Disappointing really

[The whole world smiles]

Also in terms of Youri, I know he's the latest foxestalk whipping boy but this season but he has 5 goals and 7 assists and the team that sit in 3rd having made the semis and at least quarters in both cups. 

 

I find it hard to class that as disappointing. He has been inconsistent like everyone else (with the exception of Evans, Soyuncu and Ricardo) and the best is yet to come with him. 

[ozleicester]

9 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

Also in terms of Youri, I know he's the latest foxestalk whipping boy but this season but he has 5 goals and 7 assists and the team that sit in 3rd having made the semis and at least quarters in both cups. 

 

I find it hard to class that as disappointing. He has been inconsistent like everyone else (with the exception of Evans, Soyuncu and Ricardo) and the best is yet to come with him. 

My comments were not about a whipping boy, they were an honest opinion about players who were signed for MASSIVE amounts and whose,  i believe, current performances dont equal that spend.

 

His last league goal was in October...

If you are happy with Youri's current form and feel it matches his cost, then thats all good.

Edited 25 June 2020 by ozleicester

[Finnegan]

18 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

Also in terms of Youri, I know he's the latest foxestalk whipping boy but this season but he has 5 goals and 7 assists and the team that sit in 3rd having made the semis and at least quarters in both cups. 

 

I find it hard to class that as disappointing. He has been inconsistent like everyone else (with the exception of Evans, Soyuncu and Ricardo) and the best is yet to come with him. 

 

For a bit more context here, two things:

 

1. Like I said, people tend to expect more than they should from "creative" midfielders. The top assist providers are nearly always players that operate in wide areas and/or near exclusively in the final third. Full backs, wingers and modern forwards dominate the charts. 

 

2. With that in mind, only three centre mids have provided more assists in the Prem this year than YT. Two play for Man City, De Bruyne is way out on his own (and I think we can all agree he's on a level of his own), David Silva is the other and has two more assists than Tielemans. 

 

The only other centre midfielder in the league, and the one most comparable to YT, with more assists is Joao Moutinho who has one more. Moutinho is Wolves set piece taker. 

 

As an aside, only one Leicester player in any position has more PL assists than YT this year and that's Harvey Barnes. Oh and Madders is our set piece taker and has 3 which says a lot about our quality from corners. 

 

End of the day, YT is just a victim of his own success. He was in the literal form of his life during his loan spell, he was incredible. Very few people sustain that kind of form for long, when he turned up after the summer looking a bit more like his normal self, people got themselves all disappointed. But he's been good, tbh he's been everything you'd expect from a 40m player in 2019. 

Edited 25 June 2020 by Finnegan

[The whole world smiles]

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

My comments were not about a whipping boy, they were an honest opinion about players who were signed for MASSIVE amounts and whose,  i believe, current performances dont equal that spend.

 

His last league goal was in October...

If you are happy with Youri's current form and feel it matches his cost, then thats all good.

I wasn't saying you were making him a whipping boy or having a go at your post just foxestalk in general I relation to youri.

 

However How did you think we looked on Tuesday without his creativity in center midfield?

 

Also another stat for you outside of the top two sides who everybody agrees are massively ahead of the rest of the league we have only lost 4 games this season. And youri only started one of them. He wasn't in the side v Southampton home, Norwich away and Burnley away.

[Finnegan]

11 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

I wasn't saying you were making him a whipping boy or having a go at your post just foxestalk in general I relation to youri.

 

However How did you think we looked on Tuesday without his creativity in center midfield?

 

Also another stat for you outside of the top two sides who everybody agrees are massively ahead of the rest of the league we have only lost 4 games this season. And youri only started one of them. He wasn't in the side v Southampton home, Norwich away and Burnley away.

 

None of which is a coincidence. Every other midfielder we bring in to replace him changes our shape in both attack and defence. 

 

The People's Hero (not you Woolers) Dennis Praet is the worst for this. 

 

I really like Praet as a player, he's got a great skill set, he ups the tempo of a match, he's energetic and tidy, I think he'd do really well in the Perez role, I'd much rather him be out there than Albrighton as he was the other day. 

 

But he makes too many vertical runs, constantly pushes up, wants to operate higher up the pitch, neglects his duties collecting the ball from the centre backs and holding shape in front of the defence. 

 

When YT and Madders play together, one is always showing for the ball. Always. It's what keeps possession moving instead of being about the centre backs passing to each other relentlessly. 

 

That's not Praet's game. 

Edited 25 June 2020 by Finnegan

[Steve Earle]

2 hours ago, goose2010 said:

If you take the season as a whole they are playing better than I would had  hoped for. Top 4, League cup semi and still in the FA cup. It could yet be our second best season in our history. 

Fixed that for you

Edited 25 June 2020 by Steve Earle
Typo

[ozleicester]

28 minutes ago, The whole world smiles said:

I wasn't saying you were making him a whipping boy or having a go at your post just foxestalk in general I relation to youri.

 

However How did you think we looked on Tuesday without his creativity in center midfield?

 

Also another stat for you outside of the top two sides who everybody agrees are massively ahead of the rest of the league we have only lost 4 games this season. And youri only started one of them. He wasn't in the side v Southampton home, Norwich away and Burnley away.

I didnt see Tuesdays game, so i cant pass judgement. 

 

However, I am a huge YT fan and i want him to succeed as he is what can make our side great. But that doesnt change my opinion that he is not meeting his valuation thus far.

Edit. I hadnt intended this a s YT bash fest... My thought was about our less than successful tbig transfers..(excluding the 18/19 buys)

My point was that all of the talk about how great our upcoming transfers will be.... may be overestimated

Edited 25 June 2020 by ozleicester

[goose2010]

1 hour ago, Steve Earle said:

Fixed that for you

not really though.

[Nicolo Barella]

2 hours ago, The whole world smiles said:

Also in terms of Youri, I know he's the latest foxestalk whipping boy but this season but he has 5 goals and 7 assists and the team that sit in 3rd having made the semis and at least quarters in both cups. 

 

I find it hard to class that as disappointing. He has been inconsistent like everyone else (with the exception of Evans, Soyuncu and Ricardo) and the best is yet to come with him. 

I'm not unhappy with Tielemans at all and very prepared to give him time to turn things around, as young players' growth is rarely linear. However, he has the same amount of goals and PL assists this season as he had last season (3 goals, 5 assists), having played well over double the minutes. I'd say that at least to some extent, he has disappointed.

[The whole world smiles]

11 minutes ago, Nicolo Barella said:

I'm not unhappy with Tielemans at all and very prepared to give him time to turn things around, as young players' growth is rarely linear. However, he has the same amount of goals and PL assists this season as he had last season (3 goals, 5 assists), having played well over double the minutes. I'd say that at least to some extent, he has disappointed.

Yeah I suppose based on last season's form and the level of excitement I felt when we signed him I will conceed to being slightly disappointed.

 

However as already discussed lots of factors in play. I do feel his contribution was overated somewhat last season because we had played most the season with Mendy and Ndidi and I do feel his contribution this season has been underrated because of the hype of last last season and somewhat unrealistic expectations. But I think we all agree he is a fine young player who will go on to achieve a lot at city.

[themightyfin]

5 hours ago, goose2010 said:

If you take the season as a whole they are playing better than I would had  hoped for. Top 4, League cup semi and still in the FA cup. It's our second best season in our history. 

I think the 1963 team would have something to say about that. 

[AKCJ]

5 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Are they playing at the level you had hoped for pre season?

Way beyond what I hoped for personally.

[kingfox]

Wouldn’t say Youri has had a disappointing season, but he’s certainly had an average one. There’s been numerous times this season where I feel he’s been harshly criticised, but there’s been many times this season where he’s drifted out of games, and by 60 minutes he deserves to be substituted. When it comes to player ratings, I don’t think I’ve ever rated a player 6/10 as much as I have with Youri Tielemans this season. 
 

As for Ayoze Perez he is not a winger, simple as that and it frustrates me that Rodgers keeps persisting on playing him out wide. Perez should be playing the Okazaki role for us, not be shoved out on the right where he has little effect. Every time he has played in a front two he’s been absolutely brilliant, the majority of the time he has played on the right wing, he has had very little impact. Perez is very good when it comes to link up play around the 18 yard box; however shoving him out wide means he has to defend, and hold the ball up in certain areas that he doesn’t look comfortable in. When Perez is fed the ball 30-50 yards from goal, he usually gets swarmed and ends up giving the ball away.

 

We tend to play 4-2-3-1, but if we want to get the best out of Tielemans and Perez then I think 3-5-2 is our best formation 

[Greg2607]

29 minutes ago, themightyfin said:

I think the 1963 team would have something to say about that. 

don't see how they could be. Football wasn't invented then was it?? lol.

[fox_up_north]

I was having a chat with a Man City fan regarding signings the other day and I did some stat hunting. 

 

Perez is pretty much ahead of where he was for Newcastle. He's on 7 goals/ 4 assists out of 26 league appearances for us. For Newcastle, he mostly got similar numbers (last season being the outlier with 12 goals but only 2 assists) over the full season. If you were to say "have we bought the player that Newcastle had?" then, yes, we have. Pretty much in terms of stats. 

 

I still think he's a good player to have but we just spent too much money on him. As others said - he's a second striker or a kind of wide forward. He's not a winger in any sense. I'd actually like to see him in the Vardy role with Nacho behind him. 

 

Fundamentally - we need a bloody good winger. Still. 

[martyn]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

None of which is a coincidence. Every other midfielder we bring in to replace him changes our shape in both attack and defence. 

 

The People's Hero (not you Woolers) Dennis Praet is the worst for this. 

 

I really like Praet as a player, he's got a great skill set, he ups the tempo of a match, he's energetic and tidy, I think he'd do really well in the Perez role, I'd much rather him be out there than Albrighton as he was the other day. 

 

But he makes too many vertical runs, constantly pushes up, wants to operate higher up the pitch, neglects his duties collecting the ball from the centre backs and holding shape in front of the defence. 

 

When YT and Madders play together, one is always showing for the ball. Always. It's what keeps possession moving instead of being about the centre backs passing to each other relentlessly. 

 

That's not Praet's game. 

 

For me, having Maddison and Tielemans collecting the ball from the centre halves is an achilles heel, rather than a positive, and contributes to us having possession for possessions sake rather than looking to be progressive.

 

Earlier in the season these 2 spent their time far higher up the pitch, and the zippier tempo, interplay with 3 or 4 players in close proximity and a willingness to take a few risks in possession created spaces between the lines to exploit. Our centre backs were also more willing to try and nick possession in and around the half way line than we've seen recently, and our own press is much less efficient, so our ability to transition from turnovers high up the pitch has also lessened considerably.

 

Since the new year, our tempo starting games has been so sluggish, the ball doesn't move quickly enough, we've retreated deeper and we consequently struggle massively to beat any kind of sustained press. It's like any time we win the ball back, the players are under some kind of instruction to "reset" and our pattern of play is just so predictable. Confidence has a big part to play, no doubt, but a great season is in danger of ending calamitously unless we can somehow turn the tide, and do it now.

 

I'd like to see the whole team get pushed up the pitch again, encourage the centre halves to fizz balls into our midfield when they can, and try getting the little combinations going again that worked well earlier in the year. Maddison and Tielemans are both good players, but they aren't creative geniuses who can consistently create something from nothing, they need to operate in a system and a tempo which creates pockets of space in which they can thrive. We had it, and now we don't.

Edited 25 June 2020 by martyn

[Finnegan]

The thing with having them both playing @martyn is that they alternate. Someone posted a great video about this months ago when Rodgers started here, might have been Stadt or Strider, explaining how we use the two of them in alternating 10/8. One drops, takes the ball from the defence and looks to push on and the other pushes up in to the space.

 

That zippy play you're talking about is exactly what happens when we play that way, how we were at the start of the year wasn't them both pushing up at all. 

 

The biggest defining change from Puel to Rodgers and the biggest improvement was Rodgers bringing Maddison deeper to get him involved more often. Under Puel he did exactly what we had him doing against Brighton the other day, neglecting his duties, standing miles up the pitch and never getting the ball. 

 

[waylander]

6 hours ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Most the decent players we currently have were signed by Claude 

Mmmm very interesting and true 😱😱😱😱

[martyn]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

The thing with having them both playing @martyn is that they alternate. Someone posted a great video about this months ago when Rodgers started here, might have been Stadt or Strider, explaining how we use the two of them in alternating 10/8. One drops, takes the ball from the defence and looks to push on and the other pushes up in to the space.

 

That zippy play you're talking about is exactly what happens when we play that way, how we were at the start of the year wasn't them both pushing up at all. 

 

The biggest defining change from Puel to Rodgers and the biggest improvement was Rodgers bringing Maddison deeper to get him involved more often. Under Puel he did exactly what we had him doing against Brighton the other day, neglecting his duties, standing miles up the pitch and never getting the ball. 

 

They were playing higher up the pitch by default as a virtue of our more aggressive press and us compressing the game much higher up the pitch than we are now doing. We were dictating a games tempo.

 

What we are seeing now is that our system is isolating our players as the team has dropped deeper, and the gaps between defence and midfield, and the midfield and Vardy are bigger. The options simply aren't there for players to successfully counter a high press and actually progress the ball up the pitch.

 

There were a number of times Maddison dropped deep against Brighton to collect the ball. It invariably ended up with it being laid off to a centre half or a full back. Earlier in the season, he'd be collecting the ball in areas on the half turn where he could actually look to create.

 

 

Edited 25 June 2020 by martyn

[Plastik Man]

8 hours ago, Shane said:

Really liked our 19/20 window! 
 

James Justin - Cheap buy for someone with great potential

 

Youri - Ok he hasn’t hit the heights of 18/19. But has anyone noticed he’s playing a bit deeper recently and Madders in more of a 10 role? Youri is at his best when he’s in the final third hitting through balls. He needs to be playing further up the pitch. Still young and will improve.

 

Praet - One of the best all round midfielders we’ve had since Drinkwater in 15/16. 
 

Perez - I think people are a bit harsh on Ayoze. Long term I can see him being an important squad player for us capable of covering RW/ST/CAM. 

Funnily enough, in the Watford game it looked like YT was getting forward more and it was Maddison coming deeper to fetch the ball.

 

Vut they are both playing as 8s when their natural inclination is probably to be in a more advanced role. 

 

Maddison now sees himself as an 8, when he joined is he probably considered himself more of a 10.  They are both playing the role required of them, and with Maddison it's also what Southgate wants for England. 

 

The demands of their positions is probably having an effect on both. It's our creativity which is suffering presently, and there's still a better balance needed in the wide players. Barnes has the most potential, which he is showing in bursts, but still has the inconsistency of youth. 

 

And lets not forget YT and Maddison are only a year older, yet bear the great responsibility of creativity for the team largely on their shoulders. 

[Manwell Pablo]

13 hours ago, Finnegan said:

We're top four in the league, Perez and Tielemans played a massive, massive part in carrying us there. If you don't see their value in our early season form or if you're somehow blaming our slump on them then you just don't actually understand the game. 

Tielemans yes hot and cold but brilliant at times, daft to call him out.
 

Perez probably hasn’t been any worse than I expected but then I knew we’d over paid for him when we signed him. Not exactly pulled up trees has he.

[Lambert09]

Perhaps he's not perfect but we dont win without YT in the side. 

[Finnegan]

57 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

Tielemans yes hot and cold but brilliant at times, daft to call him out.
 

Perez probably hasn’t been any worse than I expected but then I knew we’d over paid for him when we signed him. Not exactly pulled up trees has he.

 

No he hasn't but I was expecting muck tbh and didn't think he'd really play much. I never bought in to the idea he was meant to be our super high profile winger signing. 

 

He's done better than I imagined. I like his link up play tbh. 

[Manwell Pablo]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

No he hasn't but I was expecting muck tbh and didn't think he'd really play much. I never bought in to the idea he was meant to be our super high profile winger signing. 

 

He's done better than I imagined. I like his link up play tbh. 

Well no neither did I, I think if you watch football it was always a bit of an eye brow raiser of a signing.
 

He did fit the fluidity of the team back when we were winning every game but I think he benefited from playing behind Ricardo no end and  I get the criticism, it was a lot of money for a player to keep attacks ticking rather than one that offers a persistent goal threat. We need some flamboyance out wide, Barnes will come on but is just direct and raw at the moment and the rest of our wingers have their strengths but aren’t top six wingers and we need to correct that if we want to remain a side that qualifies for Europe through the league route regularly which is surely the aim now.

 

 

[Nicolo Barella]

14 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

For a bit more context here, two things:

 

1. Like I said, people tend to expect more than they should from "creative" midfielders. The top assist providers are nearly always players that operate in wide areas and/or near exclusively in the final third. Full backs, wingers and modern forwards dominate the charts. 

 

2. With that in mind, only three centre mids have provided more assists in the Prem this year than YT. Two play for Man City, De Bruyne is way out on his own (and I think we can all agree he's on a level of his own), David Silva is the other and has two more assists than Tielemans. 

 

The only other centre midfielder in the league, and the one most comparable to YT, with more assists is Joao Moutinho who has one more. Moutinho is Wolves set piece taker. 

 

As an aside, only one Leicester player in any position has more PL assists than YT this year and that's Harvey Barnes. Oh and Madders is our set piece taker and has 3 which says a lot about our quality from corners. 

 

End of the day, YT is just a victim of his own success. He was in the literal form of his life during his loan spell, he was incredible. Very few people sustain that kind of form for long, when he turned up after the summer looking a bit more like his normal self, people got themselves all disappointed. But he's been good, tbh he's been everything you'd expect from a 40m player in 2019. 

He was £32 million apparently