Ukraine

[Countryfox]

Is there not a possibility that if a peace deal does eventually go through we supply what’s left of Ukraine with massive defensive systems just short of nuclear ..  and out puppet the master puppeteer by ‘ensuring’ a pro west leader remains permanently in place.  Sort of a back door NATO ..  

[Lionator]

5 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

I think the minute an aircraft from Poland gets up in the sky and shoots down a Rusky jet will be a pivotal moment. Although Putin has decreed many actions as ‘acts of war’ this one is right in his face, and if he does nothing could be seen as an act of weakness.  The question is what does he do ..  no way he’ll target the primary supplier ie the US (bullies never pick on someone stronger) but he might consider a missile attack on an airbase in Poland (nuclear???). If that’s the case what would NATO do ? ..  they are there to defend all members but would any form of retaliation be deemed defensive ?? ..  I think it would be a very prudent move to categorically and openly state that any attack on a NATO country would be a declaration of war. 

This is not going to happen. My inkling is that Blinken put that out yesterday to see how the Russians would respond. It’s also important to remember that the deal would be the give Ukraine some of Poland’s jets. Flying the jet’s from Poland would be an act of war, and I can’t imagine the Polish government as suicidal as much as they hate Russians. 

[Countryfox]

Just now, Lionator said:

This is not going to happen. My inkling is that Blinken put that out yesterday to see how the Russians would respond. It’s also important to remember that the deal would be the give Ukraine some of Poland’s jets. Flying the jet’s from Poland would be an act of war, and I can’t imagine the Polish government as suicidal as much as they hate Russians. 

I heard that the US will replace every jet passed to Ukraine with a more modern US jet as the Ukrainian pilots are only familiar with Polish jets ..  and it was on tv that the American spokesperson said this was defo going to happen. 

[kenny]

2 minutes ago, Lionator said:

This is not going to happen. My inkling is that Blinken put that out yesterday to see how the Russians would respond. It’s also important to remember that the deal would be the give Ukraine some of Poland’s jets. Flying the jet’s from Poland would be an act of war, and I can’t imagine the Polish government as suicidal as much as they hate Russians. 

I would put them on trucks and drive them to the nearest airbase. There is no way planes flying from Poland can go into Ukraine airspace.

[MPH]

35 minutes ago, Lionator said:

But if NATO won’t accept Ukraine then what’s the point of them putting that on the table with Russia? They need some sort of security arrangement. 

 

from what I can remember NATO has welcomed the notion of Ukraine joining. 
 

 

 

Why would they not?

[Stivo]

16 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

from what I can remember NATO has welcomed the notion of Ukraine joining. 
 

 

 

Why would they not?

You may be right 

 

the nato constitution requires that all territorial disputes are settled

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm

 

Which I have assumed precludes them joining given crimea but perhaps I am wrong.

[nnfox]

17 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

from what I can remember NATO has welcomed the notion of Ukraine joining. 
 

 

 

Why would they not?

The sticky issue, I think, is that NATO won't accept a nation into NATO that already has conflict.  That's to say, you can't bring conflict into NATO.  It would have happened before now, but the problems in the Donbass region were an issue.

 

That's not to say that Ukraine can't ever be part of NATO, it just might take time.  The Russians don't want them ever to join, regardless of status.

[LiberalFox]

This won't be solved by clever diplomacy but by what happens on the ground. Currently there's no incentive for Putin to stop and Ukraine doesn't seem in a position where it has to surrender. 

[Fazzer 7]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/03/07/russia-ukraine-latest-news-war-putin-refugees-nato-invasion/

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, Countryfox said:

I think the minute an aircraft from Poland gets up in the sky and shoots down a Rusky jet will be a pivotal moment. Although Putin has decreed many actions as ‘acts of war’ this one is right in his face, and if he does nothing could be seen as an act of weakness.  The question is what does he do ..  no way he’ll target the primary supplier ie the US (bullies never pick on someone stronger) but he might consider a missile attack on an airbase in Poland (nuclear???). If that’s the case what would NATO do ? ..  they are there to defend all members but would any form of retaliation be deemed defensive ?? ..  I think it would be a very prudent move to categorically and openly state that any attack on a NATO country would be a declaration of war. 

It's perhaps worth remembering at this time, that it was a Russian Buk missile system that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 killing all 298 passengers and crew (including 198 Dutch nationals), which was then hastily transported back across the border. 

 

My concern is, as Putin becomes more frustrated and angered by his faltering invasion - assuming the FSB whistleblower's letter is to be believed - the SVR is currently attempting to "dig up dirt" to suggest that Ukraine had built nuclear weapons which would worryingly be the pretext for a pre-emptive strike.

 

A tactical deployment of a nuclear weapon into Europe though? Unlikely, since his lover Alina Kabaeva, and four children are currently sequestered in a remote Swiss chalet.

 

Ironically, Switzerland has the oldest policy of military neutrality in the world and has not participated in a foreign war since its neutrality was established by the Treaty of Paris in 1815. In a spectacular break from the past, they too have allied themselves with EU sanctions and global condemnation of this war. 

Edited 7 March 2022 by Line-X
Spelling

[Daggers]

6 hours ago, SecretPro said:

Imagine choosing to belive the state over your own Children.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487

My parents spent decades ignoring the lived experience of their children in education and the NHS, choosing to continually vote for the worst party and believe media lies. Some people get so committed to their world view nothing is allowed to challenge or undermine it.

[weller54]

30 minutes ago, Line-X said:

It's perhaps worth remembering at this time, that it was a Russian Buk missile system that shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in 2014 killing all 298 passengers and crew (including 198 Dutch nationals), which was then hastily transported back across the border. 

 

My concern is, as Putin becomes more frustrated and angered by his faltering invasion - assuming the FSB whistleblower's letter is to be believed - the SVR is currently attempting to "dig up dirt" to suggest that Ukraine had built nuclear weapons which would worryingly be the pretext for a pre-emptive strike.

 

A tactical deployment of a nuclear weapon into Europe though? Unlikely, since his lover Alina Kabaeva, and four children are currently sequestered in a remote Swiss chalet.

 

Ironically, Switzerland has the oldest policy of military neutrality in the world and has not participated in a foreign war since its neutrality was established by the Treaty of Paris in 1815. In a spectacular break from the past, they too have allied themselves with EU sanctions and global condemnation of this war. 

Putin won't like a giant Toblerone up him!!

[SecretPro]

24 minutes ago, Daggers said:

My parents spent decades ignoring the lived experience of their children in education and the NHS, choosing to continually vote for the worst party and believe media lies. Some people get so committed to their world view nothing is allowed to challenge or undermine it.

This is true, my parents are both horrifically right wing (they never used to be, but in recent years started reading the daily mail). Both were previously Labour voters. It's at the point where I can really have a proper conversation with them now without being irritated, especially if I go around there and they've got the news on.

 

BUT

 

That is slightly different to being told by your kid that you;ve had to run away to hungary or that your house is currently being shelled.

[MPH]

I don’t think they will technically be polish Jets. The poles will ‘ sell ‘ the Jets to Ukraine and ‘buy’ newer jets from the U.S.

[Smudge]

47 minutes ago, Daggers said:

My parents spent decades ignoring the lived experience of their children in education and the NHS, choosing to continually vote for the worst party and believe media lies. Some people get so committed to their world view nothing is allowed to challenge or undermine it.

Bollocks you are well educated and healthy! 

[Sampson]

Ukranian refugees let into UK - 50 (because "it takes time to process")
Ukranian refugees let into Ireland - 1800 

Edited 7 March 2022 by Sampson

[David Hankey]

'Safe Corridors', 4 to Russia and 2 into Belarus. What insanity, would you be prepared to go into the bears den?

[marbles]

On 06/03/2022 at 10:48, MPH said:

 

People unfortunately didn’t care they had a sexual predator  ( allegedly )  in office just as long as they had $20 extra in their pocket each week.

Sexual predator?  We didnt care when we had Bill Clinton in office, why would Trump supposedly being a predator suddenly bother us?

 

Edited 7 March 2022 by marbles

[Salisbury Fox]

Here is a link to a site that attempts to verify equipment losses on both sides with photos provided for each if you click on each link. It seems to be kept as up to date as I suppose it can be given the pace this is going at. Astonishing amount of armoured vehicles been taken out or abandoned.

 

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

[LiberalFox]

20 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Ukranian refugees let into UK - 50 (because "it takes time to process")
Ukranian refugees let into Ireland - 1800 

It's so frustrating as not only is it immoral but completely undermines the UKs world image. 

[nnfox]

1 hour ago, LiberalFox said:

This won't be solved by clever diplomacy but by what happens on the ground. Currently there's no incentive for Putin to stop and Ukraine doesn't seem in a position where it has to surrender. 

It's feeling more and more like we are in a crowd of observers watching a steroid monster coke head beat the daylights out of his ex girlfriend.  We're standing by saying how terrible it is and filming it on our phones, but it's not going to stop unless someone steps in.  The trouble is, the aggressor will swing for whoever that is and that could be lethal.  The only saving grace will be that all the other bystanders would then pile in and it will be over fairly quickly.

 

God knows what sort of state everyone would be in afterwards.

[MPH]

27 minutes ago, marbles said:

Sexual predator?  We didnt care when we had Bill Clinton in office, why would Trump supposedly being a predator suddenly bother us?

 

 

I’d put it to you that both should have been a problem.

[SpacedX]

In terms of calculation, President Putin has carefully timed this invasion. A world still reeling from a global healthcare crisis, the global supply chain compromised, inflation rising, a post-Brexit EU, the UK dependent upon new multilateral trade agreements and increased division plus the emergence of the far right. The inevitable sanctions against Russia have been measured and he knows that they also acutely hurt the western world. Just the mere suggestion of an embargo of Russian oil sent caused the price of a barrel to spike to $139 earlier today. As we hurtle towards a '70s era energy crisis, the cost of oil, utilities and food hits unprecedented highs, as inflation rises and real wages/spending diminishes, the threat of a major recession is imminent - and in the US, the Republicans are waiting in the wings to 'fix it'. A battle for freedom never comes without a cost. Putin knows all this - but are the voting public, for much of the online slacktivist posturing, ultimately willing to saddle the long-term consequences?

 

Where Mr Putin wildly miscalculated was the stoicism and resistance of the Ukrainian people and the scale of the unified response from Europe and the west - which I suspect has come as an enormous shock to the Kremlin. 

[SpacedX]

28 minutes ago, marbles said:

Sexual predator?  We didnt care when we had Bill Clinton in office, why would Trump supposedly being a predator suddenly bother us?

 

A bj courtesy of Monika Lewinsky? I think the more troubling issue was that like Trump, he was willing to lie in office, under oath and to the American people. 

[LiberalFox]

I'm getting sick of Liz Truss, she's blatantly trying to launch her leadership bid off the back of this and she doesn't know a thing about military matters, keeps spouting unhelpful nonsense.