Mentality.

[OntarioFox]

Not this sort  this sort 

 

It's early days yet, granted. And we've not played anyone good. 

But does anybody else get a great deal of satisfaction from the bottle we've shown so far this season to come from behind in two of our three games? First against Burnley, and now against Man City?

What cost us Champions League last season was a weak mentality. A failure to respond to adversity and negative momentum. Say what you want about other factors, but I don't see how anything other than a collapse in mentality can result in a nearly full-strength squad surrendering a 14-point lead, missing Ricardo or not. It's unprecedented. A pure bottle job the likes of which we'd be p*ss-taking about for years to come had it happened to Spurs. 

I think a large part of our success before Christmas was that we hit the front in games early-doors and didn't look back. I can count on one hand the times we were behind in games, and remember well the infographics through Autumn declaring our defence the tightest in the league, all while Maguire was shipping goals for fun at Man Utd. Last laugh and all that, in hindsight.  

It was a shock to our system to have to come from behind, and once that slide started after New Years I like many here realised that, once we were a goal down, the chances of even snatching a draw from games were slim to zero. Our squad had a bad habit of panicking or letting their heads drop, and eventually that bag-of-nerves approach contributed to our game when ahead - most notably during the embarrassment against Bournemouth, and (though the game was probably already lost) in Kasper's gift to Man Utd on the final day. We expect it as fans at this point. The meltdown in the match thread on FT yesterday was understandable in a way - despite the turnaround against Burnley, after half a year of capitulation none of us really expected us to get back into games anymore... right?

 

This year, we are (so far) sticking to our plan and not letting opposition goals affect our play. We rode a storm throughout much of the first half yesterday, but players did their jobs in a situation where, in my eyes, we would have folded last year.

 

I said during the off-season that the key for Rodgers is to use the disappointment of last year as a rocket up the a*se of many of our players, especially (but not exclusively) the younger group, to build a little character and ensure that A) we stick to our game in challenging situations and B) we snuff out silly mistakes. So far, despite our patchwork squad, that looks to be exactly what is happening. We're winning games in different ways, and coming from behind to do so.

It's very early days yet. We could put in a garbage performance against West Ham and be back to slating Rodgers' tactics, or Barnes' finishing, or Kasper's distribution. But for me, the fact we're top of the embryonic table with a hefty goal difference, despite being behind in 2 of our 3 games, already represents a massive mentality shift from last year.

Here's hoping it continues. 

 

[Dan LCFC]

I think the real test of our mentality will come when the pressure is on us. This isn't a criticism but it's more that we've not yet discovered if they can deliver when there's any pressure on them to - so far there hasn't been really.

[foxfanazer]

The comebacks are nice but I do wish we'd start games better. Feel like that's been a problem for years now and it's really frustrating 

[norwichfox]

Can't get my head round these positive posts....ffs, this is Foxestalk.

 

[ajthefox]

You'd hope that in the same way the play-off loss to Watford galvanised the squad, that last seasons disastrous run in would go some way to doing the same thing, even if it was our own fault.

I think yesterday was certainly a positive sign, but I think as Dan said what really counts is how we do under pressure.

 

In some ways, going 1-0 so early is much better than going 1 down at half an hour into the game, because you at least know that you have so much of the game left to rectify conceding.

[BKLFox]

1 hour ago, norwichfox said:

Can't get my head round these positive posts....ffs, this is Foxestalk.

 

Don’t fret just come back here @ 12:10 next Sunday when normal service will be restored 

[Jazzy_Jeff]

We do have a young squad. Perhaps our dip in form last season was due to a bit of complacency and the experience has given everyone a kick up the backside.

 

weve shown maturity and good game management in our three league matches so far, long may it continue! 

[HybridFox]

*

Edited 28 September 2020 by TK95

[foxile5]

It does look good but it's early days. The strength of mind comes into play when we need to win. 

[shailen]

4 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

I think the real test of our mentality will come when the pressure is on us. This isn't a criticism but it's more that we've not yet discovered if they can deliver when there's any pressure on them to - so far there hasn't been really.

I agree. Let's wait till when we lose a game to see how we can bounce back or face a team in a high pressured game where the stakes are high. We failed last season in the league Cup semi final and towards the end of the season when we needed to beat united to get fourth. 

 

It feels different and we feel more resilient so far this season, but we don't want a repeat of last season where we got ourselves into an incredible position and then blew it. Therefore I'm reserving judgement on the mentality of these players until we have a response to a disappointment. 

[murphy]

I think that we have shown great resilience to turn around the form of the last six months thus far.  I really thought it would continue.  It does however irritate me even more that we suffered an 18pt turnaround at the hands of Maguire's United and with so much at stake, when we are now showing what we are capable of.

[HighPeakFox]

19 minutes ago, murphy said:

I think that we have shown great resilience to turn around the form of the last six months thus far.  I really thought it would continue.  It does however irritate me even more that we suffered an 18pt turnaround at the hands of Maguire's United and with so much at stake, when we are now showing what we are capable of.

Maybe one needed to happen for the other to emerge.

[Les-TA-Jon]

It's a good start - but I want to see how we react during a game when our back 4 is pressed.

 

And how we react generally after some bad results. Last season we had some bad results that rocked our confidence and never really recovered over half a season's worth of games. 

[Raw Dykes]

12 hours ago, murphy said:

I think that we have shown great resilience to turn around the form of the last six months thus far.  I really thought it would continue.  It does however irritate me even more that we suffered an 18pt turnaround at the hands of Maguire's United and with so much at stake, when we are now showing what we are capable of.

I agree - it was a real kick in the nuts, but, as @HighPeakFox says, perhaps it was the catalyst for our current form - much like Deeney Day spurred us on to piss the Championship.

 

The way I've decided to look at it is; Man Utd will have been lulled into a false sense of security somewhat by us letting what happened happen. I think it is actually the case that they only really spend big when they don't make top 4. Their defence is dirt, and there are no signs of that being fixed. Their manager is stealing a living (and is also apparently a rapist-shielding scumbag, but that is besides the point). They've only got so much luck, and they must have used most of it getting that win over Brighton.

[CosbehFox]

22 hours ago, shailen said:

I agree. Let's wait till when we lose a game to see how we can bounce back or face a team in a high pressured game where the stakes are high. We failed last season in the league Cup semi final and towards the end of the season when we needed to beat united to get fourth. 

 

It feels different and we feel more resilient so far this season, but we don't want a repeat of last season where we got ourselves into an incredible position and then blew it. Therefore I'm reserving judgement on the mentality of these players until we have a response to a disappointment. 

Ironically though I think this season has an air of free hit, so pressure won’t be as intense. The wars race of transfers has continued despite a global pandemic. We all understandably expect a dip when the Europa League kicks in (I actually think that’s dependent on the draw and the telling point will be December onwards as opposed to the EL aftermath). 
 

The improvement in performance at West Brom in the second half was huge as a confidence builder. Combination factors such as debutant, low confidence, injuries throws were put aside. I think the PL is so average that confidence and momentum is such a huge factor. 

[CosbehFox]

56 minutes ago, Raw Dykes said:

The way I've decided to look at it is; Man Utd will have been lulled into a false sense of security somewhat by us letting what happened happen. I think it is actually the case that they only really spend big when they don't make top 4. Their defence is dirt, and there are no signs of that being fixed. Their manager is stealing a living (and is also apparently a rapist-shielding scumbag, but that is besides the point). They've only got so much luck, and they must have used most of it getting that win over Brighton.

Three points here. 
 

1) Man U were afforded the chance to play reserves and rest players with the Europa League last season. This won’t be the case this year. They will have to play the same players across the two competitions. Hence they will struggle as generally speaking their back up brigade is crap. 
 

2) They don’t have a coherent plan in their recruitment which we all know. They play a very set 4-3-3 system currently. This leaves the centre defenders exposed. The right back they have whose very good at using his pace to cover has no decent replacement. They finally realised at left back they have an issue. In midfield, they now have three ‘attacking’ midfielders which means one either doesn’t play (Van Der Beek) or plays a role he’s not suited to (Pogba). The first choice defensive midfielder is a crab.
 

The whole system is designed to get their front three playing. Martial has apparently repeatedly used his agent to do transfer games when he won’t played centrally. Greenwood and Rashford on wings when you could argue they are better centrally. So they have chased Sancho all Summer for what purpose? Just another marketing, shirt sales signing as per Pogba rather than addressing the actual immediate issues. 
 

3) There’s a peculiar pattern in the PL currently where the ‘middle class’ have better managers as the ‘big 6’ seem besotted with the idea of hiring blokes who have a former connection to clubs. Despite them being....well just very average managers. Arteta and Klopp appear to be the only managers out of the six capable of moulding their tactics to the available players rather than as described in point 2 and also seen at Chelsea trying to shoehorn players into a formation and system they abide by. The signings this summer by Arteta and Klopp either complement what they are attempting or they suggest a tactical evolvement. 
 

Anyway I’m waffling. 

[shailen]

10 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Ironically though I think this season has an air of free hit, so pressure won’t be as intense. The wars race of transfers has continued despite a global pandemic. We all understandably expect a dip when the Europa League kicks in (I actually think that’s dependent on the draw and the telling point will be December onwards as opposed to the EL aftermath). 
 

The improvement in performance at West Brom in the second half was huge as a confidence builder. Combination factors such as debutant, low confidence, injuries throws were put aside. I think the PL is so average that confidence and momentum is such a huge factor. 

It's never a free hit. If we maintain this form till around Christmas, there is no doubt we'll have the same fans singing "we're gonna win the league" and "if we blow CL from here it will be a disgrace" etc.. 

 

I agree though with the confidence and momentum comment. There is very little between a lot of teams in the PL and confidence and momentum is a huge factor. It's was a huge reason as to why we won the league imo back in 15/16. We never lost that momentum from the great escape season. 

[Raw Dykes]

5 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Three points here. 
 

1) Man U were afforded the chance to play reserves and rest players with the Europa League last season. This won’t be the case this year. They will have to play the same players across the two competitions. Hence they will struggle as generally speaking their back up brigade is crap. 
 

2) They don’t have a coherent plan in their recruitment which we all know. They play a very set 4-3-3 system currently. This leaves the centre defenders exposed. The right back they have whose very good at using his pace to cover has no decent replacement. They finally realised at left back they have an issue. In midfield, they now have three ‘attacking’ midfielders which means one either doesn’t play (Van Der Beek) or plays a role he’s not suited to (Pogba). The first choice defensive midfielder is a crab.
 

The whole system is designed to get their front three playing. Martial has apparently repeatedly used his agent to do transfer games when he won’t played centrally. Greenwood and Rashford on wings when you could argue they are better centrally. So they have chased Sancho all Summer for what purpose? Just another marketing, shirt sales signing as per Pogba rather than addressing the actual immediate issues. 
 

3) There’s a peculiar pattern in the PL currently where the ‘middle class’ have better managers as the ‘big 6’ seem besotted with the idea of hiring blokes who have a former connection to clubs. Despite them being....well just very average managers. Arteta and Klopp appear to be the only managers out of the six capable of moulding their tactics to the available players rather than as described in point 2 and also seen at Chelsea trying to shoehorn players into a formation and system they abide by. The signings this summer by Arteta and Klopp either complement what they are attempting or they suggest a tactical evolvement. 
 

Anyway I’m waffling. 

I've run out of rep points after catching up with the Fofana thread, but I agree with all of this.

[OntarioFox]

The comments on momentum are spot on too, for what it's worth. I think what's surprised a lot of us about our start this season has been that it represents such a drastic turnaround from where we were just a few weeks ago.

 

Sometimes it just takes a tiny spark to set in motion the freight train of positive results. A lucky break, or a moment in a game that lifts the team spirits. Kingy's late winner against West Ham springs to mind in particular. What was most notable was that we carried that momentum across seasons, which is why a lot of us expected us to continue to bleed goals and results after such a protracted car crash through 2020 - especially after such a short break.

 

It's a far cry from the doldrum years up until the relegation to League One, when I seem to recall we found it next to impossible to bag back-to-back wins. But three wins in a row (gonna brush over the League Cup for the sake of my own narrative here  ) is such an alien situation to be in that it's hard not to feel just a tinge of excitement about our prospects again.

[Matt]

The scars are still there I feel.

 

Many times last season it frustrated me so much how mentally weak we were and how we seem scared, mentally and physically in certain games - almost every game after the restart and as the season came to a close.

 

I thought we'd perhaps addressed these issues given what we've seen so far this season, comebacks and how we played against Man City and Arsenal.

 

Perhaps i'm being harsh, tonight may have been a one off but we looked more scared than ever tonight, it seems like some kind of mental block against Liverpool.

 

It remains to be seen as we go on through the season but it tonight certainly makes me ask some questions again, hopefully we learn again and become stronger - until we face the Scousers again.

 

Edited 22 November 2020 by Matt

[CosbehFox]

We had an absolute honking result against West Ham this season - a result which we allowed for the first occasion since coming up to the PL in 14/15. 
 

We recovered. 
 

We recovered in part to the Liverpool result last time. The real killer was the two losses to Southampton and Burnley. 

[twister]

shocking today there are title winners in the group

 

If no bollockings occur after this then we will see the same downward trend we saw after the thrashing last year mark my words

 

its ok to lose but not like that.

[Ric Flair]

Got 2-3 very winnable games coming up, let's see what the mentality looks like. I felt we were getting a bit more savvy and stronger this season so I'm confident we will go to Braga and take bodies and likewise vs Fulham.

[cruzFOX]

Let’s see what Brendan has to say about that debacle.