2020/21 Under 23's, U19's, Development ... thread

[casablancas]

Thiago looks a player   although it is men against boys 

[sacreblueits442]

12 minutes ago, AjcW said:

This Villa Liverpool game should serve as an education for anyone not placing faith in our management team to know best when it comes to people being ready for the first team.

 

Even the villa lads who were brilliant for 60 mins are absolutely on their arse now. 90 minutes at U23 level is eventually 60 at elite level. 
 

That why the best of the best go out on loans to develop that professional match sharpness. Problem is some aren’t even ready for that (build, strength, stamina etc) so they get stuck for a few extra years. 
 

Trust the process. We’ll get one or two gems come through every couple of years. 

....I get your point, but this is Liverpool we are talking about!!!

With their style of play, there will be a tremendous amount of fitness allowing them to maintain a level few can contain or match in respect of stamina. Just take a look at the amount of games won in the later part of games Liverpool play, they wear you down mentally and physically which has no bearing on the use of Academy players elite or not.

  If you choose to use Academy players in a game such as this then that is a misjudgment on Villas part, and should expect that they would struggle to match Liverpool's strength.

  I am not sure your example helps your argument.

[AjcW]

4 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

 

  If you choose to use Academy players in a game such as this then that is a misjudgment on Villas part, and should expect that they would struggle to match Liverpool's strength.

  I am not sure your example helps your argument.

What on earth are you on about? Villa didn’t have a choice. That’s my point, look at the actual fitness levels of U23/U18 player... even the ones who might get in the villa squad this season were shattered after an hour. 
 

So it helps highlight why, we for example, hold back players who seem like big prospects. Because they need to develop professional match fitness first. 
 

It’s the reason the U23 leagues are a joke system really. 
 

 

[Staff]

13 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

....I get your point, but this is Liverpool we are talking about!!!

With their style of play, there will be a tremendous amount of fitness allowing them to maintain a level few can contain or match in respect of stamina. Just take a look at the amount of games won in the later part of games Liverpool play, they wear you down mentally and physically which has no bearing on the use of Academy players elite or not.

  If you choose to use Academy players in a game such as this then that is a misjudgment on Villas part, and should expect that they would struggle to match Liverpool's strength.

  I am not sure your example helps your argument.

You mean from their inhalers, right? 👀

[sacreblueits442]

8 minutes ago, AjcW said:

What on earth are you on about? Villa didn’t have a choice. That’s my point, look at the actual fitness levels of U23/U18 player... even the ones who might get in the villa squad this season were shattered after an hour. 
 

So it helps highlight why, we for example, hold back players who seem like big prospects. Because they need to develop professional match fitness first. 
 

It’s the reason the U23 leagues are a joke system really. 
 

 

...just noticed on news that Villa decimated by Covid!!!

Fair play to them for playing the fixture, it was never going to be anything but a defeat, the only proviso would have been by how much.

[AjcW]

Quite like this from Warnock, calling for the reserve league to return..... minus the 'all they do is pass pass pass' bit... which is just his personal preference  

 

“Look at Derby this afternoon. You can’t have U23s now, bloody pass, pass, pass. That’s all they're taught.

“You don’t learn how to play the game.

“I don’t think it’s worked for years because they get taught the wrong principles.

“I think we’ve got to go back to reserve model where you can have the lads from the first team who aren’t playing, play against the young players.

“It would mean there’s not such a big difference in the jump from the 23s to the first team.

“I think it’s just jobs for the boys me, the 23s.

“It’s hard to improve and I don’t think there’s any progression in that system with the way it works at the moment.”

[davieG]

1 hour ago, AjcW said:

Quite like this from Warnock, calling for the reserve league to return..... minus the 'all they do is pass pass pass' bit... which is just his personal preference  

 

“Look at Derby this afternoon. You can’t have U23s now, bloody pass, pass, pass. That’s all they're taught.

“You don’t learn how to play the game.

“I don’t think it’s worked for years because they get taught the wrong principles.

“I think we’ve got to go back to reserve model where you can have the lads from the first team who aren’t playing, play against the young players.

“It would mean there’s not such a big difference in the jump from the 23s to the first team.

“I think it’s just jobs for the boys me, the 23s.

“It’s hard to improve and I don’t think there’s any progression in that system with the way it works at the moment.”

Been saying that for years. The u23s is not real football. 

[AjcW]

32 minutes ago, davieG said:

Been saying that for years. The u23s is not real football. 

Another interesting aspect of bringing back a reserve league would mean it could be good breading ground for young coaches/ex players... rather than jobs for the boys like Warnock mentions 

[messerschmitt]

Does anyone know if Wednesday's EFL Tranmere V Leicester U21 is being shown anywhere, no mention on LCFC TV.

[CloudFox]

Interesting mini-thread of thoughts from Dean Hammond on our U23s...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 January 2021 by CloudFox

[UniFox21]

29 minutes ago, CloudFox said:

Interesting mini-thread of thoughts from Dean Hammond on our U23s...

 

 

 

 

 

The Beaglehole comments being the most interesting given the stick many of us give him on here 

[Foxy-Lady]

On 08/01/2021 at 21:51, AjcW said:

What on earth are you on about? Villa didn’t have a choice. That’s my point, look at the actual fitness levels of U23/U18 player... even the ones who might get in the villa squad this season were shattered after an hour. 
 

So it helps highlight why, we for example, hold back players who seem like big prospects. Because they need to develop professional match fitness first. 
 

It’s the reason the U23 leagues are a joke system really. 
 

 

Not sure i entirely agree with your logic here???

This is about U23s as individuals and not teams.  I don't think people have ever seriously suggested U23 teams could compete against PL or even the championship teams so fielding an entire eleven U23 players was always going to put a strain on even the best and fittest of them...especially against Liverpool's first team!.

 

However, if you put 2,3 or 4 of the best U23 players into a senior team alongside physically stronger players, their fitness levels would probably not be exhausted so quickly as the senior players would be carrying a far greater share of the burden than the weaker players who they play with in their U23 team

 

As an example, if you put Ndidi into Villas U23s and asked him to play Liverpools first X1, do you not think Wilf would also be blowing out his a*** after 70 mins as a result of all the extra work he would be having to do to cover for the weaker players?  Would that make him unfit....or just exhausted by the extra workload that he wouldn't normally be expected to carry?

 

There is a big difference between "holding back a player" and developing their fitness.

Developing their fitness can be achieved at the same time as increasing and managing their game time...with the added benefit that it simultaneously exposes them to first team football.

[AjcW]

3 hours ago, CloudFox said:

Interesting mini-thread of thoughts from Dean Hammond on our U23s...

 

 

 

 

 

I like Dean, comes across as intelligent and someone who might make a good coach for us. However...

 

It's tricky to take him saying 'Steve/LCFC has got it spot on" when we literally gave Hammond minutes in our U23's ahead of potential prospects... just because we like him.

[AjcW]

48 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Not sure i entirely agree with your logic here???

This is about U23s as individuals and not teams.  I don't think people have ever seriously suggested U23 teams could compete against PL or even the championship teams so fielding an entire eleven U23 players was always going to put a strain on even the best and fittest of them...especially against Liverpool's first team!.

 

However, if you put 2,3 or 4 of the best U23 players into a senior team alongside physically stronger players, their fitness levels would probably not be exhausted so quickly as the senior players would be carrying a far greater share of the burden than the weaker players who they play with in their U23 team

 

As an example, if you put Ndidi into Villas U23s and asked him to play Liverpools first X1, do you not think Wilf would also be blowing out his a*** after 70 mins as a result of all the extra work he would be having to do to cover for the weaker players?  Would that make him unfit....or just exhausted by the extra workload that he wouldn't normally be expected to carry?

 

There is a big difference between "holding back a player" and developing their fitness.

Developing their fitness can be achieved at the same time as increasing and managing their game time...with the added benefit that it simultaneously exposes them to first team football.

 

I think you've made some great points there, it's another one of those 'I wish we really knew what went on' situations for me. But whilst we don't I think it's hard to form a completely solid argument either way, so there's a good chance half of what i've said (and what you've said) is nonsense compared to the truth.

 

I just think if we brought back reserve leagues or 'B Teams' we would be in a better position. When we played Brentford in the cup last season, they fielded their 'B Team' as they refuse to use the U23/U18 leagues in favour of their own model. That day we came up against a strong side of young talent with great fitness levels. For the most part they play mens non league sides and Premier League reserve teams behind closed doors. 

 

I personally think if we had a 'reserve' team instead, you'd have 7 or 8 of our best prospects, playing with those in the first team who don't make it off the bench or into the squad and playing against Premier League reserve teams with a similar make up. With that you'd end up with higher fitness levels, players learning from those in the first team and players coming up against opposition that is much tougher and more competitive. 

Of course that means not as many U23's will get game time, however those who are already at a good enough level should be out on loan or training with the first team and considered one of the first team group who would drop down to play reserve matches. 

 

It also means we could call upon the likes of Hamza and Danny Ward if Kasper got injured, and not have to worry about their match sharpness as much from the get go. First Team players Saturday or Sunday, reserves play Sunday or Monday. Means that anyone who plays reserves could be fit enough to sit on the bench for a midweek game. 

 

Keep the U18 level the same, FA Youth Cup etc, that's excellent... but the middle ground at present is just a joke of a system that needs fixing.

Edited 12 January 2021 by AjcW

[davieG]

36 minutes ago, pmcla26 said:

They should go back to U21 instead of U23 and then have an additional B team, rather than one or the other. The U23s is too old for some younger players to be allowed game time to develop and too poor of a standard for B teams. Considering the amount of players on professional clubs' books these days, I think many teams would make the most of this approach and be able to run a competitive U21s and reserves.

 

Teams could also opt to be involved in one or the other, that way no one is being forced to all follow one model or follow the other, but then obviously they can cross reserves and u21 in friendly fixtures. 

 

It would be nice if we had a large reserve league that ran in parallel to the Premier League and EFL and B/reserve sides didn't take other teams places in the pyramid.

We used to have one the Football Combination League until the PL got their greedy hands over everything.

[davieG]

1 hour ago, pmcla26 said:

Bit before my time unfortunately... just doesn't make sense to me why there isn't one yet so many clubs/players in England and people falling out from the game and being dumped on the scrap pile. 

You'd think it would have avoided Praet pulling his hamstring if he'd been able to keep match fit.

[Lambert09]

22 hours ago, AjcW said:

Another interesting aspect of bringing back a reserve league would mean it could be good breading ground for young coaches/ex players... rather than jobs for the boys like Warnock mentions 

I dont understand. Why would a reserves team not be managed by someone who got a 'jobs for the boys' gig? Im not sure it would make a difference would it?

 

Is it more because the senior players would expect a more qualified coach? Wouldnt change anything for us, Bealehole would still manage them

 

3 hours ago, AjcW said:

I like Dean, comes across as intelligent and someone who might make a good coach for us. However...

 

It's tricky to take him saying 'Steve/LCFC has got it spot on" when we literally gave Hammond minutes in our U23's ahead of potential prospects... just because we like him.

 

Yes, thats partly why but it was also probably seen as a benefit to the youngsters on the field with him. Having a senior pro play with you will make you raise your game, he would offer them a lot of guidance and demand more from them. If the right personalities are littered in a reserve team, less get a shot but the ones that play could gain more from it. 

 

With the under 23 set up, we start 7/8 players that the club dont expect to ever make it. So using it to help them learn from those around is worth it imo. Its just the reality of it unforuntately.

 

To get a real measure for the difference in ability is Gray. He looked miles ahead of everyone in the team when he played yet he has never been good enough for us. Which shows the gulf in first team and U23's

 

Edited 12 January 2021 by Lambert09

[Lambert09]

Sorry for the double post but a reserve team also leads to more of the players actually going out on loan earlier. Because there are less spots for over 18s the good ones are likely to be sent out to lower leagues at 19 rather than 22. 

[Gary Eatfood]

On 11/01/2021 at 19:38, messerschmitt said:

Does anyone know if Wednesday's EFL Tranmere V Leicester U21 is being shown anywhere, no mention on LCFC TV.

Tranmere are streaming it on their website but it'll cost you a tenner.

 

https://www.tranmererovers.co.uk/matches/first-team-fixtures/first-team/202021/january/tranmere-rovers-vs-leicester-city-u21-on-13-jan-21/

[Foxy-Lady]

17 hours ago, Lambert09 said:

I dont understand. Why would a reserves team not be managed by someone who got a 'jobs for the boys' gig? Im not sure it would make a difference would it?

 

Is it more because the senior players would expect a more qualified coach? Wouldnt change anything for us, Bealehole would still manage them

 

 

Yes, thats partly why but it was also probably seen as a benefit to the youngsters on the field with him. Having a senior pro play with you will make you raise your game, he would offer them a lot of guidance and demand more from them. If the right personalities are littered in a reserve team, less get a shot but the ones that play could gain more from it. 

 

With the under 23 set up, we start 7/8 players that the club dont expect to ever make it. So using it to help them learn from those around is worth it imo. Its just the reality of it unforuntately.

 

To get a real measure for the difference in ability is Gray. He looked miles ahead of everyone in the team when he played yet he has never been good enough for us. Which shows the gulf in first team and U23's

 

 some good points you're making there which i fully agree with.....notably the fact that U23 and younger ACademy age group consist of 7/8 players that are never going to make it.

But these "filler" players are essential to aid the development of the 3/4 identified with potential so i'm not sure we should measure the gulf between 1st team and U23s based on these "filler" players Vs Damari Gray?

 

Personally, im not convinced about the supposed gulf between PL first teams and the best of the U23 players.  I think in some cases its a bit of a "glass ceiling" myth perpetuated by senior pros trying to protect their own careers OR managers trying to protect their jobs and unprepared to take risks. .

Takes time for anyone to adapt to a new role in life or to adjust to performing at a higher level but in todays PL where instant results are required, young players are rarely afforded the time and opportunity to adjust and appear to be judged too quickly by fans and media.....thereby putting more pressure on managers by supporters and shareholders seeking instant results .

 

But there are plenty of examples now where necessity and/or time have proved the step up is not as great as people would have us believe......Marcus Rashford being the greatest example of all!

Would never have been given the opportunity barring an unparalleled injury crisis at United when Mourinho was forced to use his 8th choice unknown 19 year old  striker with NO previous experience of any senior football....and the rest is history! 

Amazing to think what might have happened to Marcus Rashford if Morurinho had not been faced that injury crisis and Rashford had carried on playing in Uniteds U23s...?  And how many more "Marcus Rashfords" were lost in the U23 system simply because they were never given that opportunity...?!? 

 

Latest examples of U23s "seamlessly" stepping straight into PL starting teams without any previous loan experience are Foden, Greenwood, Mctominay, Trent-Arnold, Declan Rice, Reece James, Curtis Jones, Lamptey and....our very own Luke Thomas!  FIVE of these players are now regulars in their Senior National team squads yet they stepped straight from U23 to PL football at the very highest level!   

(This takes no account of those who have had championship loan spells first before graduating to their first team....ie  Barnes, Chilwell, Mount etc...) 

 

Maybe it isn't so much a gulf between first team and U23s....just a question of picking the right players and giving them time to adapt.....and a little more patience from media, supporters and managers!

 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

Fascinating to see if Tavares plays tonight. He has featured in the Papa John's games, the last one of which he got an assist and then the winner and then after being named in the EL squad list hasn't played for the U23's which is odd but we have been told by people in the know why. The Papa John's is perhaps a bit more of a level up and hopefully both Tavares and the club want him to play.

 

Here's how I envisage it going.....

 

Tavares plays tonight, we qualify for the next round. He scores some outrageous goal and is named on the bench vs Southampton and comes on to help close out an emphatic win. Signs a new deal in a few weeks and the club ask me what role if any I'd like. I'm appointed Purveyor of Flair and have an office next to Rudkin and Beaglehole at Seagrave with a kitchenette to do me Kiev and beans in.

[Foxy-Lady]

5 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Fascinating to see if Tavares plays tonight. He has featured in the Papa John's games, the last one of which he got an assist and then the winner and then after being named in the EL squad list hasn't played for the U23's which is odd but we have been told by people in the know why. The Papa John's is perhaps a bit more of a level up and hopefully both Tavares and the club want him to play.

 

Here's how I envisage it going.....

 

Tavares plays tonight, we qualify for the next round. He scores some outrageous goal and is named on the bench vs Southampton and comes on to help close out an emphatic win. Signs a new deal in a few weeks and the club ask me what role if any I'd like. I'm appointed Purveyor of Flair and have an office next to Rudkin and Beaglehole at Seagrave with a kitchenette to do me Kiev and beans in.

What relation (if any?) are you to Sidnei Tavares.........Mr Tavares? 

[1972 Fox]

13 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Fascinating to see if Tavares plays tonight. He has featured in the Papa John's games, the last one of which he got an assist and then the winner and then after being named in the EL squad list hasn't played for the U23's which is odd but we have been told by people in the know why. The Papa John's is perhaps a bit more of a level up and hopefully both Tavares and the club want him to play.

 

Here's how I envisage it going.....

 

Tavares plays tonight, we qualify for the next round. He scores some outrageous goal and is named on the bench vs Southampton and comes on to help close out an emphatic win. Signs a new deal in a few weeks and the club ask me what role if any I'd like. I'm appointed Purveyor of Flair and have an office next to Rudkin and Beaglehole at Seagrave with a kitchenette to do me Kiev and beans in.

I think you should prepare to be disappointed Ric. If he's having a stand off with the club and he's looking to move on then I don't expect him to be in the team tonight. Hope I'm wrong.

[happy85]

21 minutes ago, Blue Fox 72 said:

I think you should prepare to be disappointed Ric. If he's having a stand off with the club and he's looking to move on then I don't expect him to be in the team tonight. Hope I'm wrong.

The interview he done suggest there a chance he stay with us

[Ric Flair]

48 minutes ago, Blue Fox 72 said:

I think you should prepare to be disappointed Ric. If he's having a stand off with the club and he's looking to move on then I don't expect him to be in the team tonight. Hope I'm wrong.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ME FCUKIN KIEVS AND BEANS?