Guest Kopfkino Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 16 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Here are his precise words: "We need to sort Brexit. I've voted 9 times in Parliament for a deal to do that". So, he didn't claim to have "voted for Brexit", Matt, and he didn't claim to have voted for a specific deal agreed by the EU, Kopf. His words "to do that" clearly refer back to "sort Brexit". So he claimed to have "voted 9 times.....for a deal to [sort Brexit]" I'd also like to enthusiastically express my support for a deal to sort Brexit - preferably by burying it under 500m tons of landfill. Slippery expression by Miliband, I know, but not a lie (unless he didn't do it 9 times) - and if you're expecting politicians not to be slippery, you'll be disappointed. I can't be arsed to search for leaflets of Tory candidates, but I bet that if I did, we'd find that some of those in Remain-voting constituencies would have a subtly different message from those in Leave seats. A customs union Brexit or a Norway-style Brexit never existed as actual deals so he didn't vote for a deal at all. A deal usually requires two or more sides to agree to a proposal. Neither the UK nor the EU agreed to either ideas so there was not a deal and therefore Ed Miliband didn't vote for a deal.
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 9 minutes ago, MattP said: Oh come off it, this is absolutely ridiculous. If a Tory was engaging in this sort of misrepresentation you would (quite rightly as well) be calling them out for it. He is trying to manipulate people in his own leave constituency to think he's tried to get Brexit done, the facts are that he simply hasn't. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest he has. I don't deny that he's trying to manipulate perceptions. Election leaflets of all parties and all candidates tend to do that. It's their aim. No point pursuing this argument further but he did vote to try to get Brexit done/sorted. @Kopfkino has a fair point that he didn't do as much as Kinnock to actively solicit a compromise deal in parliament. But he did vote for alternative forms of Brexit to the extent that most other MPs did - and not purely for "election optics" as Kopf suggests. I presume that if May/Johnson had invited him to negotiate/vote for a Soft Brexit deal, he'd have done so.
davieG Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 Leicestershire currently looks blue on the parliamentary political map with Tory MPs returned in all seven of its constituencies in 2017. Leicester is red with Labour holding its three seats going into the next election. All the sitting MPs can expect to face a challenge so a number of parties are well advanced in their planning. These are the candidates we know will be on the ballot paper next time round. Any prospective parliamentary candidates who have been selected but do not appear on the list should email politics correspondent Dan Martin - [email protected] - to be included Bosworth (Conservative majority 18,351) Luke Evans – Conservative (incumbent David Tredinnick is retiring) Mick Gregg - Green Rick Middlleton -Labour Michael Mullaney – Liberal Democrats Charnwood (Conservative majority 16,341) Ed Argar – Conservative (incumbent) Gary Godden - Labour Laurie Needham – Green Kate Tipton – Liberal Democrat Harborough (Conservative majority 12,749) Zuffar Haq – Liberal Democrat Celia Hibbert - Labour Robin Lambert - Independent Neil O’Brien – Conservative (incumbent) Darren Woodiwiss - Green Leicester East (2017 Labour majority 22,428) Tara Baldwin - Brexit Party Bhupen Dave - Conservative Nitesh Dave – Liberal Democrat Sanjay Gogia - Independent Melanie Wakley - Green Claudia Webbe - Labour Leicester South (Labour majority 26,261) Jon Ashworth - Labour (incumbent) Chris Coghlan - Liberal Democrat Mags Lewis - Green Natalie Neale - Conservative James Potter - Brexit Party Leicester West (Labour majority 11,060) Ian Bradwell - Liberal Democrat Jack Collier – Brexit Party Ani Goddard - Green Liz Kendall - Labour (incumbent) Amanda Wright - Conservative Loughborough (Conservative majority 4,269) Stuart Brady – Labour Jane Hunt - Conservative Ian Sharpe - Liberal Democrat Queenie Tea - Independent Wesley Walton - Green North West Leicestershire (Conservative majority 13,286) Carl Benfield - Green Andrew Bridgen – Conservative (incumbent) Dr Terri Eynon - Labour Grahame Hudson - Liberal Democrat Dan Liddicott - Libertarian Party Edward Nudd - Independent South Leicestershire (Conservative majority 18,731) Alberto Costa – Conservative (incumbent) Nick Cox - Green Phil Knowles – Liberal Democrat Tristan Koriya - Labour Rutland and Melton (Conservative majority 23,104) Alicia Kearns - Conservative Marietta king - UKIP James McQuillan - Green Andy Thomas - Labour Anthony Watchorn - Independent (deceased) Carol Weaver - Liberal Democrat
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 8 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: A customs union Brexit or a Norway-style Brexit never existed as actual deals so he didn't vote for a deal at all. A deal usually requires two or more sides to agree to a proposal. Neither the UK nor the EU agreed to either ideas so there was not a deal and therefore Ed Miliband didn't vote for a deal. So, before we signed Tielemans, I could not have expressed my support for that "(potential) transfer deal"? I'd have had to refer to a "proposal" or "plan"? That would be rather pedantic use of language, wouldn't it? A "deal" is generally understood to sometimes be (literally) a "potential deal" that might or might happen. Otherwise, the question "Is the deal on or off?" could never exist, as by your definition a deal would always have already happened.... Enough already!
Jon the Hat Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 I see the Liberal Democrats are at it again posting fake newspapers through the door in various constituencies. It's the original fake news. So seeing as we seem to be heading for a Trory majority I take it the Labourites on here will expect Corbyn to finally take the hint and resign as leader? Hugley important we have a proper opposition in the coming years; so much important legislation will be required, not least the future relationship with the EU, and important trade deals.
Jon the Hat Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: So, before we signed Tielemans, I could not have expressed my support for that "(potential) transfer deal"? I'd have had to refer to a "proposal" or "plan"? That would be rather pedantic use of language, wouldn't it? A "deal" is generally understood to sometimes be (literally) a "potential deal" that might or might happen. Otherwise, the question "Is the deal on or off?" could never exist, as by your definition a deal would always have already happened.... Enough already! Your argument would be fine if not for the fact that Milliband among others have been wantonly doing everything they can to frustrate the result of the referendum since the result was announced. To now claim to be on the side of "sorting" Brexit is just utter nonsense and you know it.
David Guiza Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 28 minutes ago, davieG said: Loughborough (Conservative majority 4,269) Stuart Brady – Labour Jane Hunt - Conservative Ian Sharpe - Liberal Democrat Queenie Tea - Independent Wesley Walton - Green That was a Google search that I almost instantly regret...
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 14 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Your argument would be fine if not for the fact that Milliband among others have been wantonly doing everything they can to frustrate the result of the referendum since the result was announced. To now claim to be on the side of "sorting" Brexit is just utter nonsense and you know it. No. They've been using their power as democratically elected representatives to frustrate (or change) the Tory interpretation of the referendum result. There are multiple interpretations of "Leave the EU". Likewise, the Tories have spent those years using their power as democratically elected representatives to push for their interpretation, to compromise with rebels on their own side and (under May) with the DUP, while excluding alternative interpretations. Unless you somehow have proof that Miliband supported alternative versions of Brexit in the indicative votes but would have opposed them if they'd been agreed deals, then it is not nonsense - and you should know that.
Jimothy Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 34 minutes ago, davieG said: Leicestershire currently looks blue on the parliamentary political map with Tory MPs returned in all seven of its constituencies in 2017. Leicester is red with Labour holding its three seats going into the next election. All the sitting MPs can expect to face a challenge so a number of parties are well advanced in their planning. These are the candidates we know will be on the ballot paper next time round. Loughborough (Conservative majority 4,269) Stuart Brady – Labour Jane Hunt - Conservative Ian Sharpe - Liberal Democrat Queenie Tea - Independent Wesley Walton - Green Every candidate in Loughborough is new, having not stood before. Tory majority reduced by half last time, so will be interesting if the all new selections have an effect. I'm sure it'll be blue again, but certainly the closet seat in county.
Jimothy Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 41 minutes ago, davieG said: Leicester East (2017 Labour majority 22,428) Tara Baldwin - Brexit Party Bhupen Dave - Conservative Nitesh Dave – Liberal Democrat Sanjay Gogia - Independent Melanie Wakley - Green Claudia Webbe - Labour Are the Tory and Lib Dem candidates related?
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 12 minutes ago, Facecloth said: Are the Tory and Lib Dem candidates related? I heard their brother Call Me Dave is standing in Witney.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: So, before we signed Tielemans, I could not have expressed my support for that "(potential) transfer deal"? I'd have had to refer to a "proposal" or "plan"? That would be rather pedantic use of language, wouldn't it? A "deal" is generally understood to sometimes be (literally) a "potential deal" that might or might happen. Otherwise, the question "Is the deal on or off?" could never exist, as by your definition a deal would always have already happened.... Enough already! If you expressed support for us to come to an agreement to sign Tielemans for £25m and then the deal came back as £32m and you rejected it, then it'd be absurd to say you supported a deal for Tielemans. You supported something that didn't exist and rejected what did exist. And it is exactly what happened when Boris initially sent his proposals to the EU and then when people referred to it as the 'Boris deal' you'd hear "for it to be a deal the EU has to agree, they're just proposals".
Jon the Hat Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I heard their brother Call Me Dave is standing in Witney. Alright Dave is in the Brexit party.
Voll Blau Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 If the Beeb agree to this then their editorial integrity is fvcking toast. And if I were Andrew Neil, I'd resign in protest.
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 7 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: If you expressed support for us to come to an agreement to sign Tielemans for £25m and then the deal came back as £32m and you rejected it, then it'd be absurd to say you supported a deal for Tielemans. You supported something that didn't exist and rejected what did exist. And it is exactly what happened when Boris initially sent his proposals to the EU and then when people referred to it as the 'Boris deal' you'd hear "for it to be a deal the EU has to agree, they're just proposals". Hypothetically, it would be a perfectly reasonable stance to say: "I supported us doing a deal for Tielemans at £25m, but £32m is too much. If that was the only deal Monaco would do, we should have bought someone else". That's what Miliband did. Having been (I presume) a Remainer, he was prepared to vote "to sort Brexit" or for a Brexit deal - but not the one on offer from the Tory Govt. Depends whether you can refer to a potential deal as "a deal". I think you can. You seem to disagree. So, presumably to you the question "is the deal on or off?" is a logical impossibility. You'd have to ask "Is the proposal now a deal?" or similar..... I'm out of this circular pedantry!
The Horse's Mouth Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 I don't get why Boris is being such a woofter, surely he cant be as dismantled as Corbs was?
UpTheLeagueFox Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 1 hour ago, davieG said: Leicester East (2017 Labour majority 22,428) Tara Baldwin - Brexit Party Bhupen Dave - Conservative Nitesh Dave – Liberal Democrat Sanjay Gogia - Independent Melanie Wakley - Green Claudia Webbe - Labour 1 hour ago, Facecloth said: Are the Tory and Lib Dem candidates related? Dave is not their actual surnames. It's "Rodney."
Guest MattP Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 1 hour ago, Facecloth said: Every candidate in Loughborough is new, having not stood before. Tory majority reduced by half last time, so will be interesting if the all new selections have an effect. I'm sure it'll be blue again, but certainly the closet seat in county. No certainty at all about that if internal polling in Leicester East is accurate.
Alf Bentley Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 27 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said: I don't get why Boris is being such a woofter, surely he cant be as dismantled as Corbs was? If he's trying to avoid a Neil interview, it will be precisely because he knows that he could be dismantled as Corbyn apparently was. Neil is a brutally good interviewer capable of exposing anyone's weaknesses, inconsistency or dishonesty. As for "why", why do teams take the ball into the corner flag late in a close match that they're winning? To avoid unnecessary risk of the opposition getting a chance to change the result of the match. Risking a public dismantling by Neil is like a team risking the opposition getting possession and scoring a winner/equaliser. But it should be the job of the BBC to make sure there's a level playing-field - that all leaders have the same risk of being dismantled. (pssst! I'm sure no unpleasantness was intended but think "woofter" is seen as a homophobic term & might bring the mods down on your head. )
The Horse's Mouth Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: If he's trying to avoid a Neil interview, it will be precisely because he knows that he could be dismantled as Corbyn apparently was. Neil is a brutally good interviewer capable of exposing anyone's weaknesses, inconsistency or dishonesty. As for "why", why do teams take the ball into the corner flag late in a close match that they're winning? To avoid unnecessary risk of the opposition getting a chance to change the result of the match. Risking a public dismantling by Neil is like a team risking the opposition getting possession and scoring a winner/equaliser. But it should be the job of the BBC to make sure there's a level playing-field - that all leaders have the same risk of being dismantled. (pssst! I'm sure no unpleasantness was intended but think "woofter" is seen as a homophobic term & might bring the mods down on your head. ) For the base hes trying to win and the image hes trying to set, it seems like he'll do more damage not doing it than doing it. Only thing I can see working in his favour is theres still 2 weeks or so to go so a good chance its forgotten by then.
Lionator Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 22 hours ago, MattP said: If he were to turn it down they should actually do that. It would be completely unacceptable for every leader to be scrutinised by Neil except the Prime Minister - I'll make a promise here, if he doesn't do it. I won't vote for him. A coward can't get my vote to lead the country. Fair play if you do stick to this, it's looking increasingly more likely that he wont agree to the interview.
Lionator Posted 28 November 2019 Posted 28 November 2019 3 hours ago, davieG said: Leicester East (2017 Labour majority 22,428) Tara Baldwin - Brexit Party Bhupen Dave - Conservative Nitesh Dave – Liberal Democrat Sanjay Gogia - Independent Melanie Wakley - Green Claudia Webbe - Labour There were actually several great local Labour candidates who would've been a great replacement for the dreadful Mr. Vaz however Claudia Webbe, a Corbyn ally got jettisoned into the position (she did grow up in Leicester but as far as I'm aware has very little link to the city in her adult life).
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