2019/20 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[StanSP]

Ooh, 4-3 with 10 to go...

Tavares, McAteer and Pennant our scorers so far.

[StanSP]

4-4  

McAteer with his 2nd.

[Langston]

Might have been said but is McAteer related to Jason?

[lcfcdotell]

What is Mitchell Clark’s proper position? I was under the assumption that he’s a CB playing RB but he seems very comfortable there. 

[Ric Flair]

16 minutes ago, Langston said:

Might have been said but is McAteer related to Jason?

Think so, he's doing really well this last few months. Proper box to box midfielder.

[LCFC1996]

Kian Pennant with a goal again, 2 in 2 games since moving up to U18 level alongside brother Terell who got the assist according to Soccerway

Edited 4 January 2020 by LCFC1996

[Jimmy]

ideally by the end of this window Luke Thomas, Darnell Johnson, Kieran Dewsbury-Hall, Admiral Muskwe and George Hirst would all be out on loan, the best young players, unless they are getting first team match time, need to be out on loan

[lcfcsnow]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

ideally by the end of this window Luke Thomas, Darnell Johnson, Kieran Dewsbury-Hall, Admiral Muskwe and George Hirst would all be out on loan, the best young players, unless they are getting first team match time, need to be out on loan

[Jimmy]

5 minutes ago, lcfcsnow said:

thankfully the first team manager doesn't care about U23 results so might be able to get them the first team football that will help their development

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

ideally by the end of this window Luke Thomas, Darnell Johnson, Kieran Dewsbury-Hall, Admiral Muskwe and George Hirst would all be out on loan, the best young players, unless they are getting first team match time, need to be out on loan

It would be nice if our players could get league experience but for that to happen teams actually need to WANT them. It seems a lot of teams prefer chelsea/Liverpool teenagers instead.

 

Leicester also need to be sure that these players will then get playing time in a situation that is beneficial. The U23 set up is not ideal but better to get playing time there in a setup made for Leicester and monitored by Leicester than for these players to sit on a bench or just get to train with a low league team.

[jeffschlupp]

On the subject of loans, I thought I'd look at the breakthrough ages of Chilwell, Barnes and Choudhury:

Hamza - aged 18 and 4 months went for his first loan in League 1 with Burton Albion, made 13 apps in League One. Loan extended to following January, played 13 Championship games before Jan 2017 recall (age 19). Spent rest of 16-17 in U23s. 

Made City debut in Nov 2017 shortly after turning 20. Played a part in final 7 games of season (mostly due to midfield injuries), aged 20 years and 6 months. Didn't return to first team in league until after 21st birthday for Chelsea/Man City double header in Dec 2018. Since then he has pretty much been a matchday regular.

 

Barnes - made City debut in the Porto debacle. Shortly after 19th birthday loaned into League One at MK Dons where he impressed for second half of season. Spent first half of 17-18 with Barnsley before recall, with a few FA Cup appearances/PL cameos but mostly U23s football in rest of season. 18-19 loan to WBA aged 20. Recalled shortly after 21st birthday in January. First team regular from the get go.

 

Chilwell - loaned to Huddersfield shortly before 19th birthday. Made 8 apps before returning to City in Jan 2016, spent rest of season in U23s with odd FA Cup appearance e.g. at Spurs. Used sparingly 16-17 until Everton Dec 2016 (just after he turned 20). Matchday squad regular from there, interchanging with Fuchs.

 

-

 

I know it's a small sample size, but my point is that the general pattern seems to be that players should be integrated into the first team picture before they even get close to their 22nd birthday, and at least 12-18 months before that they should have been getting loan experience in L1/Champ.

 

Uche and Thomas are already 22. The former went to Real Betis B and hasn't been seen all season, the latter was hardly up to scratch at Scunthorpe last season.

Bolkiah, Muskwe, Johnson, KDH, Johansson and Eppiah are 21. They have a loan spell at Alfreton (Johansson, while at Villa) and 25 minutes at Hibs between them.

Hirst and Clark turn 21 in the next 2 months. The former flopped at Leuven, the latter did well at Port Vale last season but that was at the lower end of League 2, and he's back in U23 football again.

O'Connor, Leshabela and Ughelumba turn 21 this calendar year. The latter 2 have no senior experience, the first has played for the mighty Wexford in Ireland and only made his U23 debut the other day.

 

Most of those are our PL2 regulars. You look further down and Reghba, Wright, Tee, Shade, Kranthove, Husek, Hulme and Stolarczyk all turn 20 this year. Only Wright and arguably Reghba have even had a sniff at the U23s this season. Further than that are the 18 year old full-backs Thomas and Daley-Campbell, who have had minutes. Tavares, Arlott-John and Gyamfi were involved last season (and went to Hong Kong) and have all suddenly ended up back in the U18s again.

 

That shambles doesn't even include Hughes, Knight, Ndukwu, Loft and co who have all been seemingly shafted by the club's insistence on keeping them around.

 

You can bring the examples of the late bloomers like Townsend, Kane and Lingard, but those lads were playing Championship football at young ages still. None of these look likely to do so.

 

If we want to bring through more players, more often, then we have to be moving on some of the older guys sooner, showcasing the talents of more teenagers, and getting those at 19 and 20 out on loan. 

 

Instead, we will probably see KDH, Johnson and Hirst get loans, when really it ought to be guys like Luke Thomas and Wright who are getting their first senior football at this stage of development.

[Detroit Blues]

2 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

On the subject of loans, I thought I'd look at the breakthrough ages of Chilwell, Barnes and Choudhury:

Hamza - aged 18 and 4 months went for his first loan in League 1 with Burton Albion, made 13 apps in League One. Loan extended to following January, played 13 Championship games before Jan 2017 recall (age 19). Spent rest of 16-17 in U23s. 

Made City debut in Nov 2017 shortly after turning 20. Played a part in final 7 games of season (mostly due to midfield injuries), aged 20 years and 6 months. Didn't return to first team in league until after 21st birthday for Chelsea/Man City double header in Dec 2018. Since then he has pretty much been a matchday regular.

 

Barnes - made City debut in the Porto debacle. Shortly after 19th birthday loaned into League One at MK Dons where he impressed for second half of season. Spent first half of 17-18 with Barnsley before recall, with a few FA Cup appearances/PL cameos but mostly U23s football in rest of season. 18-19 loan to WBA aged 20. Recalled shortly after 21st birthday in January. First team regular from the get go.

 

Chilwell - loaned to Huddersfield shortly before 19th birthday. Made 8 apps before returning to City in Jan 2016, spent rest of season in U23s with odd FA Cup appearance e.g. at Spurs. Used sparingly 16-17 until Everton Dec 2016 (just after he turned 20). Matchday squad regular from there, interchanging with Fuchs.

 

-

 

I know it's a small sample size, but my point is that the general pattern seems to be that players should be integrated into the first team picture before they even get close to their 22nd birthday, and at least 12-18 months before that they should have been getting loan experience in L1/Champ.

 

Uche and Thomas are already 22. The former went to Real Betis B and hasn't been seen all season, the latter was hardly up to scratch at Scunthorpe last season.

Bolkiah, Muskwe, Johnson, KDH, Johansson and Eppiah are 21. They have a loan spell at Alfreton (Johansson, while at Villa) and 25 minutes at Hibs between them.

Hirst and Clark turn 21 in the next 2 months. The former flopped at Leuven, the latter did well at Port Vale last season but that was at the lower end of League 2, and he's back in U23 football again.

O'Connor, Leshabela and Ughelumba turn 21 this calendar year. The latter 2 have no senior experience, the first has played for the mighty Wexford in Ireland and only made his U23 debut the other day.

 

Most of those are our PL2 regulars. You look further down and Reghba, Wright, Tee, Shade, Kranthove, Husek, Hulme and Stolarczyk all turn 20 this year. Only Wright and arguably Reghba have even had a sniff at the U23s this season. Further than that are the 18 year old full-backs Thomas and Daley-Campbell, who have had minutes. Tavares, Arlott-John and Gyamfi were involved last season (and went to Hong Kong) and have all suddenly ended up back in the U18s again.

 

That shambles doesn't even include Hughes, Knight, Ndukwu, Loft and co who have all been seemingly shafted by the club's insistence on keeping them around.

 

You can bring the examples of the late bloomers like Townsend, Kane and Lingard, but those lads were playing Championship football at young ages still. None of these look likely to do so.

 

If we want to bring through more players, more often, then we have to be moving on some of the older guys sooner, showcasing the talents of more teenagers, and getting those at 19 and 20 out on loan. 

 

Instead, we will probably see KDH, Johnson and Hirst get loans, when really it ought to be guys like Luke Thomas and Wright who are getting their first senior football at this stage of development.

You also have to remember players progress at different rates. At 20/21, some players are still growing and filling in to their bodies. It might not make sense to send certain players out to League 1 / Championship, where they are going to get physically dominated, and end up withering away on the bench. 

 

If we use the players that succeeded early in their development as the measuring stick, and push out the rest, we would lose out on potential late bloomers. 

[Jimmy]

28 minutes ago, FIF said:

It would be nice if our players could get league experience but for that to happen teams actually need to WANT them. It seems a lot of teams prefer chelsea/Liverpool teenagers instead.

 

Leicester also need to be sure that these players will then get playing time in a situation that is beneficial. The U23 set up is not ideal but better to get playing time there in a setup made for Leicester and monitored by Leicester than for these players to sit on a bench or just get to train with a low league team.

yes you have to pick the right club for the loan but Dewsbury-Hall is gaining nothing playing in U23's mostly against players younger than him, we have a loans manager don't we? its his job to arrange all this

[Guest An Sionnach]

Harvey Elliott is years younger than any of them and will probably be in the full Liverpool squad next season. We seem to think 22 and 23 year olds are "young" . Tony Adams captained Arsenal at 22, we leave it far too long to introduce our development players.

[jeffschlupp]

2 minutes ago, Detroit Blues said:

You also have to remember players progress at different rates. At 20/21, some players are still growing and filling in to their bodies. It might not make sense to send certain players out to League 1 / Championship, where they are going to get physically dominated, and end up withering away on the bench. 

 

If we use the players that succeeded early in their development as the measuring stick, and push out the rest, we would lose out on potential late bloomers. 

But we haven't had any late bloomers, and the late bloomers at other clubs have still gone out on loan fairly early in their development.

 

I'd rather a player goes somewhere and realise they need a bit longer in the U23s than spend longer playing in PL2 than they need.

Edited 7 January 2020 by jeffschlupp

[LCFCbwoi]

Anyone got any idea if the game against Tranmere is on LCFCTV? be a good watch

[Detroit Blues]

1 minute ago, jeffschlupp said:

But we haven't had any late bloomers, and the late bloomers at other clubs have still gone out on loan fairly early in their development.

 

I'd rather a player goes somewhere and realise they need a bit longer in the U23s than spend longer playing in PL2 than they need.

Not necessarily from our academy, but certainly we have been the recipient of other teams misfortunes. Vardy, Mahrez, etc. Players who needed to develop more before blossoming into premier league stars. 

[CosbehFox]

Was explained on 5Live by Carlisle manager - the new loan rules which are in the Football League mean that clubs are far more picky with what loanees they acquire. Whereas before they could take a gamble and get someone in for a month. Now it has to be long term and they restricted on how many. So it's even harder to get a January loan move. 

[brucey]

1 hour ago, jeffschlupp said:

That shambles doesn't even include Hughes, Knight, Ndukwu, Loft and co who have all been seemingly shafted by the club's insistence on keeping them around.

All 4 have been sent out on loan this first half of the season, only Knight’s loan has been successful. The others probably would have been better served playing regularly for the U23s and participating in Brendan’s training sessions, than sitting on a L1/L2 bench twiddling their thumbs. Ndukwu’s just been sent back to us. Real shame about Hughes, one of the best aerial threats at corners I’ve seen, I’m sure we wanted to loan him out ages ago but was thwarted by injury. Loft I think just isn’t good enough.
 

Edited 7 January 2020 by brucey

[Guest]

2 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

Harvey Elliott is years younger than any of them and will probably be in the full Liverpool squad next season. We seem to think 22 and 23 year olds are "young" . Tony Adams captained Arsenal at 22, we leave it far too long to introduce our development players.

or maybe they are just not good enough.

[StanSP]

Nice of Tranmere to do this. 

 

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Was explained on 5Live by Carlisle manager - the new loan rules which are in the Football League mean that clubs are far more picky with what loanees they acquire. Whereas before they could take a gamble and get someone in for a month. Now it has to be long term and they restricted on how many. So it's even harder to get a January loan move. 

doesn't have to be to the EFL, plenty of young players go to the Dutch league for example

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, jeffschlupp said:

On the subject of loans, I thought I'd look at the breakthrough ages of Chilwell, Barnes and Choudhury:

Hamza - aged 18 and 4 months went for his first loan in League 1 with Burton Albion, made 13 apps in League One. Loan extended to following January, played 13 Championship games before Jan 2017 recall (age 19). Spent rest of 16-17 in U23s. 

Made City debut in Nov 2017 shortly after turning 20. Played a part in final 7 games of season (mostly due to midfield injuries), aged 20 years and 6 months. Didn't return to first team in league until after 21st birthday for Chelsea/Man City double header in Dec 2018. Since then he has pretty much been a matchday regular.

 

Barnes - made City debut in the Porto debacle. Shortly after 19th birthday loaned into League One at MK Dons where he impressed for second half of season. Spent first half of 17-18 with Barnsley before recall, with a few FA Cup appearances/PL cameos but mostly U23s football in rest of season. 18-19 loan to WBA aged 20. Recalled shortly after 21st birthday in January. First team regular from the get go.

 

Chilwell - loaned to Huddersfield shortly before 19th birthday. Made 8 apps before returning to City in Jan 2016, spent rest of season in U23s with odd FA Cup appearance e.g. at Spurs. Used sparingly 16-17 until Everton Dec 2016 (just after he turned 20). Matchday squad regular from there, interchanging with Fuchs.

 

-

 

I know it's a small sample size, but my point is that the general pattern seems to be that players should be integrated into the first team picture before they even get close to their 22nd birthday, and at least 12-18 months before that they should have been getting loan experience in L1/Champ.

 

Uche and Thomas are already 22. The former went to Real Betis B and hasn't been seen all season, the latter was hardly up to scratch at Scunthorpe last season.

Bolkiah, Muskwe, Johnson, KDH, Johansson and Eppiah are 21. They have a loan spell at Alfreton (Johansson, while at Villa) and 25 minutes at Hibs between them.

Hirst and Clark turn 21 in the next 2 months. The former flopped at Leuven, the latter did well at Port Vale last season but that was at the lower end of League 2, and he's back in U23 football again.

O'Connor, Leshabela and Ughelumba turn 21 this calendar year. The latter 2 have no senior experience, the first has played for the mighty Wexford in Ireland and only made his U23 debut the other day.

 

Most of those are our PL2 regulars. You look further down and Reghba, Wright, Tee, Shade, Kranthove, Husek, Hulme and Stolarczyk all turn 20 this year. Only Wright and arguably Reghba have even had a sniff at the U23s this season. Further than that are the 18 year old full-backs Thomas and Daley-Campbell, who have had minutes. Tavares, Arlott-John and Gyamfi were involved last season (and went to Hong Kong) and have all suddenly ended up back in the U18s again.

 

That shambles doesn't even include Hughes, Knight, Ndukwu, Loft and co who have all been seemingly shafted by the club's insistence on keeping them around.

 

You can bring the examples of the late bloomers like Townsend, Kane and Lingard, but those lads were playing Championship football at young ages still. None of these look likely to do so.

 

If we want to bring through more players, more often, then we have to be moving on some of the older guys sooner, showcasing the talents of more teenagers, and getting those at 19 and 20 out on loan. 

 

Instead, we will probably see KDH, Johnson and Hirst get loans, when really it ought to be guys like Luke Thomas and Wright who are getting their first senior football at this stage of development.

 

It's quite scandalous that only 1 player from last seasons U18's has been promoted full time to the U23's this season, there seems to be a complete impasse right now.

[CosbehFox]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

doesn't have to be to the EFL, plenty of young players go to the Dutch league for example

But similar rules, six month loan deals. Clubs take players in need to know they are going to be hit rather than a short term gamble they can risk. 

 

Ive just been through the Eredivisie teams and of the five players I found loaned from English clubs, only one of them had appeared in more than six matches 

[st albans fox]

Losing ......