty from Nantes to go public with anything, but they are within their rights to ask for the contract to be honoured.

If Sala had survived the incident, even with serious career-ending injuries - then yes, still.

However, we're now sadly talking about someone who has lost their life in totally unexpected circumstances.

 

Presumably he had passed his medical etc and the accident just happened after flying from Nantes to say goodbye to his former employers (am not sure if everything was done and dusted before this tradegy?), then it's still with Nantes' right to request for the transfer to be paid to them soon after.

But as this is such an unexpected tragic incident leading to a death of the person in question (RIP), am surprised that Nantes didn't respond to in a more emphatic way than they have towards Cardiff publically and offered them to still pay a good amount of the transfer fee they were selling him for but to a discounted rate? - due to what has happened.

 

Feel as if Nantes, considering what happened, have used a snappy attitude towards Cardiff here, in wanting the fee paid just days before Sala's death was officially announced yesterday without trying to offer some form of compromise regarding the fee - as certainly in Cardiff's view, now, they'll feel it's literally money they've lost wasted down the drain).*

 

*As an understanding from them to the Welsh club that 'although you agreed to buy Sala at a price we had accepted, this was a totally unforeseen circumstances to the extreme that we're willing to lower the price you that you initially agreed to pay for his services to an x amount.

-

It would've been a more moral way of sorting this 'issue' out, really.

[Babylon]

19 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

If Sala had survived the incident, even with serious career-ending injuries - then yes, still.

However, we're now sadly talking about someone who has lost their life in totally unexpected circumstances.

 

Presumably he had passed his medical etc and the accident just happened after flying from Nantes to say goodbye to his former employers (am not sure if everything was done and dusted before this tradegy?), then it's still with Nantes' right to request for the transfer to be paid to them soon after.

But as this is such an unexpected tragic incident leading to a death of the person in question (RIP), am surprised that Nantes didn't respond to in a more emphatic way than they have towards Cardiff publically and offered them to still pay a good amount of the transfer fee they were selling him for but to a discounted rate? - due to what has happened.

 

Feel as if Nantes, considering what happened, have used a snappy attitude towards Cardiff here, in wanting the fee paid just days before Sala's death was officially announced yesterday without trying to offer some form of compromise regarding the fee - as certainly in Cardiff's view, now, they'll feel it's literally money they've lost wasted down the drain).*

 

*As an understanding from them to the Welsh club that 'although you agreed to buy Sala at a price we had accepted, this was a totally unforeseen circumstances to the extreme that we're willing to lower the price you that you initially agreed to pay for his services to an x amount.

-

It would've been a more moral way of sorting this 'issue' out, really.

It's down to Cardiff to make sure he's insured I'm afraid, Nantes could certainly have been a bit more tactful. But from a few searches I can't find them going public about it, that seems to have come from Cardiff attempting to shame them, unless anyone has seen any different. I don't see why they should forfeit their money to a club far richer and one that should be insured to cover their costs. If Cardiff have messed up then that's their issue.

 

Anyway, I think that's enough about it from me. At the end of the day none of this matters, a couple of people lost their life so it's not really even worth the discussion.

[Carl the Llama]

24 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

If Sala had survived the incident, even with serious career-ending injuries - then yes, still.

However, we're now sadly talking about someone who has lost their life in totally unexpected circumstances.

 

Presumably he had passed his medical etc and the accident just happened after flying from Nantes to say goodbye to his former employers (am not sure if everything was done and dusted before this tradegy?), then it's still with Nantes' right to request for the transfer to be paid to them soon after.

But as this is such an unexpected tragic incident leading to a death of the person in question (RIP), am surprised that Nantes didn't respond to in a more emphatic way than they have towards Cardiff publically and offered them to still pay a good amount of the transfer fee they were selling him for but to a discounted rate? - due to what has happened.

 

Feel as if Nantes, considering what happened, have used a snappy attitude towards Cardiff here, in wanting the fee paid just days before Sala's death was officially announced yesterday without trying to offer some form of compromise regarding the fee - as certainly in Cardiff's view, now, they'll feel it's literally money they've lost wasted down the drain).*

 

*As an understanding from them to the Welsh club that 'although you agreed to buy Sala at a price we had accepted, this was a totally unforeseen circumstances to the extreme that we're willing to lower the price you that you initially agreed to pay for his services to an x amount.

-

It would've been a more moral way of sorting this 'issue' out, really.

Nantes shouldn't feel morally obliged to ask for less though: They agreed a fee at which they would be happy to give up their player and have subsequently released him into Cardiff's care. It is irrelevant that the buying club have suffered a tragedy, the sellers still need to be compensated for losing their player.  If the accident had happened when he was on the way to his medical before the deal was signed I doubt anybody would say Cardiff are wrong to not pay any money, the same logic applies in reverse here.