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filbertway

Coronavirus Thread

By filbertway, in General Chat

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Babylon

Babylon

Posted
Posted
On 15/04/2021 at 23:50, dsr-burnley said:

The government has passed laws, still in force, to dictate who I can hug and in what circumstances.  Is there not a totalitarian aspect to that?  If it were to be announced that North Korea were to allow people to meet their mothers as long as it it is outdoors, but they cannot touch them at all; except as a special concession, you can hold hands with someone who is dying - would we be thinking what a liberal society North Korea is?

 

The government has passed laws that control every aspect of my life.  Where I work, when I can go to work, who I can meet, where I can eat and shop, who I can meet, what I must wear.

If they did it as a temporary measure because of a global health crisis, nobody with an ounce of common sense would bat an eyelid.

 

People actually thinking we are going to turn into China and that the government somehow don’t want this shit to end are living in cloud cuckoo land.

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peach0000

peach0000

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Raj said:

Had the Astrazeneca  jab earlier.

Didnt feel a thing except already just feel absolutely  knackered!!!

Think a sleep in the sun is on the cards!

Tiredness is how it starts lol For me it started with tiredness and then there was a long slippery slope into fevers, aching and headaches that lasted 24 hours lol

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Dr The Singh

Dr The Singh

Posted
Posted
On 16/04/2021 at 17:18, KrefelderFox666 said:

Probably because he is about to go on business to India (which I am not sure is all that essential at this point, be it "safe" or not).

Mate,.India's human rights are nearly as  bad as China's.  The farmer protest and the persecution of minorities rarely gets investigated by British media.  India's spend on weaponry alone is £2billion annually.

 

Many of our MP's are paid agents including Vaz, Sharma and Priti Patel.

 

Money talks

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dsr-burnley

dsr-burnley

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Babylon said:

If they did it as a temporary measure because of a global health crisis, nobody with an ounce of common sense would bat an eyelid.

 

People actually thinking we are going to turn into China and that the government somehow don’t want this [deleted] to end are living in cloud cuckoo land.

This is a pointless argument.  It's an argument about definition,  Is it reasonable to call unprecedented control of our personal lives behaviour, totalitarianism?  Some think that totalitarianism is totalitarianism no matter what the reason.  Others think that no amount of total control is totalitarianism if it's done in a good cause.

 

All I was saying is that if someone believes that our government is behaving in a totalitarian manner, it is a valid point of view.  Not a point of view for which they should be abused and vilified.  

 

The argument about China is bogus.  It's false logic.  China is a totalitarian state; no argument there.  The UK is not China; no argument there.  The conclusion that the UK isn't totalitarian because it isn't China?  False logic.  Totalitarian can have several degrees and many different aspects.

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Babylon

Babylon

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

This is a pointless argument.  It's an argument about definition,  Is it reasonable to call unprecedented control of our personal lives behaviour, totalitarianism?  Some think that totalitarianism is totalitarianism no matter what the reason.  Others think that no amount of total control is totalitarianism if it's done in a good cause.

 

All I was saying is that if someone believes that our government is behaving in a totalitarian manner, it is a valid point of view.  Not a point of view for which they should be abused and vilified.  

 

The argument about China is bogus.  It's false logic.  China is a totalitarian state; no argument there.  The UK is not China; no argument there.  The conclusion that the UK isn't totalitarian because it isn't China?  False logic.  Totalitarian can have several degrees and many different aspects.

He literally said we are going to have a social points system like China. 
 

There isn’t a single country in the world that you can’t point at and say it’s totalitarian then if you want to say it’s any government controlling people, because they all have some forms of control over their citizens private lives and restrict their abilities to do certain things. 
 

Fact is, we live in a democracy that could vote Johnson and friends out. You want to go and look how the people who defined it originally did so, because it wouldn’t and doesn’t meet their definitions.

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Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, dsr-burnley said:

This is a pointless argument.  It's an argument about definition,  Is it reasonable to call unprecedented control of our personal lives behaviour, totalitarianism?  Some think that totalitarianism is totalitarianism no matter what the reason.  Others think that no amount of total control is totalitarianism if it's done in a good cause.

 

All I was saying is that if someone believes that our government is behaving in a totalitarian manner, it is a valid point of view.  Not a point of view for which they should be abused and vilified.  

 

The argument about China is bogus.  It's false logic.  China is a totalitarian state; no argument there.  The UK is not China; no argument there.  The conclusion that the UK isn't totalitarian because it isn't China?  False logic.  Totalitarian can have several degrees and many different aspects.


What you’re arguing is the definition of Authoritarian, of which there are degrees on a sliding scale to liberty. Totalitarian is, by definition, extreme and complete authoritarian, which the UK is not.

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Raj

Raj

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Tiredness is how it starts lol For me it started with tiredness and then there was a long slippery slope into fevers, aching and headaches that lasted 24 hours lol

Yeah nice one thanks!!!! LOL

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los dedos

los dedos

Posted
Posted

Managed to work in a place for the last year that's riddled with Covid and not catch it . Some now cases are really low I finally get infected. :dunno:

I main Moan at the minute is nobody in my family will walk the dog as its  too risky . Ok to have loads of mates round their houses for a party though :rolleyes:

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The People's Hero

The People's Hero

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Dunge said:


What you’re arguing is the definition of Authoritarian, of which there are degrees on a sliding scale to liberty. Totalitarian is, by definition, extreme and complete authoritarian, which the UK is not.

Found the only guy in the thread who understands the actual definition of the words being casually thrown around.

 

Dunge. Thank you.

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SpacedX

SpacedX

Posted
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Posted
10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

This is a pointless argument.  It's an argument about definition

Then may I suggest that you actually look it up at some stage?

 

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Some think that totalitarianism is totalitarianism no matter what the reason.  Others think that no amount of total control is totalitarianism if it's done in a good cause.

 

What?

 

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

All I was saying is that if someone believes that our government is behaving in a totalitarian manner, it is a valid point of view.  Not a point of view for which they should be abused and vilified.  

No it isn't - it is completely incorrect. "A totalitarian manner"??? lollol.

 

Moreover, that is not what was said. To remind you:

 

On 15/04/2021 at 22:06, Harrydc said:

I don't think we're living in a totalitarian state. 

 

I know we're living in one. 

 

Doesn't sound like a "point of view" to me. And that is precisely why I suggested that he actually does precisely that - goes and lives in one. Excellent way of understanding the difference. Like I said, I'll drive him to the airport and pay for his one way air ticket. 

 

On 16/04/2021 at 00:24, dsr-burnley said:

What mildly got my goat was Line-X's utter contempt for someone who doesn't share his views on what constitutes totalitarian.

And why do you keep saying that? - It's nothing to do with anyone's "views" - yours, Harry's or least of all mine. The UK is not a totalitarian government -  "my views" are irrelevant and I don't believe at any stage I expressed any - (other than the fact that Harry's statement was beyond stupidity itself). 

 

10 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

The argument about China is bogus.  It's false logic.  China is a totalitarian state; no argument there.  The UK is not China; no argument there.  The conclusion that the UK isn't totalitarian because it isn't China?  False logic.  Totalitarian can have several degrees and many different aspects.

No it isn't - China is an authoritarian state. It was totalitarian under the dictatorship of Mao Zedong. To reiterate, there are currently two nations that are currently classified as totalitarian regimes - North Korea and Eritrea. 

 

11 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Totalitarian can have several degrees and many different aspects.

Totalitarianism isn't some nebulous term nor does it exist on some notional continuum or arbitrary sliding scale to varying degrees in accordance with someone's opinions of a football forum - it either is or it isn't. Yes, there are a few fuzzy distinctions between authoritarianism and totalitarianism, but crucially there are definitive differences. As I explained, there have been eleven totalitarian regimes to date. 

 

While authoritarian regimes place all of the power into a single dictator or group, that power is only political. Within totalitarian regimes, the leadership controls all aspects of the state from economic to political to social, cultural and the private lives of individuals. Although authoritarian governments will place limitations and restrictions upon the latter through propaganda, censorship and suppression and invariably through the denial of human rights, they nonetheless demand obedience to orders and compliance with rules and laws. So they impose judicial and extra-judicial force to maintain that strict social order however corrupt that legal system may be. In comparison, the power exerted by a totalitarian government is all pervading, absolute, beyond recourse, usually driven by its own dogmatic ideology and does not defer to, invoke or require legal backing. Totalitarian regimes thereby condition science, education, art and the private lives of citizens - there is no freedom of expression whatsoever, zero in the way of political opposition and any voice of objection or dissent is immediately crushed either by imprisonment or death. Totalitarianism in power is self-perpetuating and solely about keeping itself in power by preemptively removing large groups of people which is why it is so commonly historically linked with mass purges and genocide. Through this, the system neutralises all those who might question it. Totalitarians don't merely want people to obey. Totalitarians want people to believe, to worship the state/leader and its ideals and are willing to use terror, brainwashing, or whatever other psychological pressures they can apply to achieve that end. 

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Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Then may I suggest that you actually look it up at some stage?

 

What?

 

No it isn't - it is completely incorrect. "A totalitarian manner"??? lollol.

 

Moreover, that is not what was said. To remind you:

 

Doesn't sound like a "point of view" to me. And that is precisely why I suggested that he actually does precisely that - goes and lives in one. Excellent way of understanding the difference. Like I said, I'll drive him to the airport and pay for his one way air ticket. 

 

And why do you keep saying that? - It's nothing to do with anyone's "views" - yours, Harry's or least of all mine. The UK is not a totalitarian government -  "my views" are irrelevant and I don't believe at any stage I expressed any - (other than the fact that Harry's statement was beyond stupidity itself). 

 

No it isn't - China is an authoritarian state. It was totalitarian under the dictatorship of Mao Zedong. To reiterate, there are currently two nations that are currently classified as totalitarian regimes - North Korea and Eritrea. 

 

Totalitarianism isn't some nebulous term nor does it exist on some notional continuum or arbitrary sliding scale to varying degrees in accordance with someone's opinions of a football forum - it either is or it isn't. Yes, there are a few fuzzy distinctions between authoritarianism and totalitarianism, but crucially there are definitive differences. As I explained, there have been eleven totalitarian regimes to date. 

 

While authoritarian regimes place all of the power into a single dictator or group, that power is only political. Within totalitarian regimes, the leadership controls all aspects of the state from economic to political to social, cultural and the private lives of individuals. Although authoritarian governments will place limitations and restrictions upon the latter through propaganda, censorship and suppression and invariably through the denial of human rights, they nonetheless demand obedience to orders and compliance with rules and laws. So they impose judicial and extra-judicial force to maintain that strict social order however corrupt that legal system may be. In comparison, the power exerted by a totalitarian government is all pervading, absolute, beyond recourse, usually driven by its own dogmatic ideology and does not defer to, invoke or require legal backing. Totalitarian regimes thereby condition science, education, art and the private lives of citizens - there is no freedom of expression whatsoever, zero in the way of political opposition and any voice of objection or dissent is immediately crushed either by imprisonment or death. Totalitarianism in power is self-perpetuating and solely about keeping itself in power by preemptively removing large groups of people which is why it is so commonly historically linked with mass purges and genocide. Through this, the system neutralises all those who might question it. Totalitarians don't merely want people to obey. Totalitarians want people to believe, to worship the state/leader and its ideals and are willing to use terror, brainwashing, or whatever other psychological pressures they can apply to achieve that end. 

 

Yeah, but can you go down the pub?

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Guest Harrydc

Guest Harrydc

Posted
Posted

The government decides where I can go. 

 

The government decides what I can and can't wear. 

 

The government decides if I can see my family or not. 

 

The government decides if I can see my friends or not. 

 

The 'police have powers to break up unlawful gatherings'. 

 

I don't need fancy words to back up my views @Line-X. 

 

It's right in front of your eyes. If that doesn't sound 'totalitarian' to you then what does it sound like? 

 

For our own good?

 

Because let me tell you now - it's not done me any good. 

 

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