Coronavirus Thread

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Would only have been possible if implemented from the start.

 

Would only have been implementable from the start with a population with a history of dictatorship.

 

It's pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

Are the Koreas getting mixed up here (easy mistake to make tbh) or is it not known that around 50% of the current South Korean population (that is to say those under 40 years old) have known nothing but a fully functional democracy?

[Alf Bentley]

12 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

Would only have been possible if implemented from the start.

 

Would only have been implementable from the start with a population with a history of dictatorship.

 

It's pie in the sky, I'm afraid.

 

Hmmm! South Korea was pretty undemocratic a few decades back so that might be arguable at a stretch, but.....

 

- Germany has a history of dictatorship and has done pretty well

- Russia is arguably still a dictatorship, after a much longer dictatorship, and has done pretty badly

- Spain & Italy have a history of dictatorship and got swamped

- New Zealand has no history of dictatorship, and is another country held up as a role model for good practice

[Nod.E]

30 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Hmmm! South Korea was pretty undemocratic a few decades back so that might be arguable at a stretch, but.....

 

- Germany has a history of dictatorship and has done pretty well

- Russia is arguably still a dictatorship, after a much longer dictatorship, and has done pretty badly

- Spain & Italy have a history of dictatorship and got swamped

- New Zealand has no history of dictatorship, and is another country held up as a role model for good practice

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Nod.E said:

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

[yorkie1999]

12 hours ago, Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot said:

And another thing. Nottingham has 3 universities. Cases have got out of control since students came back. I absolutely understand primary and secondary school being a priority to open and keep open. But why are universities? Remote learn for now. Is there any good, valid reason universities should be having all the students on campus? 

 

The highest rates per 100,00 in europe are all cities that have large universities in the UK, it's no surprise that now we are seeing cases among the over 65's rising in those areas.

[Alf Bentley]

6 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

We're talking about a country that still has compulsory military service.

 

Maybe dictatorship (or history of) isn't the measure I'm looking for. I'm talking about a culture of complicity.

 

Switzerland and Israel are among the countries that still have compulsory military service - and Israel is among the countries currently worst afflicted by Covid.

France had compulsory military service within my adult existence - and, amazingly, is reintroducing it, I've just discovered....didn't know that.

 

Do you mean a culture of compliance rather than complicity?

I don't know enough about South Korea to comment but I know that New Zealand is a pretty libertarian country, and has performed well.

 

A "culture of complicity" sounds more like a description of British Joe Public repeatedly voting in Tory Governments operating hand-in-glove with global big business interests. 

(Ignore me, just joking - I don't want to get into a wider political argument or to derail the Covid thread!)

[Nod.E]

15 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

I can't remember a time. Because as Brits we're relatively apathetic.

 

Compliant or engaged, call it what you want. Different to what we have here and track and trace was always doomed to failure here.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Nod.E said:

I can't remember a time. Because as Brits we're relatively apathetic.

 

Compliant or engaged, call it what you want. Different to what we have here and track and trace was always doomed to failure here.

I'd definitely prefer the term engaged tbh.

 

I actually agree that "track and trace" would be a lot more difficult in the UK (though not impossible) - but I think that's down largely to the lack of a plan and infrastructure based on it, rather than the way the population is fundamentally.

[Buce]

 

40 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

...and so does Sweden, Russia and a variety of other nations. Is that really a measure of complicity?

 

Might want to ask Park Geun-Hye and Chun Doo-Hwan just how complicit the culture was towards authority when over a million people were in the streets looking for them to get kicked out. When was the last time over a million people were out in the streets of the UK?

 

Sorry if I'm targetting this a bit much, but there's a cultural stereotype of Asian folks being humble and subservient to authority being implied here - as if Western nations "stick it to the Man" more - and it simply isn't true.

 

Last year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47678763

 

 

2003.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

 

 

Edited 9 October 2020 by Buce

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Last year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47678763

 

2003.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

Not verified that the numbers were above a million except by the organisers themselves - I did check numbers both of those before I posted the initial response just in case because they were big.

 

Point taken, though - the Koreans actually getting what they wanted with their marches notwithstanding.

[Carl the Llama]

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Switzerland and Israel are among the countries that still have compulsory military service - and Israel is among the countries currently worst afflicted by Covid.

France had compulsory military service within my adult existence - and, amazingly, is reintroducing it, I've just discovered....didn't know that.

 

Do you mean a culture of compliance rather than complicity?

I don't know enough about South Korea to comment but I know that New Zealand is a pretty libertarian country, and has performed well.

 

A "culture of complicity" sounds more like a description of British Joe Public repeatedly voting in Tory Governments operating hand-in-glove with global big business interests. 

(Ignore me, just joking - I don't want to get into a wider political argument or to derail the Covid thread!)

Don't be sorry that's a very apt description of this nation of Tory loyalists.  Complicit is exactly the word for them when you look back on all the awful decisions taken in uk politics running back over a decade and still going

[Alf Bentley]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

Last year.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47678763

 

 

2003.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2765041.stm

 

 

 

 

[Buce]

 

53 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Don't be sorry that's a very apt description of this nation of Tory loyalists.  Complicit is exactly the word for them when you look back on all the awful decisions taken in uk politics running back over a decade and still going

 

Yep.

 

That flapping you can hear is the sound of Brexit chickens coming home to roost. We have a govt packed with Brexit loyalists, led by the most inept PM in living memory, at a time we need a govt packed with talented politicians who can actually do the job they are paid for.

Edited 9 October 2020 by Buce

[Chrysalis]

Whatever people's opinions are, I think what we seeing with the national BBC is very wrong.  Also in regards to youtube, facebook etc.

 

I have always suspected the BBC is a governments media arm, as for the last 20 years or so I have observed they have tended to lean to supporting whichever government is in power.

 

But since covid has been a thing, they have took this to an entire new level, the majority of their stories are sourced from ministers or government data, they time stories to maximise supporting the message from government, they are refusing to cover many stories that would arguably go against the government's plan.  I gave many examples during the Leicester lockdown, but what I have observed in the past 4 weeks, is that many local news media for different parts of the country are filled with reports about cases spreading in schools, kids been sent home, teachers been sent home, bus drivers been concerned for their health all plastered in local news media, and I have not seen a single story, not even "one" related to spread in schools on the BBC website.  It is clear they are censoring it.

 

Recently this was made public.

 

Notice how low down mixing in households is yet its consistently the first to be locked down, the school data is censored on this as well, not on the list at all.  We get they want to keep schools open, but they shouldn't be censoring all of the reports and the information on national media.  Let the public make their own opinion fairly instead of manipulating it.

 

Now I have called some young people selfish and can see on the list alcohol venues are high up, but I will say this, it is wrong to pick on young adults, whilst at the same time pretending schools are not a problem.  You cannot a blame a set of the population when the failure is in government policy.  Ultimately if 90% of the spread is on Uni campus and in schools, then almost everything else is pointless to lockdown, it becomes irrelevant noise on the data.  I think the main reason they going to do stricter lockdown during half term is so people don't think its down to schools been shut, instead they will say "oh look its the new lockdown measures".

 

As for youtube, facebook etc. the recent policies on censoring so called conspiracy theories is essentially censoring anything that doesn't match government or WHO policies.  Anything that disagrees with either seems to be considered conspiracy theory, and I don't like the direction things are heading in, I don't agree with most conspiracy theories I have read, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice in a free society, let people make their own minds up on what is right and wrong.

Edited 9 October 2020 by Chrysalis

[Buce]

sigh.

 

Quoted myself.

Edited 9 October 2020 by Buce

[Nalis]

3 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Whatever people's opinions are, I think what we seeing with the national BBC is very wrong.  Also in regards to youtube, facebook etc.

 

I have always suspected the BBC is a governments media arm, as for the last 20 years or so I have observed they have tended to lean to supporting whichever government is in power.

 

But since covid has been a thing, they have took this to an entire new level, the majority of their stories are sourced from ministers or government data, they time stories to maximise supporting the message from government, they are refusing to cover many stories that would arguably go against the government's plan.  I gave many examples during the Leicester lockdown, but what I have observed in the past 4 weeks, is that many local news media for different parts of the country are filled with reports about cases spreading in schools, kids been sent home, teachers been sent home, bus drivers been concerned for their health all plastered in local news media, and I have not seen a single story, not even "one" related to spread in schools on the BBC website.  It is clear they are censoring it.

 

Recently this was made public.

 

Notice how low down mixing in households is yet its consistently the first to be locked down, the school data is censored on this as well, not on the list at all.  We get hey want to keep schools open, but they shouldn't be censoring all of the reports and the information on national media.  Let the public make their own opinion fairly instead of manipulating it.

 

Now I have called some young people selfish and can see on the list alcohol venues are high up, but I will say this, it is wrong to pick on young adults, whilst at the same time pretending schools are not a problem.  You cannot a blame a set of the population when the failure is in government policy.

 

As for youtube, facebook etc. the recent policies on censoring so called conspiracy theories is essentially censoring anything that doesn't match government or WHO policies.  Anything that disagrees with either seems to be considered conspiracy theory, and I don't like the direction things are heading in, I don't agree with most conspiracy theories I have read, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice in a free society, let people make their own minds up on what is right and wrong.

You have a valid point on schools.

 

As much as it has no bearing on my life,I dont want schools to shut, there are very few people that do.  However, there is absolute radio silence on saying they are contributing to the spread, its almost seen as offensive to even dare think it in the media. 

 

Much easier to blame the hospitality sector, the SNP and Tories are less likely to lose key votes that way.

[Chrysalis]

Just now, Nalis said:

You have a valid point on schools.

 

As much as it has no bearing on my life,I dont want schools to shut, there are very few people that do.  However, there is absolute radio silence on saying they are contributing to the spread, its almost seen as offensive to even dare think it in the media. 

 

Much easier to blame the hospitality sector, the SNP and Tories are less likely to lose key votes that way.

Yeah that's my issue here, the censorship, I understand why they been kept open.

[foxile5]

15 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Yeah that's my issue here, the censorship, I understand why they been kept open.

To acknowledge that schools are effective vectors or sites of transmission would be acknowledge wrong-doing earlier in the line.

 

A few months back Tory members were paying out the 'kids don't get it and if they do they don't pass it on' line in order to fully open schools. This was at very best disingenuous and at worst negligent. Kids do get it and do pass it on. If it were acknowledged and suggested that they'd find a work-around it would reflect much more positively.

 

It does also shine a light on funding for the education sector - it is vital to the country but it is seriously underfunded. The COVID recovery funding was made available but only with the removing of another pot of funding, don't be fooled by the figures touted - it was simply funding rebranded. Schools can't afford the PPE necessary, and the government simply don't have it, to stem to transmission of the virus.

 

Schools should be open in the safest capacity possible. I have thought that a rotating opening would be best - each year group at the school gets 2 days at school on rotation and home-school provisions are made for the period outside of school.

 

But then, I'm no fire-place salesman with rat eyes.

[Babylon]

3 hours ago, Nod.E said:

I suppose it comes down to what you prioritise.

 

The quality of life of 10 million. (Sweden)

 

Or saving the life of 40/50k already vulnerable people. 

 

In 10 years when the vast majority of those would be dead anyway, we'll be kicking ourselves we didn't choose the former.

 

Call me cynical, brutal or heartless. It's just the better thing for the human race, long term and short.

You know these "vulnerable people" can include people with:

 

Cancer

Chronic kidney disease

COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)

Heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant

Obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 30 kg/m2 or higher but < 40 kg/m2)

Severe Obesity (BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2)

Sickle cell disease

Smoking

Type 2 diabetes mellitus

Asthma (moderate-to-severe)

Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain)

Cystic fibrosis

Hypertension or high blood pressure

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids, or use of other immune weakening medicines

Neurologic conditions, such as dementia

Liver disease

Overweight (BMI > 25 kg/m2, but < 30 kg/m2)

Pregnancy

Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues)

Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder)

Type 1 diabetes mellitus

 

It's not going to stop at 40/50k here, left unchecked the number is going to be vastly higher. Just so we know, how many mums, dads, grandma's and grandpas dying exactly does it take for you to think it's worth while having restrictions?

[foxile5]

3 minutes ago, Babylon said:

You know these "vulnerable people" can include people with:

 

Cancer

Chronic kidney disease

COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)

Heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant

Obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 30 kg/m2 or higher but < 40 kg/m2)

Severe Obesity (BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2)

Sickle cell disease

Smoking

Type 2 diabetes mellitus

Asthma (moderate-to-severe)

Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain)

Cystic fibrosis

Hypertension or high blood pressure

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids, or use of other immune weakening medicines

Neurologic conditions, such as dementia

Liver disease

Overweight (BMI > 25 kg/m2, but < 30 kg/m2)

Pregnancy

Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues)

Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder)

Type 1 diabetes mellitus

 

It's not going to stop at 40/50k here, left unchecked the number is going to be vastly higher. Just so we know, how many mums, dads, grandma's and grandpas dying exactly does it take for you to think it's worth while having restrictions?

People are also being incredibly blinkered to the fact that there are huge long-term side effects.

 

People who have had COVID are reporting Brain Fog and a huge slump in mobility. People are struggling to breath properly months after it.

 

It seems a scant price to pay for my health, not going boozer for a bit, but what do I know/

[Paninistickers]

6 minutes ago, foxile5 said:

People are also being incredibly blinkered to the fact that there are huge long-term side effects.

 

People who have had COVID are reporting Brain Fog and a huge slump in mobility. People are struggling to breath properly months after it.

 

It seems a scant price to pay for my health, not going boozer for a bit, but what do I know/

This long term effects argument is a bit of a weak one.

 

Only a few report long covid..in amongst them.will be the usual malingerers (my mate's gf tested positive last week....I can absolutely guarantee she'll end up with long covid. Some people just love to wallow. Attention seeking thing) 

 

Others I have no doubt are genuine. But food poisoning, normal flu, bronchitis are all examples of illness that can have a debilitating lag for.months. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

 

Yep.

 

That flapping you can hear is the sound of Brexit chickens coming home to roost. We have a govt packed with Brexit loyalists, led by the most inept PM in living memory, at a time we need a govt packed with talented politicians who can actually do the job they are paid for.

 

He's back !! ...   and still chewing on his brexit bone ! ...   

 

Welcome back Bucey ! ...   

[Babylon]

44 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Whatever people's opinions are, I think what we seeing with the national BBC is very wrong.  Also in regards to youtube, facebook etc.

 

I have always suspected the BBC is a governments media arm, as for the last 20 years or so I have observed they have tended to lean to supporting whichever government is in power.

 

But since covid has been a thing, they have took this to an entire new level, the majority of their stories are sourced from ministers or government data, they time stories to maximise supporting the message from government, they are refusing to cover many stories that would arguably go against the government's plan.  I gave many examples during the Leicester lockdown, but what I have observed in the past 4 weeks, is that many local news media for different parts of the country are filled with reports about cases spreading in schools, kids been sent home, teachers been sent home, bus drivers been concerned for their health all plastered in local news media, and I have not seen a single story, not even "one" related to spread in schools on the BBC website.  It is clear they are censoring it.

I mean, it might not be labeled that, but they are hardly ignoring the issue. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54435425

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54322935

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54433783

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54477618

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmmqx9w8k5wt/students

 

44 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Recently this was made public.

 

Notice how low down mixing in households is yet its consistently the first to be locked down, the school data is censored on this as well, not on the list at all.  We get they want to keep schools open, but they shouldn't be censoring all of the reports and the information on national media.  Let the public make their own opinion fairly instead of manipulating it.

 

It's not on that graphic due to it being about other places and not schools surely?

 

44 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

 

Now I have called some young people selfish and can see on the list alcohol venues are high up, but I will say this, it is wrong to pick on young adults, whilst at the same time pretending schools are not a problem.  You cannot a blame a set of the population when the failure is in government policy.  Ultimately if 90% of the spread is on Uni campus and in schools, then almost everything else is pointless to lockdown, it becomes irrelevant noise on the data.  I think the main reason they going to do stricter lockdown during half term is so people don't think its down to schools been shut, instead they will say "oh look its the new lockdown measures".

 

As for youtube, facebook etc. the recent policies on censoring so called conspiracy theories is essentially censoring anything that doesn't match government or WHO policies.  Anything that disagrees with either seems to be considered conspiracy theory, and I don't like the direction things are heading in, I don't agree with most conspiracy theories I have read, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a voice in a free society, let people make their own minds up on what is right and wrong.

What's been censored that you think shouldn't? Are they not just removing the most ridiculous poisonous shite. I'm telling you know, if it's to stamped out there are going to be shocking long term implications. Because I'm seeing it weaponised and becoming far more sophisticated. These people are being informed and educated by some of the most ridiculous shite I've ever seen. 

[yorkie1999]

40 minutes ago, Babylon said:

You know these "vulnerable people" can include people with:

 

Cancer

Chronic kidney disease

COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)

Heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant

Obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 30 kg/m2 or higher but < 40 kg/m2)

Severe Obesity (BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2)

Sickle cell disease

Smoking

Type 2 diabetes mellitus

Asthma (moderate-to-severe)

Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain)

Cystic fibrosis

Hypertension or high blood pressure

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids, or use of other immune weakening medicines

Neurologic conditions, such as dementia

Liver disease

Overweight (BMI > 25 kg/m2, but < 30 kg/m2)

Pregnancy

Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues)

Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder)

Type 1 diabetes mellitus

 

It's not going to stop at 40/50k here, left unchecked the number is going to be vastly higher. Just so we know, how many mums, dads, grandma's and grandpas dying exactly does it take for you to think it's worth while having restrictions?

And people from Bame communities.

[Nod.E]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

You know these "vulnerable people" can include people with:

 

Cancer

Chronic kidney disease

COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)

Heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant

Obesity (body mass index [BMI] of 30 kg/m2 or higher but < 40 kg/m2)

Severe Obesity (BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2)

Sickle cell disease

Smoking

Type 2 diabetes mellitus

Asthma (moderate-to-severe)

Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain)

Cystic fibrosis

Hypertension or high blood pressure

Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids, or use of other immune weakening medicines

Neurologic conditions, such as dementia

Liver disease

Overweight (BMI > 25 kg/m2, but < 30 kg/m2)

Pregnancy

Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues)

Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder)

Type 1 diabetes mellitus

 

It's not going to stop at 40/50k here, left unchecked the number is going to be vastly higher. Just so we know, how many mums, dads, grandma's and grandpas dying exactly does it take for you to think it's worth while having restrictions?

Mostly obesity, let's be honest. 

 

It's hard to put an exact figure on it but for as long as it ranks behind Cancer and heart disease (combined about 330k per year) in deaths, I can't see why we would damage a generation's aspirations to reduce the numbers a little.

 

Again, bear in mind the true number of causal Covid deaths to date is likely much lower than the 40/50k we're at now.

 

Made this point a thousand times but it's all too easy to make it sound horrific when you talk about thousands of deaths. The context is that 50,000 as a percentage of 65.5m is 0.0763%.

 

To add more context to that number, it's 4 seconds out of a 90 minute football match.

 

I know you'll tell me I'm trivialising the death of real people but I'm sorry, I'm more interested in looking after the people that represent the other 89 minutes and 56 seconds. 

 

Edit: not that I expect others to think rationally, of course. People lose their shit at the horrors of terrorist attacks despite deaths from terror attacks accounting for 0.01% of deaths. Its kind of like a ref reacting to the nature of an injury rather than the offence itself. We're an emotion-led species and unfortunately this disease now has our attention. Rational thought doesn't stand a chance.

Edited 9 October 2020 by Nod.E