Premier League 2020/21 Thread

[Facecloth]

Just now, Dan LCFC said:

This is a question that isn't asked often enough. I'm fed up of it in truth. It's a serious problem that's been devalued by people who have an agenda to call for it - which in turn actually creates more problems.

I've actually written on here before about people using the "race card" to easily. I know itcauses problems, and I don't think I'm doing it here. I have no agenda to call for it and it pisses me off as much as anyone else.

 

There is obviously no evidence Souness is racist, he's unlikely to sit in a sky studio and say someone is lazy or troublesome because they are black, but he can imply it.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

On the topic, great article here regards Souness criticism of Pogba and the perceived source 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/paul-pogba-graeme-souness-criticism-manchester-united-news-a9467841.html%3famp

So if lazy talented players piss him off why is one so much of a target that a paper felt the need to write an article on it? Could it be that for some other reason Souness is targeting Pogba more than others?

[CosbehFox]

Just now, Facecloth said:

So if lazy talented players piss him off why is one so much of a target that a paper felt the need to write an article on it? Could it be that for some other reason Souness is targeting Pogba more than others?

Because as one of Sky’s lead pundits he unsurprisingly covers a lot of Man United games. Therefore he comments on Pogba’s performances which have (and surely no one can argue) this widely inconsistent and not worthy of their financial outlay on him. 

[Aus Fox]

19 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

So if lazy talented players piss him off why is one so much of a target that a paper felt the need to write an article on it? Could it be that for some other reason Souness is targeting Pogba more than others?

Paul Pogba is the most expensive player in the history of the richest league in the world - therefore comes under more scrutiny and more criticism. 

[Aus Fox]

27 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

So if lazy talented players piss him off why is one so much of a target that a paper felt the need to write an article on it? Could it be that for some other reason Souness is targeting Pogba more than others?

Honestly if the only thing you can see that’s different about Pogba to other players is the colour of his skin, then I think you might need to look closer to home for the subconscious bias.

[Dan LCFC]

33 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I've actually written on here before about people using the "race card" to easily. I know itcauses problems, and I don't think I'm doing it here. I have no agenda to call for it and it pisses me off as much as anyone else.

 

There is obviously no evidence Souness is racist, he's unlikely to sit in a sky studio and say someone is lazy or troublesome because they are black, but he can imply it.

But this is kind of the problem in itself. It's a serious problem and we're making an assumption on Souness because of something he might 'subconsciously' think. Tying everything to racism, for me, in the bigger picture doesn't actually help. Not necessarily you but it's just the in thing to do at the minute. It's like Sterling as well - he has been victimised by the media, no doubt about it, but he's not the first England player to go through that. It wasn't necessarily racism.

[fuchsntf]

The issue with ex-players being pundits,. more so After Jimmy Hill, ( probably the first) Greavsie & St John,and then our Gary,the football Shows became within the last 20 years as Football became has more of TV Outlet more than ever,und TV Sports Channels have become big/massive outlets,then it was obvious,the fans would rightly want and demand ex-players & managers sitting in as their Panel experts....Footballers are still "just One of the lads", all with varying standards of

education. It wasnt and isnt in the media interest to Polish these People into media experts. They in fact,we prefer them to present the nitty-gritty of football at seen from their level....

Why on a football forum,do we decide to "mob" them..!! Of course they are Bias to their ex-clubs & the  Ethos they grew up with..

They are also fans..!!

Plus they have a learnt an intensive belief how for 'their' lives they have to be mentality disciplined

and loyal to their peers when in that Sporting bubble...

 

It also solved a problem,  what to do  with all those ex-players, well those now richer  footballing organisations, quite rightly

offered them Work at various levels and within their wide job-network. Pundits,Football panels being One of the options...

.Ex-clubs take some on as advisors or scouts..

 

You want to be successfull at that PL--Championship Level , then those hard yards do take you that extra  bit further...You might Not like all your teammates,but you all Pull on the same string if you want to Play & Stay at the top,with One of those highlighted Top teams,

plus you take on their ethos and character....that then  follows the chain up & down the leagues levels.

This attitude towards your given sport,helps you to reach either that highest level, or your own accepted level.

 

What it doesnt do is make you a Media darling,or a fans star favourite panellist......AND SO IT SHOULDNT....we dont want Robots.

Majority of pundits have had successful top careers, and they dont express the same opinions...!!!, or react the same...

like the fans they all have their own opinions and the pundits  react /discuss according to what is fed them to present.

I Enjoy listening to all their thoughts/opinions ,whether it matches mine is totally immaterial,if I find it hogwash, over bias, over zealous ,

its all Part and Partial of any  TV / Journal presentation or debate.

If it becomes too annoying, I make a tea, fetch a beer, or turn over.

 

The last thing that interests me is to phsyco-analyse or hang on every word or sentence that a Bloody Football pundit might utter.

No matter how I might have respected him on the field.

I Love the small talk on Team selection ,form and the 2  sides clubs players.

Over indulgent statistics leave me cold, I just Love those 90+ minutes just for what they are..

 

I dont need stats when I Watch any lads or lasses playing on the fields....errors, mistakes is part of the game.So why bother

Following the negatives in life or sport,is not my past-time..I prefer to concentrate & enjoy those good moments.

Poor selection doesn't exsist...those guys who get into the team to Play behind the badge, thats my days entertainment..

If they f*+ck it up..!!!  Heyho there is always tomorrow.

Every player,every manager or coach has a long lead by me,before I start rubbishing them... Now refs,thats an Encyclopedia for itself...!

 

Football is really so simple....and yet it can rip your heart out..!!  You can easy say Cheers to your wife if she leaves, but you just cant say cheers,thats it..!!  to your Football club...

Religion,politics,Jobs,habits,hobbies are all fine, but nothing really compares,to those emotions towards your Football club

 

Then those pundits/panelists just Stay that occasional annoying /entertaining fly in the room.....!!

 

 

Edited 20 September 2020 by fuchsntf

[Facecloth]

4 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Because as one of Sky’s lead pundits he unsurprisingly covers a lot of Man United games. Therefore he comments on Pogba’s performances which have (and surely no one can argue) this widely inconsistent and not worthy of their financial outlay on him. 

As a main pundit he does a lot of everyone's games, but i don't see him singling out other players even when they aren't in the team.

[Facecloth]

6 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

Honestly if the only thing you can see that’s different about Pogba to other players is the colour of his skin, then I think you might need to look closer to home for the subconscious bias.

So the fact its not just Pogba is going to be ignored. The fact he sat there and made a ton of baseless assumptions about Moise Kean being lazy and troublesome. He's also questioned the attitude of Alli, Sturridge, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain in the past, the last two being two of the most honest players you'll find.

 

What the difference between Ozil and Pogba other than race then? Both expensive, both on high wages, both barely played for year, both inconsistent when they do, both have a lazy playing style. Yes he's criticised them both, but Pogba more often, and also when he isn't even playing. 

 

EDIT: Also worth noting, this all started from someone claiming Evra was only on sky because hes black.

Edited 20 September 2020 by Facecloth

[Facecloth]

4 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

But this is kind of the problem in itself. It's a serious problem and we're making an assumption on Souness because of something he might 'subconsciously' think. Tying everything to racism, for me, in the bigger picture doesn't actually help. Not necessarily you but it's just the in thing to do at the minute. It's like Sterling as well - he has been victimised by the media, no doubt about it, but he's not the first England player to go through that. It wasn't necessarily racism.

I agree with you to some extent we shouldn't tie everything to race. Pundits should feel like the can criticise black players equally to white. On the Sterling thing, I don't think everything bad about him in the papers is down to his race, but people have pointed out the occasional difference in tone when talking about black and white players, which again whilst not being overtly racist do point towards a subconscious bias. Below isn't about Sterling, but shows a prime example. The headline on the left misses the detail that this house was for his mum too, the headline on the right fails to mention he hadn't started a Premier league game either at that point.

 

Look at the Mail headline about Sterling after England were knocked out of euro 2016, talking about his obscene, vulgar house he'd brought for his mum and how he didnt seem to care about England going out. Then look at how Harry Maguires arrest in Greece was covered days after man utd were knocked out of Europe. Sympathy, and talking it down.

[Facecloth]

I'm assuming having thrown £40m at the signing of Jota, Liverpool are no longer in for Sarr. They don't need £80m of back up wingers on the bench, especially when they seemed so keen on promoting youth players last year.

[los dedos]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

I agree with you to some extent we shouldn't tie everything to race. Pundits should feel like the can criticise black players equally to white. On the Sterling thing, I don't think everything bad about him in the papers is down to his race, but people have pointed out the occasional difference in tone when talking about black and white players, which again whilst not being overtly racist do point towards a subconscious bias. Below isn't about Sterling, but shows a prime example. The headline on the left misses the detail that this house was for his mum too, the headline on the right fails to mention he hadn't started a Premier league game either at that point.

 

Look at the Mail headline about Sterling after England were knocked out of euro 2016, talking about his obscene, vulgar house he'd brought for his mum and how he didnt seem to care about England going out. Then look at how Harry Maguires arrest in Greece was covered days after man utd were knocked out of Europe. Sympathy, and talking it down.

You're not wrong, but I always felt him daring to leave Liverpool for Man City upset a lot of the pro Liverpool journalist and they rewarded him with more negative write ups than usual. 

[fox_up_north]

The Sterling stuff definitely does have a racist bent. I remember some articles going around suggesting he was a "violent thug" (in so many words) because of a gun tattoo on his leg.

 

So much so he had to point out his dad was shot and killed, so he has that tattoo to essentially say he does his shooting with his feet and tries to be positive.

 

Too early for me to find links. Not had my coffee yet! 

[HighPeakFox]

If this forum has taught me anything, it is that trying to argue from the point of view of confidently projecting others' sub-conscious state is very difficult indeed.

 

Just realised this could look like a veiled dig at @Facecloth, which it most certainly is not. It's just a tremendously difficult subject matter, and although I have an opinion on it, there are a lot of points being made here that I might not agree with, but can fully understand and respect.

 

Sorry to sit on the fence so, but even matters of race are not entirely (sorry) always black & white. I have had my own experiences of both sides of the argument, and I have learnt that just when you think you're clear about something like this, you find out that you're actually still ignorant. I won't go further here, but it is just deeply complex.

Edited 20 September 2020 by HighPeakFox

[RumbleFox]

Am I the only one who doesn’t think Everton look amazing? West Brom are very poor and until the sending off it looked a pretty even contest? Even after that they still looked pretty shaky at the back? I dunno, maybe I’m wrong but I think better teams will trouble them. X 

[st albans fox]

2 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I'm assuming having thrown £40m at the signing of Jota, Liverpool are no longer in for Sarr. They don't need £80m of back up wingers on the bench, especially when they seemed so keen on promoting youth players last year.

Didn’t bear say it was because Watford wanted the dosh upfront ??

[Facecloth]

Just now, st albans fox said:

Didn’t bear say it was because Watford wanted the dosh upfront ??

Didn't see that post.

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

Am I the only one who doesn’t think Everton look amazing? West Brom are very poor and until the sending off it looked a pretty even contest? Even after that they still looked pretty shaky at the back? I dunno, maybe I’m wrong but I think better teams will trouble them. X 

Won’t disagree with you but each week that they win (or at least dont lose)  their confidence goes up a notch and we know how that goes .....

[Leeds Fox]

2 hours ago, Facecloth said:

So the fact its not just Pogba is going to be ignored. The fact he sat there and made a ton of baseless assumptions about Moise Kean being lazy and troublesome. He's also questioned the attitude of Alli, Sturridge, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain in the past, the last two being two of the most honest players you'll find.

 

What the difference between Ozil and Pogba other than race then? Both expensive, both on high wages, both barely played for year, both inconsistent when they do, both have a lazy playing style. Yes he's criticised them both, but Pogba more often, and also when he isn't even playing. 

 

EDIT: Also worth noting, this all started from someone claiming Evra was only on sky because hes black.

Maybe it’s just that Sousness is ‘old-school’ and doesn’t like how Pogba is on social media etc. That’s a big difference between Ozil and Pogba. 
 

Might not be the case but it might be why he doesn’t like/respect him. 

[Facecloth]

8 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

Maybe it’s just that Sousness is ‘old-school’ and doesn’t like how Pogba is on social media etc. That’s a big difference between Ozil and Pogba. 
 

Might not be the case but it might be why he doesn’t like/respect him. 

So if that the case how do we explain his targeting other black players mentioned over their attitude, two of whom I don't think have been anything other model pros. And his character assassination of Kean that had absolutely no basis and was just completely made up in his head.

[st albans fox]

10 minutes ago, Leeds Fox said:

Maybe it’s just that Sousness is ‘old-school’ and doesn’t like how Pogba is on social media etc. That’s a big difference between Ozil and Pogba. 
 

Might not be the case but it might be why he doesn’t like/respect him. 

Ozil is way lower profile than pogba. he’s not relevant any longer .....

[twister]

Moyes cost west ham the game last night with sub

 

sending yarmolenko out on the right to track saka was all wrong , the second arsenal goal is one of the worst pieces of team defending you will see all season

 

fredericks gets attracted to the ball with saka, yarmolenko doesn't make a proper attempt to  track Dani and its a easy goal.

 

As somebody who has played sunday football, that would be considered bad even at that level. He should of had a worker like lanzini or even changed the system.Its moyes in game management that leaves a lot to be desired since he leaves everton because he set up the team well last night.

 

 

[Jacnah]

8 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

This is a question that isn't asked often enough. I'm fed up of it in truth. It's a serious problem that's been devalued by people who have an agenda to call for it - which in turn actually creates more problems.

depends how you define racism - which is a moving target at the moment. Obvious racism is easy. Any sensible human should be against it and it should be called out every time and everywhere. The issues start to come when its not obvious to all or even most people. I think there is is a lot of projection

[ALC Fox]

10 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Do we have hard evidence of the racism? 
 

Cos let’s face it Pogba is wildly inconsistent. The Kean stuff was harsh but as it still stands, he’s not made the breakthrough - worth noting Souness did work in Italy as a player and manager, so maybe be subject to something we don’t know.
 

Souness has managed abroad in Turkey and Portugal. In that latter role at Portugal, he signed three black players to Benfica. He’s had a wider experience than most of his fellow pundits. He broke through religion prejudices by famously signing a Catholic for Rangers. 

 

I think it’s too easy to label him a racist tbh. 

Fully appreciate all of that, but Big Ron also famously signed and worked with many black players but then called Marcel Dessailly a lazy n-word when he thought he was off air.

 

I'm not saying Souness is the same and his relatively recently aired views on LGBT issues shows he's not a dinosaur when it comes to certain social issues.

 

I'm also sure that Souness doesn't ever intend to say racist things or intentionally hold racist views. But it is possible for people who aren't racists to occasionally say racist things without realising it.

 

Calling black players 'lazy' and intimating that they have attitude problems are racist tropes and are, ironically, lazy assumptions to make. If you're going to make accusations like that, they need to be based on hard evidence. You can't go round calling people lazy and not back it up.

 

But making those assumptions may not make you a racist, it may just be a subconscious racist thought you had. If you're human enough to recognise that and learn from it, then it's an opportunity to learn and grow as a person.

 

By Souness's own admission, attending Brighton Pride opened his eyes and helped him grow as a person, so he certainly seems capable of doing that on other issues too.

[casablancas]

Ok. I have one comment. Racism is rife in English football and more so is inequality and discrimination. Show me a top BAME manager coach across the top 2 leagues? A BAME referee? I mean just look at the reaction Sian Massey got when she first appeared in the English game? Yet she’s become for me one of the better linesperson. I think this discussion Is important and I openly admire to being a BLM advocate and have spoken strongly on it before. I have had many a call out with posters on here. But the rhetoric of BAME / female pundit being picked to fill ‘quotas’ needs to shift. We need to change the culture of football. The fact that people think sky and the like are doing this to fill a quota shows exactly where we went wrong. Perhaps a ‘quota’ is needed because of a lack of opportunity for BAME? It’s a well known fact society in general has in not so recent past (to my own shame) the past been extraordinarily discriminatory. So because of people of a BAME decent being held back for so long as a people (yes there are odd individual success stories) that now positive discrimination is the only way forward! Has anyone who’s against it actually thought about why it’s on place? As for the original argument. I don’t know if Souness is a racist as I do not know. But he’s a sh1te pundit and a miserable tw@. But the reaction to the change of sky’s soccer Saturday pundits and the sh1t that went with it goes to show how backwards some football fans are, I certainly include some of our fans in that and others from here whom I have had open and frank discussions with over the BML protests and other threads. But I think we all need to accept that racism and discrimination is rife. But can we back to football please? @Facecloth I gave up trying to change opinions on here a while ago. That was despite providing statistics which backed up my narrative. But I still do my bit and still fly my banner promoting BLM and have a face mask with pro BLM slogans on it. Funnily enough I have had run ins with knuckle draggers routinely. Even some coont asked the banner to be removed, I was so in awe of the request that once I processed the thoughts and reflected  it I felt nothing but an overwhelming pity for the waste of oxygen. That blind to the need for change during a time like this??? Poor poor lad.