Tactics Talk:

[davieG]

Kasper didn't take advantage of it and didn't get the ball out to them to counter attack.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

I’m not convinced by this tactic of three

If you have no one up then the opposition leave one back. 

if you leave one man up the opposition have two back to cover. 

hence you are one man ahead in the box by leaving one up top 

 

if you leave two up top then the opposition will surely leave three back - hence you are still one man better off in the box 

 

we left three up and they decided that three to cover was enough - hence we are no better off in our box , man for man, than if we left one up????

 

I assume clearing out the box is supposed to make it easier for kasper to come and punch - forgive me but I see a huge issue there !

 

and more importantly, when the corner comes in and is half cleared , the three guys just hang around on the half way line !!!! FFS, at least two of them, need to sprint back to help out. It was like we developed the tactic but didn’t have time to work out what happens after the corner has come in !

 

if we are going to do this, then please let’s have two up and not three - the third player can take the front post or the edge of the box 

It becomes an issue in second phases for sure. I went through it before and like you I pointed out that it’s still man for man.  
 

It can leave you light handed on the ‘second ball’ and give a bit room on the second cross if the first isn’t cleared well enough - Jansson’s header exposed this 

[sacreblueits442]

7 hours ago, CloudFox said:

Interesting! That reminds me a bit of under Ranieri (or was it Sven?), when we were told we kept two forwards up because having them all back actually didn't make a tangible difference to defending the set piece. It did, however, provide an outlet and mean the opposition was less willing to commit bodies forward in case we broke on them.

....quite a big change from everything he has ever done in respect of defending, and that could only have come from outside of his group!!!

Whoever has got in his ear, we would like to see more of these innovations as there are things that needs to be addressed, which he (Rodgers) fails to understand. It is not about injuries or unavailability he has just never seen it or understood what needed to be done.

  I wonder what was the real reason for Brown to come down for a visit, Rodgers new attitude to defending corners has evolved overnight.

[He aint bald]

Always hate seeing JV on the near post. A team needs an option to break or pick up stray balls. 

Commentry said that we left 3 up for some corners. Unfortuantly  my laptop is small so I couldnt see the half way line to know who and how many defenders they occupied. 

looked like a 7 aside game in our box though

Edited 21 March 2022 by He aint bald
too many words

[sacreblueits442]

6 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I’m not convinced by this tactic of three

If you have no one up then the opposition leave one back. 

if you leave one man up the opposition have two back to cover. 

hence you are one man ahead in the box by leaving one up top 

 

if you leave two up top then the opposition will surely leave three back - hence you are still one man better off in the box 

 

we left three up and they decided that three to cover was enough - hence we are no better off in our box , man for man, than if we left one up????

 

I assume clearing out the box is supposed to make it easier for kasper to come and punch - forgive me but I see a huge issue there !

 

and more importantly, when the corner comes in and is half cleared , the three guys just hang around on the half way line !!!! FFS, at least two of them, need to sprint back to help out. It was like we developed the tactic but didn’t have time to work out what happens after the corner has come in !

 

if we are going to do this, then please let’s have two up and not three - the third player can take the front post or the edge of the box 

...it is noticeable previously, that with all the numbers we have in the box we are just as hopeless at defending!!!

Having the players out of the box stops us getting in each others way, there are too many incidents where we are all marking space and the oppositions is not picked up. Taking the extra players out of the box stops the oppositions "blockers" from preventing our defenders being able to compete at corners, and set pieces. We need one of our higher player to drop half way, the opposition will either drop if he picks it up, or they hold their positions and are vulnerable to the ball over the top.

[Stadt]

 

 

 

 

We've been winning recently but I'm concerned that we're not creating very much still. Against Palace both goals were incredibly well taken. True of Brentford H & Rennes too.. We struggle to create much centrally, as yesterday demonstrated we need KDH in more influential central positions instead of playing as a quasi-winger.

 

Our xG for isn't looking particularly well whilst the xGA is still a bit of concern. 

 

2022-01-19	19:30	Matchweek 17	Wed	Home	L	2	3	Tottenham	1.5	3.7	48	31,986	Kasper Schmeichel	3-5-2	Jonathan Moss	Match Report
2022-01-23	14:00	Matchweek 23	Sun	Home	D	1	1	Brighton	2.2	1.0	43	31,231	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Martin Atkinson	Match Report
2022-02-10	19:45	Matchweek 24	Thu	Away	L	0	2	Liverpool	0.3	2.6	37	53,050	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Chris Kavanagh	Match Report
2022-02-13	16:30	Matchweek 25	Sun	Home	D	2	2	West Ham	1.3	0.6	56	32,061	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Michael Oliver	Match Report
2022-02-20	16:30	Matchweek 26	Sun	Away	L	1	2	Wolves	1.6	0.6	65	31,587	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Craig Pawson	Match Report
2022-03-01	19:45	Matchweek 22	Tue	Away	W	2	0	Burnley	1.5	1.0	55	17,825	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Chris Kavanagh	Match Report
2022-03-05	12:30	Matchweek 28	Sat	Home	W	1	0	Leeds United	0.5	1.9	50	32,236	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	David Coote	Match Report
Date	Time	Round	Day	Venue	Result	GF	GA	Opponent	xG	xGA	Poss	Attendance	Captain	Formation	Referee	Match Report	Notes
2022-03-13	16:30	Matchweek 29	Sun	Away	L	0	2	Arsenal	0.3	2.3	54	60,111	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Anthony Taylor	Match Report
2022-03-20	14:00	Matchweek 30	Sun	Home	W	2	1	Brentford	1.3	1.3	53	31,830	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Darren England	Match Report
2022-04-02	17:30	Matchweek 31	Sat	Away	D	1	1	Manchester Utd	0.9	1.4	46	73,444	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Andre Marriner	Match Report
2022-04-10	14:00	Matchweek 32	Sun	Home	W	2	1	Crystal Palace	1.0	1.3	50		Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Robert Jones	Match Report

 

 

With the attacking talent in the squad (far less injury hit than the defence) we should be capable of creating better chances, One-on-ones, cut backs, tap ins than rather than relying on the 1 in 10, 1 in 20 efforts like we are currently.

 

 

Edited 11 April 2022 by Stadt

[coolhandfox]

30 minutes ago, Stadt said:

 

 

 

 

We've been winning recently but I'm concerned that we're not creating very much still. Against Palace both goals were incredibly well taken. True of Brentford H & Rennes too.. We struggle to create much centrally, as yesterday demonstrated we need KDH in more influential central positions instead of playing as a quasi-winger.

 

Our xG for isn't looking particularly well whilst the xGA is still a bit of concern. 

 

2022-01-19	19:30	Matchweek 17	Wed	Home	L	2	3	Tottenham	1.5	3.7	48	31,986	Kasper Schmeichel	3-5-2	Jonathan Moss	Match Report
2022-01-23	14:00	Matchweek 23	Sun	Home	D	1	1	Brighton	2.2	1.0	43	31,231	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Martin Atkinson	Match Report
2022-02-10	19:45	Matchweek 24	Thu	Away	L	0	2	Liverpool	0.3	2.6	37	53,050	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Chris Kavanagh	Match Report
2022-02-13	16:30	Matchweek 25	Sun	Home	D	2	2	West Ham	1.3	0.6	56	32,061	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Michael Oliver	Match Report
2022-02-20	16:30	Matchweek 26	Sun	Away	L	1	2	Wolves	1.6	0.6	65	31,587	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Craig Pawson	Match Report
2022-03-01	19:45	Matchweek 22	Tue	Away	W	2	0	Burnley	1.5	1.0	55	17,825	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Chris Kavanagh	Match Report
2022-03-05	12:30	Matchweek 28	Sat	Home	W	1	0	Leeds United	0.5	1.9	50	32,236	Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	David Coote	Match Report
Date	Time	Round	Day	Venue	Result	GF	GA	Opponent	xG	xGA	Poss	Attendance	Captain	Formation	Referee	Match Report	Notes
2022-03-13	16:30	Matchweek 29	Sun	Away	L	0	2	Arsenal	0.3	2.3	54	60,111	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Anthony Taylor	Match Report
2022-03-20	14:00	Matchweek 30	Sun	Home	W	2	1	Brentford	1.3	1.3	53	31,830	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Darren England	Match Report
2022-04-02	17:30	Matchweek 31	Sat	Away	D	1	1	Manchester Utd	0.9	1.4	46	73,444	Kasper Schmeichel	4-2-3-1	Andre Marriner	Match Report
2022-04-10	14:00	Matchweek 32	Sun	Home	W	2	1	Crystal Palace	1.0	1.3	50		Kasper Schmeichel	4-3-3	Robert Jones	Match Report

 

 

With the attacking talent in the squad (far less injury hit than the defence) we should be capable of creating better chances, One-on-ones, cut backs, tap ins than what we're doing.

I think we have become and bit more pragmatic, playing a formation that makes us more solid and hard to beat. We are missing Maddison at 10 for me, and his effectiveness is reduced playing wide right.  

 

The biggest issue is that whoever is playing at 9 is isolated, as wingers generally stay wide, and our midfield doesn't get close enough to them.

 

Making it a tight affair and relying on your quality players to produce a bit of magic to win you a game is better than leaking goals and creating lots of chances. 

 

However, we have just won 4 and drawn 1 of the last 6; before that, we had no win in 5, including 3 losses. Weren't you more concerned 6 games ago? 

 

 

[Keiriel]

33 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

I think we have become and bit more pragmatic, playing a formation that makes us more solid and hard to beat. We are missing Maddison at 10 for me, and his effectiveness is reduced playing wide right.  

 

The biggest issue is that whoever is playing at 9 is isolated, as wingers generally stay wide, and our midfield doesn't get close enough to them.

 

Making it a tight affair and relying on your quality players to produce a bit of magic to win you a game is better than leaking goals and creating lots of chances. 

 

However, we have just won 4 and drawn 1 of the last 6; before that, we had no win in 5, including 3 losses. Weren't you more concerned 6 games ago? 

 

 

This might very well be it. It makes me think back to when Tuchel first took charge of Chelsea; they were getting battered under Lampard and so his first objective was to make them hard to beat. That we're beginning to see the kind of defensive solidity that we're accustomed to is a positive sign and I'm certain the goals will soon come as confidence and swagger grows within the team.

[Shane]

4 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

I think we have become and bit more pragmatic, playing a formation that makes us more solid and hard to beat. We are missing Maddison at 10 for me, and his effectiveness is reduced playing wide right.  

 

The biggest issue is that whoever is playing at 9 is isolated, as wingers generally stay wide, and our midfield doesn't get close enough to them.

 

Making it a tight affair and relying on your quality players to produce a bit of magic to win you a game is better than leaking goals and creating lots of chances. 

 

However, we have just won 4 and drawn 1 of the last 6; before that, we had no win in 5, including 3 losses. Weren't you more concerned 6 games ago? 

 

 

I think its also a work in progress. We haven’t been playing this way for very long. 
 

The players we are linked with (Madueke / De Ketelaere) would fit perfectly into this new system and take our attack to the next level. So I don’t think goals will be an issue after we sign some reinforcements. 

 

One issue however, could be the loss of Mendy in the summer. He plays a major role in linking the play and keeping hold of the ball. I don’t see a long term future for this system without Mendy, unless Wilf improves his passing or Soumare finally steps up.
 

Which is a shame because i’m enjoying the football we’re playing at the moment and you can see the potential this new system has. 

[fuchsntf]

 

Trying to get a loyal honest guard dog to even think about its his job also to herd his charges..

 

Or a Leicester winger to run back & defend..

 

[FLAN]

I like this tactic of making space in the box for defensive corners. What I can’t understand is why we line the 3 players up in a line and don’t ask one of them to drop a bit deeper for the ball coming out of the box?

[Stadt]

20 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

I think we have become and bit more pragmatic, playing a formation that makes us more solid and hard to beat. We are missing Maddison at 10 for me, and his effectiveness is reduced playing wide right.  

 

The biggest issue is that whoever is playing at 9 is isolated, as wingers generally stay wide, and our midfield doesn't get close enough to them.

 

Making it a tight affair and relying on your quality players to produce a bit of magic to win you a game is better than leaking goals and creating lots of chances. 

 

However, we have just won 4 and drawn 1 of the last 6; before that, we had no win in 5, including 3 losses. Weren't you more concerned 6 games ago? 

 

 

I was more concerned when we were losing but I don’t think much has changed. The underlying stats are broadly similar and we’re benefiting from positive variance at the moment - it happens.

 

I’d like to see KDH on the right of the midfield three as I think it’d curb his natural inclination to go wide - then he’d hopefully get closer to the striker instead, leaving whoever is up top less isolated 

[coolhandfox]

4 hours ago, Stadt said:

I was more concerned when we were losing but I don’t think much has changed. The underlying stats are broadly similar and we’re benefiting from positive variance at the moment - it happens.

 

I’d like to see KDH on the right of the midfield three as I think it’d curb his natural inclination to go wide - then he’d hopefully get closer to the striker instead, leaving whoever is up top less isolated 

Depending on how you view it, maybe from a statistical point of view, not much has changed. 

 

I tend to rely on the eyeball test rather than a statistical approach.

But I see a team that looks more structured defensively and is pressing more effectively, and appears to have come to terms with dealing with set-pieces.  

 

I agree we are far from our fluid best, but I think that general down to adapting to a more pragmatic shape and sacrificing an attacking position (a number 10) for a more solid midfield 3. 

 

Yes, we need to provide more support to the forward player, but that will come as players become more comfortable with the system and understand it better. 

 

Positive results breed confidence. The more confidence they get, the more fluid our play will become. 

[Stadt]

3 hours ago, coolhandfox said:

Depending on how you view it, maybe from a statistical point of view, not much has changed. 

 

I tend to rely on the eyeball test rather than a statistical approach.

But I see a team that looks more structured defensively and is pressing more effectively, and appears to have come to terms with dealing with set-pieces.  

 

I agree we are far from our fluid best, but I think that general down to adapting to a more pragmatic shape and sacrificing an attacking position (a number 10) for a more solid midfield 3. 

 

Yes, we need to provide more support to the forward player, but that will come as players become more comfortable with the system and understand it better. 

 

Positive results breed confidence. The more confidence they get, the more fluid our play will become. 

I agree we've pressed a bit better tbf.

 

That's absolutely fine and marrying stats/anlaytics with what's actually happening is important but I know for a fact I really struggle to be that objective when watching us play, I'm not suggesting you can't be but as fans we're naturally optimistic.

 

5 games isn't that great a sample size and xG is more useful over a greater length of time but I took our xG for and xGA averages over the last 5, 10 and 15 league games and it looks as though we're riding our luck atm. 

 

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, Stadt said:

I agree we've pressed a bit better tbf.

 

That's absolutely fine and marrying stats/anlaytics with what's actually happening is important but I know for a fact I really struggle to be that objective when watching us play, I'm not suggesting you can't be but as fans we're naturally optimistic.

 

5 games isn't that great a sample size and xG is more useful over a greater length of time but I took our xG for and xGA averages over the last 5, 10 and 15 league games and it looks as though we're riding our luck atm. 

 

Yes I agree it difficult.

 

I'm not saying we are playing well or brilliant, we just look a little more robust defensively, I don't have the same dread feeling every time the other team has a corner or has an attack.

 

Just think we are turning the corner.

 

But as well as being optimistic, people can also have a negative bias, it just very tough to be objective watching your own team.

 

  

 

 

Edited 12 April 2022 by coolhandfox

[sacreblueits442]

On 12/04/2022 at 14:30, coolhandfox said:

Depending on how you view it, maybe from a statistical point of view, not much has changed. 

 

I tend to rely on the eyeball test rather than a statistical approach.

But I see a team that looks more structured defensively and is pressing more effectively, and appears to have come to terms with dealing with set-pieces.  

 

I agree we are far from our fluid best, but I think that general down to adapting to a more pragmatic shape and sacrificing an attacking position (a number 10) for a more solid midfield 3. 

 

Yes, we need to provide more support to the forward player, but that will come as players become more comfortable with the system and understand it better. 

 

Positive results breed confidence. The more confidence they get, the more fluid our play will become. 

....on the other hand switching to a 4-2-3-1 playing a much higher line, allows us to be closer to the striker and win back balls higher up the pitch!!!

Just pushing up those 10-15 yards, negates the isolation of our lone striker, gets Maddison back in his preferred role, Barnes out on the left and as it is Europe Albrighton on the right. 

You can't not play Albrighton if you are in Europe, synonymous with our excursions abroad.

[J. James]

I feel much happier with our defence now and if as many posters are suggesting playing Castagne on the left is not ideal for Barnes' game then frankly thats tough,  l dont think we can afford to weaken the defence to accommodate him, he's simply not that special imo particularly as his defensive work is dire, defence must be top of the agenda especially with JV out and Barnes must adapt to that or sit out games with Lookman starting more regularly.

Thomas overlaps more than TC and seems to suit HB better so perhaps the answer is double subs on 60 mins when we are 2/3 goals up?

I just think sometimes we all get a bit hung up on playing our best individuals and not our best team.

 

[jerry]

31 minutes ago, J. James said:

I feel much happier with our defence now and if as many posters are suggesting playing Castagne on the left is not ideal for Barnes' game then frankly thats tough,  l dont think we can afford to weaken the defence to accommodate him, he's simply not that special imo particularly as his defensive work is dire, defence must be top of the agenda especially with JV out and Barnes must adapt to that or sit out games with Lookman starting more regularly.

Thomas overlaps more than TC and seems to suit HB better so perhaps the answer is double subs on 60 mins when we are 2/3 goals up?

I just think sometimes we all get a bit hung up on playing our best individuals and not our best team.

 

Without Vardy we seem to have to depend on our midfield to produce the goals. Hope I'm proved wrong but going a goal down then I can see p s v shutting up shop.

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....on the other hand switching to a 4-2-3-1 playing a much higher line, allows us to be closer to the striker and win back balls higher up the pitch!!!

Just pushing up those 10-15 yards, negates the isolation of our lone striker, gets Maddison back in his preferred role, Barnes out on the left and as it is Europe Albrighton on the right. 

You can't not play Albrighton if you are in Europe, synonymous with our excursions abroad.

Pretty sure it will be the same 11 that started the home game, with Jimmy in the 3 and Albrighton. 

 

Just can't see him switching back to the 4-2-3-1 when we have only 2 loses in about 10 games playing the 4-3-3. 

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

I saw this linked to a recent article in The Athletic -- on the "elbow back" and wonder if this is sort of what Rodgers was doing when he would put Justin as a third CB.

 

https://spacespacespaceletter.com/this-is-the-year-of-the-elbow-back/

 

 

[st albans fox]

Rodgers has wanted to play inverted full backs but injury keeps scuppering his plans 

 

I’m sure we spend most of pre seasons preparing for this and then end up screwed over once it starts because of injuries. We then revert to an existing play book which is comfortable for the opposition. 
 

with arsenal, Chelsea and Man U in our next four games, don’t be surprised if we just stick with what you saw in Saturday until GW 6

[stb1996]

Always thought this was the plan for last season before the Fofana injury. Line up with a 4 of Ricardo, Fofana, Evans, Justin which shifts to a back 3 for Ricardo to push down the right and Barnes the left. Relies on quick and competent defenders though so the injuries to both Fofana and Justin curtailed that and instead left us dropping deep to cover the ineptitude of Amartey/Soyuncu. Can see us returning to that system but with Castagne on the right as seen against Brentford; JJ was much deeper and I suspect that was intentional, leaving a hole for Barnes to slot in wide left. Personally think at home it would then make sense to drop Ndidi and play KDH and Tielemans in the middle

[Guest Col city fan]

Just do what I do on FM

Always use Gegenpress (whatever that is)

4-3-3 wide with a DM

’Control’ possession.

Make subs

Piece of piss this football management malarkey 

👍

[StriderHiryu]

6 hours ago, MarriedaLeicesterGirl said:

I saw this linked to a recent article in The Athletic -- on the "elbow back" and wonder if this is sort of what Rodgers was doing when he would put Justin as a third CB.

 

https://spacespacespaceletter.com/this-is-the-year-of-the-elbow-back/

 

 

Good article that! But with JJ specifically, he was making underlapping runs from his position, and not just acting as an outside full back. Before he had his long injury, he was revelling in that role!

 

Amartey was playing as the elbow back against Brentford.

 

 

Edited 11 August 2022 by StriderHiryu

[Matt]

Is there anywhere that provides data of passing statistics as in where the passes are being made, how much of it is positive, how much of it is sideways, mistakes made by passing around at the back etc.

 

Also is there anywhere that provides data and statistics on “action zones” - you often see them flash up in games on Sky but I’ve never been able to find them as a stat or break down of individual games.

 

I’ve been trying to find stuff for ages to no avail.

 

People for some unknown reason love this possession based football up, “it’s the way to play football”, “it’s the way the game should be played”, “sexy”, “pretty”, “attractive” football.

 

Its boring and shite.

 

I think if there was some data providing sideways passes, how effective (or ineffective as the case is imo) the possession and passes are, the area where the possession is, I think it’d be quite telling and show what a blot on the game it really is.

 

I’m not even talking about us per se, although I imagine it’d be pretty damning against us and we’d be one of the highest offenders for it and the negative way we us possession based football.

 

I mean in layman’s terms the simplistic way to look at it is we’re:

~6th in the table for possession (54.2% - a lot lower than I expected I must admit), 
 

~4th in the table for passes (1,608)

 

~19th in the table for shots (26)

 

We are 7th for goals scored but that says a lot more about chance conversion as opposed to chance creation and an exciting or entertaining brand of football.

 

That says quite a lot about all you need to know regardless of the stats and info that I’m requesting.
 

How is this a sustainable way of playing?

 

Edited 24 August 2022 by Matt