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waylander

Rodgers due respect

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1 hour ago, deanolegend1989 said:

I’ve said it countless times before but I’ll say it again. Brendan Rodgers is a decent manager but he’s not a great one unless he wins us a trophy and/or gets us top 4.

Our squad is not punching, we are as good as anyone bar Man City and far better than a majority.

We are certainly not ‘punching’ like everyone seems to think. If we finish 5-7th then BR has failed and we have failed, it’s as simple as that.

 

I like Brendan and I’ve not once wanted him gone, but it would be a failure and there’s no getting away from that.

 

I saw something on YouTube discussing Brendan and they actually say it pretty much how I see it. He’s a good manager but he’s not a top manager and ultimately bottles it.
Blame injuries, Blame ‘were still developing’, blame Stevie g slipping but there’s a pattern he needs to prove before he can be talked as a better than decent manager and that’s to see a job through until the final day.

 

 

Think you've perhaps hit the nail on the head for me there too. 

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3 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

I’ve said it countless times before but I’ll say it again. Brendan Rodgers is a decent manager but he’s not a great one unless he wins us a trophy and/or gets us top 4.

Our squad is not punching, we are as good as anyone bar Man City and far better than a majority.

We are certainly not ‘punching’ like everyone seems to think. If we finish 5-7th then BR has failed and we have failed, it’s as simple as that.

 

I like Brendan and I’ve not once wanted him gone, but it would be a failure and there’s no getting away from that.

 

I saw something on YouTube discussing Brendan and they actually say it pretty much how I see it. He’s a good manager but he’s not a top manager and ultimately bottles it.
Blame injuries, Blame ‘were still developing’, blame Stevie g slipping but there’s a pattern he needs to prove before he can be talked as a better than decent manager and that’s to see a job through until the final day.

 

 

Agree. 
I saw that and had to agree with what the Chelsea fan said. I do think our starting XI is very strong but our overall squad isn’t. The squad depth has improved but the quality hasn’t. You only have to look at the strength in depth the rest have.   I’m not calling for Rodgers to go but having watched that there is a worrying pattern with him and the side’s he’s managed. Last season we bottled it. This nonsense that it was down to injuries, covid, inexperience etc is rubbish. 14 points clear and not beating 1 of Watford, Bournemouth, Norwich or Brighton second half of the season. Which would of got us top 4. Had spurs did we did last season everyone on here would be laughing at them and rightly so. Because we do it the argument is lack of experience. Even though within the squad we had - Vardy, Kasper, Fuchs, Albrighton and Morgan all title winners. 
I do like Rodgers and think he’s done superb since being here and hope we get top 4 but I’m not that confident. 

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23 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Our fit first XI might be as good or better than most, but our whole squad isn't. Why does it give some people such obvious pleasure to pre-proclaim our manager as a failure before he's failed?

I take the point that you're making but if you look at an initial squad of 15 of:

Schmeichel, Ricardo, Fofana, Evans, Soyuncu, Castagne, Tielemans, Ndidi, Barnes, Maddison, Praet, Vardy, Justin, Albrighton, Iheanacho. 

 

I look at that as being comparable or better than most when every player in the league is actually fit outside of Manchester City and Liverpool. Are there many we'd swap with the opposition?

Even Ward, Mendy, Thomas, Perez and Under aren't exactly poor for adding to that. Rodgers has inherited a very good 'squad' of players and I don't think we should underate what he has available to him compared to the majority of the opposition. Clearly he could do with perhaps 3 quality extras but most other teams need even more. 

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1 minute ago, volpeazzurro said:

I take the point that you're making but if you look at an initial squad of 15 of:

Schmeichel, Ricardo, Fofana, Evans, Soyuncu, Castagne, Tielemans, Ndidi, Barnes, Maddison, Praet, Vardy, Justin, Albrighton, Iheanacho. 

 

I look at that as being comparable or better than most when every player in the league is actually fit outside of Manchester City and Liverpool. Are there many we'd swap with the opposition?

Even Ward, Mendy, Thomas, Perez and Under aren't exactly poor for adding to that. Rodgers has inherited a very good 'squad' of players and I don't think we should underate what he has available to him compared to the majority of the opposition. Clearly he could do with perhaps 3 quality extras but most other teams need even more. 

OK, perhaps we need to define squad as 'first team squad' so we're all talking about the same thing. Of whom currently (from the 15 names you mentioned) Ricardo is not yet himself, Fofana is raw, Evans is not peak Evans, Barnes, Justin and Praet are currently unavailable, Vardy is definitely not peak Vardy, and so on. We don't mention Mendy in such a positive way, have you learnt nothing?!?!? :whistle:

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3 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

Ranieri and Rodgers are not even in the top 3.

 

Pearson, O Neil and Gillies are far superior to those 2.

 

Ranieri is the GOAT. Rodgers will surpass O'Neill if he wins the FA Cup and gets us top 4/6 again. 

 

I appreciate all things has to be considered - budget, quality of players inherited, league position when arrived etc. Its hard to judge manages against each other but surely Ranieri is the greatest.

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3 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

I’ve said it countless times before but I’ll say it again. Brendan Rodgers is a decent manager but he’s not a great one unless he wins us a trophy and/or gets us top 4.

Our squad is not punching, we are as good as anyone bar Man City and far better than a majority.

We are certainly not ‘punching’ like everyone seems to think. If we finish 5-7th then BR has failed and we have failed, it’s as simple as that.

 

I like Brendan and I’ve not once wanted him gone, but it would be a failure and there’s no getting away from that.

 

I saw something on YouTube discussing Brendan and they actually say it pretty much how I see it. He’s a good manager but he’s not a top manager and ultimately bottles it.
Blame injuries, Blame ‘were still developing’, blame Stevie g slipping but there’s a pattern he needs to prove before he can be talked as a better than decent manager and that’s to see a job through until the final day.

 

 

 

Rodgers has never won a European knockout tie ever. You can't be considered a top manager with that kind of terrible record. 

 

He isn't going anywhere any time soon. His ceiling is with us. He won't manage United or Chelsea in the near future. Good for us because he is a good manager for us (not an elite manager) .

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25 minutes ago, Koke said:

 

Ranieri is the GOAT. Rodgers will surpass O'Neill if he wins the FA Cup and gets us top 4/6 again. 

 

I appreciate all things has to be considered - budget, quality of players inherited, league position when arrived etc. Its hard to judge manages against each other but surely Ranieri is the greatest.

I do love Ranieri. However what O’Neil achieved was imo incredible. The longevity of a side which had no right to do so well was down to him. 4 top 10 finishes in the pl and 2 league cup wins. Also a lot less financial resources available to him. Absolutely outstanding. 

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15 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

I do love Ranieri. However what O’Neil achieved was imo incredible. The longevity of a side which had no right to do so well was down to him. 4 top 10 finishes in the pl and 2 league cup wins. Also a lot less financial resources available to him. Absolutely outstanding. 

O'Neill was consistent which is what it's about. Consistency of top 10 coupled with domestic trophies.

 

I don't think a manager is comparable until they've won trophies. Rodgers delivering top 6 consistently is fantastic but he needs to win at least one trophy also to be compared to O'Neill.

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I don't think BR has failed once whilst being here. 

 

I 100% believe that going into last year, top 6 was our aim, not top 4. Just like many on here, I think we set our sights on top 6 but it changed when we built a healthy cushion in 2nd. Yes, there is an element of bottling it in the second half of the season but ultimately, we hit our initial goal. 

 

This year, yes. I believe top 4 was our aim this year and so far we are on course for that. 

 

As for us having one of the best teams in the league  thats nonsense. We have one of the best starting 11 in the league but when it comes to the squad, there are still 4/5 teams ahead of us. 

 

Would i be disappointed with 5/6 place this year? Yes but two top 6 finishes in a row is certainly not a failure. 

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8 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

I don't think BR has failed once whilst being here. 

Disagree. 
He’s got an awful lot right since being here. But he failed in the league cup semi against Villa last season. After beating them 4-1 and 4-0 in the league. Also against Chelsea in quarter final fa cup last season. Slavia Prague this season although injuries should be considered. 14 points clear in the top 4 and we bottled it last season. We have improved significantly under him but to say he hasn’t failed is wrong. Unfortunately in the must win games especially cup matches he fails. 

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11 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

Disagree. 
He’s got an awful lot right since being here. But he failed in the league cup semi against Villa last season. After beating them 4-1 and 4-0 in the league. Also against Chelsea in quarter final fa cup last season. Slavia Prague this season although injuries should be considered. 14 points clear in the top 4 and we bottled it last season. We have improved significantly under him but to say he hasn’t failed is wrong. Unfortunately in the must win games especially cup matches he fails. 

And yet he got us to those points too, which meant that he hasn't failed in the main. Failure is an endpoint - something that is decided after the fact, when all is done. It's dead easy to take individual examples, find the low moments and point the finger as if that's proof. He has a massive win percentage and is achieving a level of consistency way better than those that have gone before, yet people want to assert 'failure' - from which one might conclude that we appear to have a number of experts in failure.

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4 minutes ago, winteriscoming said:

Disagree. 
He’s got an awful lot right since being here. But he failed in the league cup semi against Villa last season. After beating them 4-1 and 4-0 in the league. Also against Chelsea in quarter final fa cup last season. Slavia Prague this season although injuries should be considered. 14 points clear in the top 4 and we bottled it last season. We have improved significantly under him but to say he hasn’t failed is wrong. Unfortunately in the must win games especially cup matches he fails. 

The matches you've highlighted are matches that we SHOULD have won, your right but at the same time, I still don't think that losing a domestic cup quarter or semi final is a failure with regards to where we are in our transition to being one of the leagues top teams. Neither is a European knockout game post christmas. 

 

Its clear where we want to be and I think we are heading in that direction but there is a word I used there which I think is key and that is "Transition". 

 

Its not realistic to expect us to go from 9th in the league and 5th/6th round in cups to cup finals and consistent top 4 finishes on a regular basis and I don't for one minute believe that was the immediate target set by the board either. 

 

Like I said, I believe that's the long term goal but I don't for one minute believe that, that was what BR was told to deliver from day 1 (purely speculation as none of us know whats said in Tops office). He was likely told to improve season on season and eventually get us to that level which I think he has done/ on his way to doing. 

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2 minutes ago, Albert said:

If you take into account our revenue, wage bill & money spent on transfers compared to other clubs, Do you honestly think we’ve failed if we don’t finish in the top 4? 

You might get a very long answer to this Albert.

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11 minutes ago, Albert said:

If you take into account our revenue, wage bill & money spent on transfers compared to other clubs, Do you honestly think we’ve failed if we don’t finish in the top 4? 

It could be considered a failure of mentality ......I doubt that the 15/16 squad would have allowed themselves to drop out of the top four last  season and also this.  And yet which characters are missing ?  NG and riyad weren’t the most vocal !  Most of the others are still here. Huth and drinks the big misses I guess. 

 

However, the fact that we are again consistently in the top four is astounding for a club with our profile. any european qualification can in no way be considered failure.  But it would be a crushing disappointment, following on from last July ...... 

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Judge each manager on the squad they have, not previous league finishes. O'Neil and Rodgers are under vastly different expectations and rightly so. 

 

Edited by Koke
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7 minutes ago, Koke said:

Judge each manager on the squad they have, not previous league finishes. O'Neil and Rodgers are under vastly different expectations and rightly so. 

 

Presumably it's also only fair to judge them on the conditions they are working under too (pandemic, chronic injury list etc) too. I'd also say that the game has changed hugely in financial terms in the 20+ years since O'Neill.

 

To add - I thought M O'N was absolutely extraordinary in his own right - I'm just not keen on invidious comparisons. Both brilliant in their own ways.

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6 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

I’ve said it countless times before but I’ll say it again. Brendan Rodgers is a decent manager but he’s not a great one unless he wins us a trophy and/or gets us top 4.

Our squad is not punching, we are as good as anyone bar Man City and far better than a majority.

We are certainly not ‘punching’ like everyone seems to think. If we finish 5-7th then BR has failed and we have failed, it’s as simple as that.

 

I like Brendan and I’ve not once wanted him gone, but it would be a failure and there’s no getting away from that.

 

I saw something on YouTube discussing Brendan and they actually say it pretty much how I see it. He’s a good manager but he’s not a top manager and ultimately bottles it.
Blame injuries, Blame ‘were still developing’, blame Stevie g slipping but there’s a pattern he needs to prove before he can be talked as a better than decent manager and that’s to see a job through until the final day.

 

 

Yes I agree with this...But take this season out of any Major alround criticism .The injuries have been Mitigating ,we are not a Top 4 squad, we Simply dont have those higher Quality fringe/reserve/Cover players...

If we were Happy to just Keep & compete in the top 10, then we have a Handy and decent squad, even Maybe for top 6..!!

Chronic, consistent Injuries cant be just pushed aside,with statements trying to show " whatever"  we still should do this or that 

they are easy,lazy, remarks.

This Club does Not have the Financial clout, has the Top 4-6 clubs , nor player rescources....

 

We have built up a Team of 11-13 ( Not more) in the last Two seasons that can 'compete' not expect  a top 4 position...

Despite those injuries including last seasons, Rodgers & squad have us wavering around Top 4...

Make no Bones about it competing for Top 6 ( initial target) and pushing Inside that Top 5th-7th positions, is still a total different level & Standard to Finding , competing  then holding...Top 4....

Unlike some I didnt find last Year can be put down as a failure...It was the squad & managers First Real crack, and we

found ourselves in a more suprising position as First speculated...Having those 2-4 irregular injuries was too much, for our EOS run in...

 

Now again with an improved First 11-13 players, we again find ourselves, Not just with 1-3 Elite player injuries but including Top fringe players ,10 Top players, 

Having long Term Chronic then niggling injuries, where returnees took even further outages.

A Teams rythm, character, and tact, becomes then damn hard to find any continuity, plus those normal small but important Tweeks & Experiments that a manager

does, becomes near on impossible..he is forced to do unnecessary,unwanted experiments, because of the situation.

Also any slow ,canny introduction of New tactics/ introduction of young/New wannabes are Not then Natural planned steps...

Gen other Major Point that somehow gets forgotten und pushed in the gutter, is after a long period out und stuttering returns, it takes a player,Maybe 3-4 games

Sometimes half a season before they are playing again at that desired high octane level .

ie:-   Ndidi,Soyuncu, Vardy,Ricardo,Maddison,Amartey...We also had Barnes, nursing an injury since New year...

        Add then Castagna, Fofana and still injured Praet...Our Elite players who can deliver Top 4,

        just havent had any decent Time together...

         But..!!  Rodgers selection & tactics has still got us competing for Top "3" ...

           Then throw in Covid, then mental-Stress questions on covid-bubbles

            then Handling all that with an unnecessary Compact season...then One can expect performances will be wonky..!!

 

IMO 1-5 Slip ups, doesn't give any ground to go heavy on any critic towards B.Rodgers himself, his tactics/selection/formation choices...

Because from the offset, individual fans ideas in players selection & formation, is just that !  an individual opinion, and not something you can Hang on

anything negative towards Rodgers has a failing delivery of character or performance.

For me hes done an excellent job, and still carries a few wild-cards & Carte-blanche descisions in his pockets,

before I even agree even  to the right of some Posters opinions & throwing too an heavy  critic at him..

And there das been some nonsense or total Lack of understanding, that has been stiften in this forum..!

 

But where you are right, though he was done & proved he can make awkward, & Top descisions,

 he will have to deliver "top table positions" and trophies before he can be considered a great or top manager...

>>>for us our club hes been sofar more than decent & leading towards being a Top manager < <<

Though Hes still yet to make and write that " Great history"

 

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

And yet he got us to those points too, which meant that he hasn't failed in the main. Failure is an endpoint - something that is decided after the fact, when all is done. It's dead easy to take individual examples, find the low moments and point the finger as if that's proof. He has a massive win percentage and is achieving a level of consistency way better than those that have gone before, yet people want to assert 'failure' - from which one might conclude that we appear to have a number of experts in failure.

I agree overall he’s been brilliant. The OP was he hasn’t failed since being here. All I was pointing out was that imo those games were examples of failure. It could be I’m still frustrated at the best opportunity we’ve had for a long time to get to a cup final against a side which at the time were very poor. Who knows we may of still lost the final against Man City but it would of been something to get there. 

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28 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

Presumably it's also only fair to judge them on the conditions they are working under too (pandemic, chronic injury list etc) too. I'd also say that the game has changed hugely in financial terms in the 20+ years since O'Neill.

 

To add - I thought M O'N was absolutely extraordinary in his own right - I'm just not keen on invidious comparisons. Both brilliant in their own ways.

 

I partly agree. Our wage bill isn't top 6, neither is our net spend. So in that respect he is doing great. But then again our squad is top 6 quality. There are many nuances ways to analyse Rodgers. My opinion is he is a good manager who is doing well overall for  us but I don't see him being good enough for bigger clubs like Chelsea and United, which is good for us.

 

 

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3 hours ago, HighPeakFox said:

Our fit first XI might be as good or better than most, but our whole squad isn't. Why does it give some people such obvious pleasure to pre-proclaim our manager as a failure before he's failed?

Rodgers is useless.  We are only 3rd.  

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1 hour ago, winteriscoming said:

Disagree. 
He’s got an awful lot right since being here. But he failed in the league cup semi against Villa last season. After beating them 4-1 and 4-0 in the league. Also against Chelsea in quarter final fa cup last season. Slavia Prague this season although injuries should be considered. 14 points clear in the top 4 and we bottled it last season. We have improved significantly under him but to say he hasn’t failed is wrong. Unfortunately in the must win games especially cup matches he fails. 

Well I like this manager that fails so often. If failure is competing with the top 6 then I will take that everyday. Especially on the budget Leicester have compared to most in the division. 

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