Brexit!

[Guest MattP]

38 minutes ago, bmt said:

This argument is infantile. They've both been guilty of it, that doesn't make it fine. Also from your list of words 'coup' was used by both sides, 'liar' is a fact, 'dictator' is a fair way of explaining the unlawful prorogation. Fair enough on 'fascist' although I don't think that's thrown around willy nilly.

 

And the fact you are bringing up McDonnell quotes from 5 years ago shows that abuse shouldn't be accepted. Both sides have been guilty in the past but the debate was about moving forward, especially since the threat to politicians has been shown due to the murder of Jo Cox. To dismiss it as humbug is despicable.

Posts like this don't even surprise me anymore, the hypocrisy is just there for all to see. We can call him a dictator (I'm sure the people living under real ones send their sympathies over the brutal prorogation) but you can't say anything and if you do we'll shout Jo Cox until you shut up.

 

If you don't want to talk about quotes from five years ago just look at more recent ones from just the last few months,

 

David Lammy saying the ERG are worse than Nazis - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

Ed Davey just a few weeks ago writing in the Times that he wants to "decapitate Johnson" - https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/liberal-democrats/news/104843/lib-dem-leadership-hopeful-ed-davey-issues

Liam Byrne accusing him of treason - https://twitter.com/LiamByrneMP/status/1176451682512846848

 

Many on the left in this day and age rely on controlling the language used from their opponets to try and win, when that system falls apart they lose - it happened in the Brexit debate, it happened with Trump, it happened in Brazil and it will happen with Boris Johnson, which is why they are absolutely terrified of calling an election and are now trying to remove words like "betrayal" and "surrender" from the election campaign before it even starts. What Johnson said about Jo Cox was wrong and he should apologise, but there is nothing wrong whatsoever with calling the Benn act a "surrender bill" because thats what is it, it compells the PM of this country to go and ask for an extension to something and to accept it, taking it out of his control.

 

What is even worse is that this "law" has been created by many people who lied about their political beliefs to get into parliament to create it, people like Philip Lee who win the votes of the leave electorate in places like Braintree and then walk across the floor to stand with the Liberal Democrats, 7% of his constituents voted for them and he sees fit now to stand as their MP trying to overturn a democratic result he promised to implement when standing as the candidate for those constituents, it's outrageous and shouldn't be tolerated.

 

Many MP's on those opposition benches need to realise that the left controlling the language of the right whilst they themselves have free reign to say whatever they want are long gone, we've seen through the bullshit and it's not going to work anymore.

[Leicester_Loyal]

 

[bmt]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Posts like this don't even surprise me anymore, the hypocrisy is just there for all to see. We can call him a dictator (I'm sure the people living under real ones send their sympathies over the brutal prorogation) but you can't say anything and if you do we'll shout Jo Cox until you shut up.

 

If you don't want to talk about quotes from five years ago just look at more recent ones from just the last few months,

 

David Lammy saying the ERG are worse than Nazis - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

Ed Davey just a few weeks ago writing in the Times that he wants to "decapitate Johnson" - https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/liberal-democrats/news/104843/lib-dem-leadership-hopeful-ed-davey-issues

Liam Byrne accusing him of treason - https://twitter.com/LiamByrneMP/status/1176451682512846848

 

Many on the left in this day and age rely on controlling the language used from their opponets to try and win, when that system falls apart they lose - it happened in the Brexit debate, it happened with Trump, it happened in Brazil and it will happen with Boris Johnson, which is why they are absolutely terrified of calling an election and are now trying to remove words like "betrayal" and "surrender" from the election campaign before it even starts. What Johnson said about Jo Cox was wrong and he should apologise, but there is nothing wrong whatsoever with calling the Benn act a "surrender bill" because thats what is it, it compells the PM of this country to go and ask for an extension to something and to accept it, taking it out of his control.

 

What is even worse is that this "law" has been created by many people who lied about their political beliefs to get into parliament to create it, people like Philip Lee who win the votes of the leave electorate in places like Braintree and then walk across the floor to stand with the Liberal Democrats, 7% of his constituents voted for them and he sees fit now to stand as their MP trying to overturn a democratic result he promised to implement when standing as the candidate for those constituents, it's outrageous and shouldn't be tolerated.

 

Many MP's on those opposition benches need to realise that the left controlling the language of the right whilst they themselves have free reign to say whatever they want are long gone, we've seen through the bullshit and it's not going to work anymore.

 

 

Saying it is hypocritical is completely missing the point of what I said. I said it is wrong for both sides to use such language, and to dismiss it as humbug is entirely unbefitting of the PM.

 

One of the examples you used was apologised for, one I think was a serious point (although I disagree with it) and the Nazi one is obviously wrong and Lammy should have apologised/shouldn't have said it (if I remember correctly he doubled-down instead). Again I don't think the examples are that important - if the government agreed that such dangerous language shouldn't be used they would quite rightly be able to stop opposition politicians using them too. Instead they dismiss it.

 

I find the elections you have decided to use as examples quite funny. Not exactly clean elections.

 

I completely disagree about 'Surrender' bill. Using your view of it (which is different to mine), it is more a 'weakening your hand' bill, but that doesn't sound so good to the nationalists that comments like that are designed to attract. And that is the problem > it is hate promoting language (as are the McDonnell comments that have been brought up).

 

By the way, and this isn't necessarily aimed at you - defending the Tory right to say what they want whilst also criticising things left politicians have said is equally hypocritical.

 

 

 

[Finnaldo]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Posts like this don't even surprise me anymore, the hypocrisy is just there for all to see. We can call him a dictator (I'm sure the people living under real ones send their sympathies over the brutal prorogation) but you can't say anything and if you do we'll shout Jo Cox until you shut up.

 

If you don't want to talk about quotes from five years ago just look at more recent ones from just the last few months,

 

David Lammy saying the ERG are worse than Nazis - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/14/comparing-erg-to-nazis-not-strong-enough-says-david-lammy

Ed Davey just a few weeks ago writing in the Times that he wants to "decapitate Johnson" - https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/liberal-democrats/news/104843/lib-dem-leadership-hopeful-ed-davey-issues

Liam Byrne accusing him of treason - https://twitter.com/LiamByrneMP/status/1176451682512846848

 

You don't have to be Idi Amin or al-Assad to have dictatorial tendencies. I wouldn't personally call him a dictator but it was clearly undemocratic and the Supreme Court ruined unanimously so. As such, he has in objective legal terms been undemocratic.

 

David Lammy is a backbencher. For everything foolish thing he says (not a fan of his on the whole) he has little influence compared to PM's and his cabinet who have been directly inflammatory in full view of the national media.

 

Ed Davey failed a leadership party for the Tory-lite party. Whatever he says is a desperate attempt to gain seats for a centre party, has nothing to do with the Left.

 

Liam Byrne probably has a point, is deceiving or misleading to your monarch to achieve your own political goal not an argument of treason? Probably wouldn't get charged but it not even that far off tbf  

 

 

23 minutes ago, MattP said:

Many on the left in this day and age rely on controlling the language used from their opponets to try and win, when that system falls apart they lose - it happened in the Brexit debate, it happened with Trump, it happened in Brazil and it will happen with Boris Johnson, which is why they are absolutely terrified of calling an election and are now trying to remove words like "betrayal" and "surrender" from the election campaign before it even starts. What Johnson said about Jo Cox was wrong and he should apologise, but there is nothing wrong whatsoever with calling the Benn act a "surrender bill" because thats what is it, it compells the PM of this country to go and ask for an extension to something and to accept it, taking it out of his control.

 

'Controlling language' is interesting. Perhaps they are, probably because it benefits the opposition to get away from semantics and soundbites that villify them in the pantomime way that Cummings excels in creating, and towards the reality of where we actually are on the ground, without much of a plan than diving out without a deal.

 

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

What is even worse is that this "law" has been created by many people who lied about their political beliefs to get into parliament to create it, people like Philip Lee who win the votes of the leave electorate in places like Braintree and then walk across the floor to stand with the Liberal Democrats, 7% of his constituents voted for them and he sees fit now to stand as their MP trying to overturn a democratic result he promised to implement when standing as the candidate for those constituents, it's outrageous and shouldn't be tolerated.

 

Many MP's on those opposition benches need to realise that the left controlling the language of the right whilst they themselves have free reign to say whatever they want are long gone, we've seen through the bullshit and it's not going to work anymore.

 

It's interesting you're using a very similar tactic in using the 'LEFT' as to encompass a bloc including a centre party Lib Dems which vacuumed in centrist politicians like Lee and Umunna as well as an ex-Tory bloc led by Ken Clarke.

 

It seems in my view at least, to be the Hard Right of the Tories versus everyone else, yet you're again using the same language as Boris to create the siege mentality of everyone vs 'THE LEFT'. Obviously its extremely effective, but it doesn't see to reflect the reality much.

[RoboFox]

12 hours ago, MattP said:

But "coup" "fascist" "dictator" "liar" are absolutely fine and will incite absolutely no one.

 

And then when election day comes half the people complaining about Boris amd his language will then go and vote for John "lynch the bitch" and "no Tory should walk the streets without direct action" McDonnell to be Chancellor.

 

But... There doesn't really seem to be an lot of love on here for McDonnell. 

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say I haven't seen a single post on here backing his policies, and certainly no support for some of the totally unacceptable remarks he's made in the past.

 

But your blind loyalty to the Tories, and / or refusal to accept criticism of them even though Johnson has acted in a frankly abhorrent manner, has once again led you to retract to your default position of attacking him (or Corybn) when they were never really part of the discussion in the first place.

 

It's a bit ****ing weird, Matt, TBH.

 

Edited 26 September 2019 by RoboFox

[LiberalFox]

It suits Johnson to just make this a pantomime, it's all he has. 

[Alf Bentley]

12 hours ago, MattP said:

But "coup" "fascist" "dictator" "liar" are absolutely fine and will incite absolutely no one.

 

And then when election day comes half the people complaining about Boris amd his language will then go and vote for John "lynch the bitch" and "no Tory should walk the streets without direct action" McDonnell to be Chancellor.

 

Your point that both sides have wrongly used extreme language is a fair one - and the examples you quote in your post today (Lammy, Davey & Byrne) are fair, though Davey apologised.

People on all sides should tone it down.

 

But most uses of "coup" and "dictator" have referred to Johnson's unlawful abuse of power to suspend democracy. I'm a moderate sort of bloke in his 50s, but that made me angrier than anything in politics for decades - far more than Brexit. In the context, words like "coup" and "dictator" are slightly OTT, but only slightly. As @bmt has said, "liar" seems a factual description. He no longer even continues his shallow pretence that he prorogued parliament to prepare the Queen's Speech - for 5 weeks instead of the usual 6 days. Likewise, his decision not to give a witness statement to the Supreme Court spoke volumes. All his rhetoric yesterday was about the judgment and parliament blocking Brexit, not the Queen's Speech. 

 

In contrast, his references to "surrender bill" and betrayal concern democratic decisions taken by our elected parliament. He's entitled to contest them, but such inflammatory language brings parliament into disrepute - precisely his intention, as he prepares to polarise society ready for a toxic election, pitting "the people" (the mob?) against our democratic and legal authorities. He hopes this will give him unfettered power for 5 years.

 

I'm glad you've recognised that Johnson was wrong to make his comment about Jo Cox. For any Brexiteers who don't see how serious that was, imagine the opposite:

Imagine that Rees-Mogg had been stabbed and shot to death by a Far Leftist in 2016 & Corbyn announced that the best tribute we could pay to Jacob would be to stop Brexit?! That would be outrageous - as Boris' comment was.

The "humbug" comment was equally despicable. An MP was murdered 3 years ago. A lot of MPs, including the one speaking, have received death threats. Her request to stop polarising language was not humbug, it was sincere & important.

 

A consequence of his attitude will almost certainly be to make a Brexit Deal much less likely. Lisa Nandy, a Labour MP who's been consistently seeking such a deal, said just that this morning. As the PM clearly cannot rely on all his own MPs (particularly the ERG) to vote through a deal, he would almost certainly need the support of a significant minority of Labour MPs. How many will feel able to support him after this? His words might even unite a divided opposition behind a strategy to replace him with a provisional govt/PM. Does he care? Maybe not, if his aim is to end up with a Parliament v. People election that gives him a majority that he'd use to introduce No Deal and rule unchallenged for 5 years.....speculation, I know.

 

I searched out the 2 McDonnell comments that you referenced, so people can judge for themselves. They're from 2012 & 2014, when he was a backbencher. That doesn't stop them being relevant, but makes them a bit less relevant - just as Boris' call for Turkey to join the UK in an expanded EU, years back, is relevant, but not as relevant as if he said it today.

- The "direct action" comment: He adds "direct action" as an after-thought to calling for Tories to be "challenged" wherever they go. I've no problem with that, so long as "challenged" means the sort of verbal challenges Boris has faced from members of the public in recent weeks and not intimidation (like that faced by Soubry, Phillips, Rees-Mogg, Farage). I have a much bigger problem with his next comment about "trying" Tories for "social crimes" committed in office.....sinister and out of order.

- The "lynch the bitch" comment was actually "lynch the bastard" and he was quoting someone else's comment while trying to be funny at a party comedy night. To me, that's misguided (as his humour sometimes is), not threatening.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-42682854/audio-of-john-mcdonnell-s-2014-lynching-remark

[StanSP]

Just seen what Boris said about getting Brexit done as the best way to honour the memory of Jo Cox. 

 

Absolutely pathetic. How the fvck do you get away with saying something like that? This, directly after calls to moderate his divisive and inflammatory language. 

 

It's just beyond belief. 

 

And yes, other politicians (including Labour ones) may have said some stuff in the past but that doesn't make it fvcking right. 

 

It's the old 'my friend is back so I can't be racist' analogy. You can still be a massive CVNT in charge of our country though that wins fvck all and does anything and everything but 'unite the country'. He even used the words 'dial down the anxiety'. More utterly pointless snippets. 

 

There's no style or substance about Boris. Just pure embarrassment and sadly the face of politics these days. 

[Dames]

No matter what you think of Boris Johnson and how awfully he behaved yesterday - I fully believe that performance has won him the next general election, potentially by a landslide.

 

Corbyn has been ineffective against the two worst Governments of our time and he has let the Labour party get taken over by a bunch of Left-Wing extremists - He has to go and sanity has to be restored to the Labour party to even stand a chance of pulling this Country out of the hole its in. The Conservatives have thrown their weight behind Johnson and closed ranks, they are on election footing and he is the most electable candidate they have and they know it.

 

Its genuinely scary to think where the Country is going to go in the next 5 years under hard Conservative rule after the lows Parliament has stooped in the past few months.

[Guest MattP]

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

Your point that both sides have wrongly used extreme language is a fair one - and the examples you quote in your post today (Lammy, Davey & Byrne) are fair, though Davey apologised.

People on all sides should tone it down.

 

But most uses of "coup" and "dictator" have referred to Johnson's unlawful abuse of power to suspend democracy. I'm a moderate sort of bloke in his 50s, but that made me angrier than anything in politics for decades - far more than Brexit. In the context, words like "coup" and "dictator" are slightly OTT, but only slightly. As @bmt has said, "liar" seems a factual description. He no longer even continues his shallow pretence that he prorogued parliament to prepare the Queen's Speech - for 5 weeks instead of the usual 6 days. Likewise, his decision not to give a witness statement to the Supreme Court spoke volumes. All his rhetoric yesterday was about the judgment and parliament blocking Brexit, not the Queen's Speech. 

 

In contrast, his references to "surrender bill" and betrayal concern democratic decisions taken by our elected parliament. He's entitled to contest them, but such inflammatory language brings parliament into disrepute - precisely his intention, as he prepares to polarise society ready for a toxic election, pitting "the people" (the mob?) against our democratic and legal authorities. He hopes this will give him unfettered power for 5 years.

 

I'm glad you've recognised that Johnson was wrong to make his comment about Jo Cox. For any Brexiteers who don't see how serious that was, imagine the opposite:

Imagine that Rees-Mogg had been stabbed and shot to death by a Far Leftist in 2016 & Corbyn announced that the best tribute we could pay to Jacob would be to stop Brexit?! That would be outrageous - as Boris' comment was.

The "humbug" comment was equally despicable. An MP was murdered 3 years ago. A lot of MPs, including the one speaking, have received death threats. Her request to stop polarising language was not humbug, it was sincere & important.

 

A consequence of his attitude will almost certainly be to make a Brexit Deal much less likely. Lisa Nandy, a Labour MP who's been consistently seeking such a deal, said just that this morning. As the PM clearly cannot rely on all his own MPs (particularly the ERG) to vote through a deal, he would almost certainly need the support of a significant minority of Labour MPs. How many will feel able to support him after this? His words might even unite a divided opposition behind a strategy to replace him with a provisional govt/PM. Does he care? Maybe not, if his aim is to end up with a Parliament v. People election that gives him a majority that he'd use to introduce No Deal and rule unchallenged for 5 years.....speculation, I know.

I certainly don't contest Boris is a liar, that's beyond doubt. I don't think he is a dictator though or that recent events were "a coup", if he is, then so are leaders like Ramsay McDonald and John Major who also prorogued parliament for an extended period of time to avoid scrutiny (the former during the great depression and the latter during the cash for questions scandal).

 

I think we all know he's going for an election like the one you describe, but again, I don't actually see this as too much of a problem. This is now the Leave voters v the Remain part of the establishment and the electorate does deserve to see and hear the steps parliament has taken to weaken the hand of the Prime Minisiter in these negotiations in the strongest possible terms, some no doubt in good faith wanting to stop no deal (Rory Stewart, Sarah Champion etc) but many seeing is as the end goal of overturning the referendum result (David Lammy, Caroline Lucas, Jo Swinson). This is how elections tend to go now, is what the Labour party is doing any different judging by conference? They are also running a people v the establishment campaign, they just view the elite as a slightly different one to what the leave voters do (private schools, bankers, landlords, Tories)

 

Agree on the Humbug qote, although just as bad today hearing Jess Phillips claim he "described the murder of Jo Cox as "humbag" which is also disgraceful lying and likely to inflame the situation.

 

Regarding that Rees Mogg analogy, we already have one - terrorists did murder four Conservative MP's years ago and we know exactly which side Jeremy Corbyn stood with when it happened, as Nigel Dodds beautifully pointed out yesterday as well, they also murdered judges and it's nice to see the Labour party leader has now come around to defending the judicary rather that those that killed them. Maybe we could turn it around? Imagine how the Labour Remainers would feel had a Tory backbencher invited a couple of members of Britain First to the HoC a couple of weeks after Jo Cox had been murdered? - My guess is they would quite rightly be furious and I would hope if a Conservative backbencher did that he wouldn't be leading the party in 2040.

 

Anyway, Conservative conference next week - let's hope the Labour leadership asks for some calm on that front, last time it was in Manchester delegates had to walk through a crowd of protestors getting to the event spitting at them and calling them "Tory Scum" etc - wouldn't it be nice if this year we didn't see any of that and they can go to conference in peace like all other party members can.

[WigstonWanderer]

15 hours ago, MattP said:

But "coup" "fascist" "dictator" "liar" are absolutely fine and will incite absolutely no one.

 

And then when election day comes half the people complaining about Boris amd his language will then go and vote for John "lynch the bitch" and "no Tory should walk the streets without direct action" McDonnell to be Chancellor.

Isn’t this what they call whataboutery?

[bmt]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

No matter what you think of Boris Johnson and how awfully he behaved yesterday - I fully believe that performance has won him the next general election, potentially by a landslide.

 

Corbyn has been ineffective against the two worst Governments of our time and he has let the Labour party get taken over by a bunch of Left-Wing extremists - He has to go and sanity has to be restored to the Labour party to even stand a chance of pulling this Country out of the hole its in. The Conservatives have thrown their weight behind Johnson and closed ranks, they are on election footing and he is the most electable candidate they have and they know it.

 

Its genuinely scary to think where the Country is going to go in the next 5 years under hard Conservative rule after the lows Parliament has stooped in the past few months.

Sadly agree with most of this but they aren't left-wing extremists, and to be honest I think extremists should go with traitor etc in the words that purposefully incite hatred.

[String fellow]

Whilst Labour MPs have today been critical of what BJ said yesterday in Parliament, let's not forget that some of the things they said weren't that clever. For example, one of them accused him of burning £50 notes in front of homeless people when he was a student, which was a ridiculous allegation. Another, from Hull, kept pointing his finger angrily at BJ whilst berating the PM over his refusal to apologise at the prorogation attempt. This finger pointing reminded me of those awful IS people. If Labour MPs want to claim the moral high ground in this debate, they need to up their game.  

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, String fellow said:

Whilst Labour MPs have today been critical of what BJ said yesterday in Parliament, let's not forget that some of the things they said weren't that clever. For example, one of them accused him of burning £50 notes in front of homeless people when he was a student, which was a ridiculous allegation. Another, from Hull, kept pointing his finger angrily at BJ whilst berating the PM over his refusal to apologise at the prorogation attempt. This finger pointing reminded me of those awful IS people. If Labour MPs want to claim the moral high ground in this debate, they need to up their game.  

 

You're... you're joking about that right?

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Dames said:

No matter what you think of Boris Johnson and how awfully he behaved yesterday - I fully believe that performance has won him the next general election, potentially by a landslide.

 

Corbyn has been ineffective against the two worst Governments of our time and he has let the Labour party get taken over by a bunch of Left-Wing extremists - He has to go and sanity has to be restored to the Labour party to even stand a chance of pulling this Country out of the hole its in. The Conservatives have thrown their weight behind Johnson and closed ranks, they are on election footing and he is the most electable candidate they have and they know it.

 

Its genuinely scary to think where the Country is going to go in the next 5 years under hard Conservative rule after the lows Parliament has stooped in the past few months.

 

I share your fears about 5 years under a Johnson majority govt - and your negative opinions of Corbyn & Labour's often chaotic performance.

 

I'm not so sure that Johnson has got the next election in the bag, never mind a landslide, for various reasons:

- It's still unclear what Farage will do at an election, particularly if Brexit doesn't happen by 31/10. BJ is saying he'd do no pact with Farage. That might not be true or there might be an informal understanding as to who would focus on which seats....but, unless there is a clear pact, there's every chance of a split in the Leave vote, meaning that they miss out on some Labour seats they might otherwise have gained.

- Particularly after losing Ruth Davidson, it's likely that the Tories will lose seats to the SNP in Scotland

- It's also likely that they'll lose seats to the Lib Dems in SE and SW England....just a few or a lot, who knows?

- While Johnson's rhetoric will fire up Hard Brexiteers to vote, it will also fire up Hard Remainers, and may alienate a few moderate Tories who don't like all the aggro

- It's still unclear what will happen with the 21 Tory MPs expelled from the party; a few are standing down, but others might stand again as independents, potentially costing the Tories seats....& other previously loyal MPs (Crabb, Morgan) are criticising BJ

- While BJ is able to fire up his base, he's also well capable of alienating masses of people by gaffes, lies & outrageous conduct....for starters, this potential corruption case with the donation to his American ladyfriend could blow up in his face

- Will tactical voting happen to a large extent between opposition parties? The high stakes and polarised politics suggest that it might

 

Very likely that the Tories will win Labour seats - and not just in the North/Midlands; 2017 Lab voters switching to LDs could hand more Lab seats to the Tories in the South....but will those gains be balanced by losses elsewhere?

 

Still pretty short odds on another hung parliament, I think (though with fewer Labour MPs & more LD/SNP). Where the hell that would leave us, God knows....

[Dames]

33 minutes ago, bmt said:

Sadly agree with most of this but they aren't left-wing extremists, and to be honest I think extremists should go with traitor etc in the words that purposefully incite hatred.

They are left wing extremists. Momentum and its followers have been systematically trying too and successfully removing anyone from a position of power in the Labour party that doesn't agree with their views. They've also driven away many more moderate members/voters with their cult like mentality. I'm a Labour voter myself but the Labour Conference was nothing short of a travesty, from the policies to the power plays and the constant hero worship of Corbyn. It was cringe inducing as well as scary. For all the bluster on twitter from Momentum about how much of a 'dictator' Johnson is they are completely hypocritical when it comes to Corbyn. Anyone that questions 'The Leader' has to face attempts to remove them from position or party.

 

 

[bovril]

I realise this comes across as me also being tribal, but from everything I've read it doesn't seem like the Met police and British counter-terrorism currently believe that "both sides are as bad as each other".

Edited 26 September 2019 by bovril

[Jon the Hat]

19 hours ago, HappyHamza said:

Nobody was aware of a deal being involved despite all the brexiteers spending the entirety of the referendum campaign talking about getting the easiest deal in history?

Do you understand that the "deal" is a transition arrangement until our future relationship is resolved?  We have barely even started on the future bit!  

[bmt]

15 minutes ago, Dames said:

They are left wing extremists. Momentum and its followers have been systematically trying too and successfully removing anyone from a position of power in the Labour party that doesn't agree with their views. They've also driven away many more moderate members/voters with their cult like mentality. I'm a Labour voter myself but the Labour Conference was nothing short of a travesty, from the policies to the power plays and the constant hero worship of Corbyn. It was cringe inducing as well as scary. For all the bluster on twitter from Momentum about how much of a 'dictator' Johnson is they are completely hypocritical when it comes to Corbyn. Anyone that questions 'The Leader' has to face attempts to remove them from position or party.

 

 

Sorry think I misinterpreted the comment. I thought they were talking about the MPs and cabinet who often get described as extremist but are not. 

 

I am on the left of the party but like it to be a broad church.

[WigstonWanderer]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Do you understand that the "deal" is a transition arrangement until our future relationship is resolved?  We have barely even started on the future bit!  

Yes indeed. Endless more years of this crap, and all to get to a position where the country is poorer.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Dames said:

No matter what you think of Boris Johnson and how awfully he behaved yesterday - I fully believe that performance has won him the next general election, potentially by a landslide.

 

Corbyn has been ineffective against the two worst Governments of our time and he has let the Labour party get taken over by a bunch of Left-Wing extremists - He has to go and sanity has to be restored to the Labour party to even stand a chance of pulling this Country out of the hole its in. The Conservatives have thrown their weight behind Johnson and closed ranks, they are on election footing and he is the most electable candidate they have and they know it.

 

Its genuinely scary to think where the Country is going to go in the next 5 years under hard Conservative rule after the lows Parliament has stooped in the past few months.

I think you are correct, he will win the inevitable election quite comfortably, although not with a landslide.  He will get the part of the country who don't usually vote to do so, and so the actual views of the people will be heard for a change instead of the more liberal who more usually vote.  This could be uncomfortable for some, however you are missing the point that Boris is a centrist, not in any way to the right of the party.  Yes he would deliver Brexit, which will be fine with another now inevitable 6 months of preparation for no deal transition.  We will probably end up with a better trading relationship in the long run this way.  All his other policies though are pretty reasonable imo, and about a million miles better for the country than anything Corbyn and McDonnell have in their ****ed up brains.

[Jon the Hat]

Pretty pathetic rejecting a 3 day recess for the Conservative Party conference when Labour just held theirs.  I feel sorry for the hoteliers and bars and restaurants of Manchester who will no doubt lose Millions.

[StanSP]

2 hours ago, String fellow said:

Whilst Labour MPs have today been critical of what BJ said yesterday in Parliament, let's not forget that some of the things they said weren't that clever. For example, one of them accused him of burning £50 notes in front of homeless people when he was a student, which was a ridiculous allegation. Another, from Hull, kept pointing his finger angrily at BJ whilst berating the PM over his refusal to apologise at the prorogation attempt. This finger pointing reminded me of those awful IS people. If Labour MPs want to claim the moral high ground in this debate, they need to up their game.  

Wait, what? 

 

You match up finger pointing with beheading? 

 

I don't know where you're able to get it fixed but your moral compass is fvcked mate. 

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, StanSP said:

Wait, what? 

 

You match up finger pointing with beheading? 

 

I don't know where you're able to get it fixed but your moral compass is fvcked mate. 

That was a bit Random wasn't it.

[Finnaldo]

31 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think you are correct, he will win the inevitable election quite comfortably, although not with a landslide.  He will get the part of the country who don't usually vote to do so, and so the actual views of the people will be heard for a change instead of the more liberal who more usually vote.  This could be uncomfortable for some, however you are missing the point that Boris is a centrist, not in any way to the right of the party.  Yes he would deliver Brexit, which will be fine with another now inevitable 6 months of preparation for no deal transition.  We will probably end up with a better trading relationship in the long run this way.  All his other policies though are pretty reasonable imo, and about a million miles better for the country than anything Corbyn and McDonnell have in their ****ed up brains.

 

Lib Dems are centrist. Johnson is an opportunist using the rise of populism to push himself into power and it’s a very sad indictment he’s the current Prime Minister and probably would win the election, because the vote he’ll gather, as you say, are people who don’t usually vote, as well as those who do, who’ll be voting from a position of bitter hatred than anything particularly substantial. 

 

I don’t blame people for thinking like that. It’s the new face of politics.