Coronavirus Thread

[SpacedX]

1 minute ago, Harrydc said:

You really do speak in riddles dont you. 

 

A totalitarian state poses a high degree of control over public life. 

 

You're telling me that our government does not at this very moment in time control our life? 

 

What we can do. Where we can go. 

 

A totalitarian state uses surveillance within its society. 

 

Track and trace is just the start. Vaccine passports are next. Once they're incorporated, the social credit system is next. 

 

That's not even discussing the two tier society we will have of 'vaccinated' (compliant) and 'unvaccinated' (non compliant). 

 

Yet, my comment is up there with the most stupid in your eyes. 

 

 

 

No, trust me, it significantly surpasses that.

 

Could someone else please, on this occasion?

 

What I will say is, when international travel is again viable, purchase a one way ticket (you won't be needing a return - I'll willingly fund it for you), to Tehran, Pyongyang, Asmara - your choice, (and don't bother with those daft vaccinations). Upon arrival, if you actually succeed in accessing the internet, publicly post about the "disgraceful propaganda techniques" of the state broadcaster. Then sit in your hotel room, wait for ten minutes or so and see what happens. 

 

Alternatively, why not visit Yangon this summer? - feel free to join the street protests and listen to the bullets whistling past your empty head. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Harrydc]

12 minutes ago, Line-X said:

No, trust me, it significantly surpasses that.

 

Could someone else please, on this occasion?

 

What I will say is, when international travel is again viable, purchase a one way ticket (you won't be needing a return - I'll willingly fund it for you), to Tehran, Pyongyang, Asmara - your choice, (and don't bother with those daft vaccinations). Upon arrival, if you actually succeed in accessing the internet, publicly post about the "disgraceful propaganda techniques" of the state broadcaster. Then sit in your hotel room, wait for ten minutes or so and see what happens. 

 

Alternatively, why not visit Yangon this summer? - feel free to join the street protests and listen to the bullets whistling past your empty head. 

 

 

 

 

You're being very one dimensional when speaking about totalitarianism. 

 

It's not as simple as comparing us to 'North Korea'. 

[dsr-burnley]

The government has passed laws, still in force, to dictate who I can hug and in what circumstances.  Is there not a totalitarian aspect to that?  If it were to be announced that North Korea were to allow people to meet their mothers as long as it it is outdoors, but they cannot touch them at all; except as a special concession, you can hold hands with someone who is dying - would we be thinking what a liberal society North Korea is?

 

The government has passed laws that control every aspect of my life.  Where I work, when I can go to work, who I can meet, where I can eat and shop, who I can meet, what I must wear.

[Nod.E]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/apr/14/brain-fog-how-trauma-uncertainty-and-isolation-have-affected-our-minds-and-memory

 

I've definitely experienced this 'brain fog'.

 

And for all of you about to respond, "yeah, we could tell, mate", I'll save you a job

 

 

[WigstonWanderer]

25 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

The government has passed laws, still in force, to dictate who I can hug and in what circumstances.  Is there not a totalitarian aspect to that?  If it were to be announced that North Korea were to allow people to meet their mothers as long as it it is outdoors, but they cannot touch them at all; except as a special concession, you can hold hands with someone who is dying - would we be thinking what a liberal society North Korea is?

 

The government has passed laws that control every aspect of my life.  Where I work, when I can go to work, who I can meet, where I can eat and shop, who I can meet, what I must wear.

Surely even you must feel that these are exceptional circumstances.

[dsr-burnley]

Just now, WigstonWanderer said:

Surely even you must feel that these are exceptional circumstances.

That's not the issue.  The issue isn't whether the government is justified in being totalitarian, the issue is whether it is being totalitarian.  "Totalitarian" is a government that exercises a high degree of control over public and private life.  You can argue either way whether this one is.  What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

[Nod.E]

Just now, dsr-burnley said:

That's not the issue.  The issue isn't whether the government is justified in being totalitarian, the issue is whether it is being totalitarian.  "Totalitarian" is a government that exercises a high degree of control over public and private life.  You can argue either way whether this one is.  What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

The implication was that there is a government motive for acting in a totalitarian way, though. 

 

Pick your battles!

[Dunge]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
 

Restrictions on daily life are one aspect of many in totalitarianism. It’s the only one that fits our situation, and it’s genuinely being used to stop hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in this country from dying.

 

As for “where will it end” - not everyone who gets power secretly wants to impose authoritarian policies on the populace. In fact, we’re generally very good in this country at not voting for such people. Boris Johnson can be, and is regularly, criticised for giving people those freedoms back too much last year and causing large waves of further deaths; quite the opposite of some secret cabal determined to force totalitarianism upon us.

 

Ask yourself one question: What evidence would be sufficient to disprove the existence of such a plot or organisation? And then, when you realise the answer is that there can never be evidence of such perfection, quality and timeliness to do so, maybe you’ll stand a chance of learning to live with that and just accept that the world is an uncertain place full of uncertain people and events, and where s**t things like a virus mutating from nature and whacking us all just happens sometimes.

[WigstonWanderer]

41 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

That's not the issue.  The issue isn't whether the government is justified in being totalitarian, the issue is whether it is being totalitarian.  "Totalitarian" is a government that exercises a high degree of control over public and private life.  You can argue either way whether this one is.  What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

No great fan of the Tory government, but when they declare a one party state I’ll start worry about totalitarianism. In the meantime I will accept that these measures are justified as a necessary response to a health crisis that is unprecedented in living memory.

 

Here in Australia, early, very strong measures have resulted in the ability to live virtually unrestricted lives for most of the last year. Of course the UK is different, and the same strategy was perhaps never a viable proposition, but it’s clear that not doing anything is simplistic and naive. How this can be compared to genuine totalitarian regimes of the past or present is baffling.

[leicsmac]

43 minutes ago, Dunge said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
 

Restrictions on daily life are one aspect of many in totalitarianism. It’s the only one that fits our situation, and it’s genuinely being used to stop hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in this country from dying.

 

As for “where will it end” - not everyone who gets power secretly wants to impose authoritarian policies on the populace. In fact, we’re generally very good in this country at not voting for such people. Boris Johnson can be, and is regularly, criticised for giving people those freedoms back too much last year and causing large waves of further deaths; quite the opposite of some secret cabal determined to force totalitarianism upon us.

 

Ask yourself one question: What evidence would be sufficient to disprove the existence of such a plot or organisation? And then, when you realise the answer is that there can never be evidence of such perfection, quality and timeliness to do so, maybe you’ll stand a chance of learning to live with that and just accept that the world is an uncertain place full of uncertain people and events, and where s**t things like a virus mutating from nature and whacking us all just happens sometimes.

Quite.

 

And if folks are worried about such overreach in response to a (relatively) fair to middling viral threat, just wait until they see what nature has in store for us further down the line and how that might shake their lives up....if it isn't addressed adequately.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

That's not the issue.  The issue isn't whether the government is justified in being totalitarian, the issue is whether it is being totalitarian.  "Totalitarian" is a government that exercises a high degree of control over public and private life.  You can argue either way whether this one is.  What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

I think the poster in question is perhaps simply tired of coming up with cited, credible and accurate scientific information consistently on this very thread (and corrected said information upon discussion if necessary), only to be blatantly disregarded by folks with...rather less knowledge on the matter but their own personal ideology backing them.

 

That is of course their prerogative, as it is then that of Line-X to get a bit shirty with them in response. Personally, I think they've shown remarkable restraint given some of the responses in this thread.

 

1 hour ago, Nod.E said:

The implication was that there is a government motive for acting in a totalitarian way, though. 

 

Pick your battles!

Yep, the OP implied malice rather than necessity as government motive here. There is a marked difference between the two.

Edited 16 April 2021 by leicsmac

[grth2004]

So had my first dose of AstraZeneca yesterday and last night I had massive fever and aches and pain generally feeling very ill overnight. Has anyone had this and how long did it last , did anyone find anything to help ?

[StanSP]

1 hour ago, grth2004 said:

So had my first dose of AstraZeneca yesterday and last night I had massive fever and aches and pain generally feeling very ill overnight. Has anyone had this and how long did it last , did anyone find anything to help ?

Generally only lasts 24-48 hours. 

[STEVIE B]

1 hour ago, grth2004 said:

So had my first dose of AstraZeneca yesterday and last night I had massive fever and aches and pain generally feeling very ill overnight. Has anyone had this and how long did it last , did anyone find anything to help ?

Had AZ two weeks ago. Took a couple of Paracetamol BEFORE, then alternated with Ibuprofen for about 18 hours or so. Had a sore arm for 2/3 days, that’s all. 

Edited 16 April 2021 by STEVIE B

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, grth2004 said:

So had my first dose of AstraZeneca yesterday and last night I had massive fever and aches and pain generally feeling very ill overnight. Has anyone had this and how long did it last , did anyone find anything to help ?

Paracetamol 

you should be passed the worst by tomorrow if not later today 

 

you could cheer yourself up by thinking the following 2 things 

 

a) you’re not ill. You don’t actually have anything wrong with you at all. That may help you cope mentally. 
 

b) your reaction to the jab can be correlated to what your reaction to the real virus might have been. Think how grim you’d have felt if you’d contracted covid !! there’s no evidence for this but i figure it can help those who have a bad reaction get through it more easily as they consider the silver lining .....

 

 

[grth2004]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Paracetamol 

you should be passed the worst by tomorrow if not later today 

 

you could cheer yourself up by thinking the following 2 things 

 

a) you’re not ill. You don’t actually have anything wrong with you at all. That may help you cope mentally. 
 

b) your reaction to the jab can be correlated to what your reaction to the real virus might have been. Think how grim you’d have felt if you’d contracted covid !! there’s no evidence for this but i figure it can help those who have a bad reaction get through it more easily as they consider the silver lining .....

 

 

Thanks , yeah having a really tough time , stuck in bed still feeling awful and wasn’t expecting it to be this bad although my temperature seems to be getting better slowly. 
Great points you made , was a bit depressed feeling ill so thanks 

[st albans fox]

When reading posters views on what’s going on out there, we should take into account that everyone has their own ‘cross to bear’ over the past year.  We know that Harry has commented on his anxiety over the period and it’s natural that people’s perspectives are going to be influenced by their experiences .......... perhaps boris is one of them ......

[String fellow]

The above exchanges put me in mind of George Orwell's famous book. Here's a quote from it. 'It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. Winston went to his local surgery and got his first dose of the Covid-1984 vaccine, but wasn't cured of his belief that he lived in a totalitarian state. Then he realised why - it was manufactured by B.Johnson and B.Johnson.'

[foxfanazer]

Tend to stay away from the mainstream media coverage of the pandemic wherever possible. Are things still looking positive in terms of cases staying low enough to continue lifting restrictions according to the road map? 

[StanSP]

2 minutes ago, foxfanazer said:

Tend to stay away from the mainstream media coverage of the pandemic wherever possible. Are things still looking positive in terms of cases staying low enough to continue lifting restrictions according to the road map? 

Well they reduced to their lowest rate in a long time a couple of days ago... 

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases

 

7-day rate has levelled out. 

[SpacedX]

8 hours ago, Harrydc said:

You're being very one dimensional when speaking about totalitarianism. 

 

It's not as simple as comparing us to 'North Korea'. 

You clearly do not understand the term Harry. 

 

The criteria that you listed may be loosely associated with totalitarian government but they do not define or constitute such a regime. State surveillance and propaganda for example are practiced by practically every government in the world to greater and lesser degrees and throughout western democracies. Note the word democracy here - you have the right to exercise free speech..as you amusingly referred to it on this thread as "thinking out of the box", (I prefer to term it spouting ill-informed opinionated horseshit and ignorance over the internet, but there you go). As I said, feel free to attempt it abroad. Start with Saudi Arabia or the UAE perhaps?

 

Following the Second World War, the concept of totalitarianism was applied in political science to denote an antiliberal political system which erases all boundaries between the state, civil society and individual personality. Totalitarianism involves a distinct type of dictatorship which manifests the following characteristics: absolute state power is concentrated and consolidated into a single party; control is exercised over all areas of social life; terror is employed by a secret police; the mass of the people are coerced and mobilised behind the regime; and an official and irrefutable ideology is disseminated which aims at the construction of a new historical order. For an example of this examine 'Year Zero' and the rise of the Khmer  Rouge and the Communist Party of Kampuchea, through which Cambodia was converted into a one-party communist state governed according to Pol Pot's own interpretation of Marxism–Leninism. Crucially, totalitarianism prohibits opposition parties and simply erases and eradicates any individual opposition to the state and its claims. There are currently two nations in the world that still have governments that are classified as totalitarian dictatorships which are North Korea and Eritrea. Collectively, there have been eleven totalitarian authorities to date: The Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics, The Third Reich, The National Legionary State, The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, The Democratic People's Republic of Korea, The People's Republic of China, The Democratic Kampuchea, The People's Socialist Republic of Albania, The Socialist Republic of Romania, The Socialist Republic of Burma, The State of Eritrea. 

 

There are also authoritarian regimes for example Iran, Syria, Venezuela or Equatorial Guinea in which the power is consolidated/condensed in one leader as opposed to being embodied through the state although invariably a despotic head of state will personify this through totalitarian rule. There are also theocracies and military rule such as the current terrifying situation in Myanmar.

 

So yes, North Korea Harry. Like I said, visit Pyongyang, settle into your hotel, go online (good luck with that) and attempt something mild such as alleging propaganda through government and state broadcaster. When the door is kicked in that night and you're dragged out of bed, strung up naked by your ankles from a meat hook with electrodes attached to your testicles, you might then understand the difference.

 

(Didn't Frank Bough actually pay for that?)

 

 

[Buce]

44 minutes ago, String fellow said:

The above exchanges put me in mind of George Orwell's famous book. Here's a quote from it. 'It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. Winston went to his local surgery and got his first dose of the Covid-1984 vaccine, but wasn't cured of his belief that he lived in a totalitarian state. Then he realised why - it was manufactured by B.Johnson and B.Johnson.'

 

Hmm.

 

I've read Animal Farm several times but I don't remember that passage.

[Zear0]

I think the more active posters in this thread have done an outstanding job at keeping this discussion civil on what is an extremely emotional and evocative subject.  However, to forgo any overly polite response to avoid any misinterpretation, anyone who thinks we live in a totalitarian state are woefully ignorant (but the state controlled media would make me think that ) and in need of some serious education on Nazism, soviet-era Marxism-Leninism or the religious nationalism in Afghanistan pre-2001.  Don't indulge it and please call it out for being what is is, both inaccurate and woefully offensive to people who have and do live under such regimes.  I'm aware Harry has spoke of his struggles, like we all have, but there is a line between being conscious of people's wellbeing and indulging frankly offensive opinions.   Everyone has a part to play in the war against pseudoscience/history and I credit Line-X and other posters for their continuing effort against so.

 

Please let's not de-rail an extremely good thread with some of the best discussion and debate I've read on this forum. 

[SpacedX]

8 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

That's not the issue.  The issue isn't whether the government is justified in being totalitarian, the issue is whether it is being totalitarian.  "Totalitarian" is a government that exercises a high degree of control over public and private life.  You can argue either way whether this one is.  What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

Incorrect. Those might be facets or consequences of totalitariansim but they do not define of constitute it. And could I correct you there - they are not "my views". I am irrelevant to this exchange and no, there is no arguing "either way".. If someone is that ill-informed to allege that the UK is currently governed by a totalitarian regime then that is wholly incorrect, utterly delusional and yes, frankly a product of gross stupidity. 

 

 

Edited 16 April 2021 by Line-X

[Scotch]

3 hours ago, grth2004 said:

So had my first dose of AstraZeneca yesterday and last night I had massive fever and aches and pain generally feeling very ill overnight. Has anyone had this and how long did it last , did anyone find anything to help ?

Quite a few folk I know have had the AZ vaccination and your symptoms sound absolutely spot on to what they went through. Like an extremely bad flu. 

 

You should be fine by tomorrow. Don't let it worry you. This reaction to it seems to be the norm for a large number of folk who have had it. 

 

Hope you feel better soon.