The I cant believe it’s not politics thread.

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Hey man am i part of the 'many here'!! To disassociate myself from the science crowd, i believe we 'should and can save the world against the effects of climate change' because there's a barrel load of cash to be made from it, and we're smack broke at the minute, so probably need to find new markets/industries or we will become even more of a pointless island in the ocean.

 

I applaud @leicsemac and that mob on here but lets be honest the man on the clapham omnibus doesn't give a flying f4ck about what peer-reviewed papers say, if they even know what that term means, its not reality, and the rhetoric is just far too negative, its failed to convince people for decades and won't start now. We need to see climate change as the greatest market opportunity to bring back GREAT britain ever, with a side consequence of saving the planet. That'll get people going!

 

People have a tough time understanding that not everyone sees things EXACTLY the same way they do, just read some of the comments around Brexit yesterday, saying people who voted 'leave' should admit they are wrong lol, baffling. If you don't see climate as a threat and do not believe we can make a difference to it, flip the script. See it as an opportunity. Both viewpoints are correct and neither makes you 'thick'

I'm not fussed about the method - if your way through economic base purposes rather than moral obligation and "saving the world including yourself" is a better convincer, fair enough.

 

I am fussed about the results.

 

(Though I think it's a real judgement on humanity if your view of their apathy and lack of consideration is correct - and it may well be.)

[grobyfox1990]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm not fussed about the method - if your way through economic base purposes rather than moral obligation and "saving the world including yourself" is a better convincer, fair enough.

 

I am fussed about the results.

 

(Though I think it's a real judgement on humanity if your view of their apathy and lack of consideration is correct - and it may well be.)

Damn my attempt to tag didnt work, and my post sounds critical of you, its not!!! Varied interests/skills are needed to solve the problem

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Damn my attempt to tag didnt work, and my post sounds critical of you, its not!!! Varied interests/skills are needed to solve the problem

That is true, and don't worry, I didn't take it critically.

 

There needs to be a suite of solutions.

[Fazzer 7]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The UK has the obligation to try, in tandem with other nations wherever and whenever.

 

Allow me to phrase things differently, and ask another couple of questions, because while we've talked about this at length I could do with a little more clarity.

 

How do you foresee the next few decades turning out in terms of such things, if the leading nations follow the path you believe them to be taking? (I've made my thoughts on it abundantly clear, what are yours?)

 

and...

 

What kind of evidence would it take to convince you that the UK and other nations need to take on a leading role in this matter?

 

NB. I'm genuinely curious and seeking understanding on this. I think it's essential.

I foresee the future, next 20 years or so, being something in between what you predict will happen and where we are now. But I still maintain this country is doing it’s fair share at present, and will continue to do so. Big players like China and India need to do more. What I would like to see more of, are policies that mitigate climate change such as planting billions of trees, if it helps, carbon capture, stuff like that instead of economically damaging ill thought out ones like banning gas boilers and new IC engines after some arbitrary date in the future. 

[leicsmac]

39 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

I foresee the future, next 20 years or so, being something in between what you predict will happen and where we are now. But I still maintain this country is doing it’s fair share at present, and will continue to do so. Big players like China and India need to do more. What I would like to see more of, are policies that mitigate climate change such as planting billions of trees, if it helps, carbon capture, stuff like that instead of economically damaging ill thought out ones like banning gas boilers and new IC engines after some arbitrary date in the future. 

I honestly don't get the hang up regarding the responsibility of individual nations when the consequences will be global and every single human regardless of nationality will be culpable if they didn't help, but sound off, I guess. Just seems like getting a scapegoat in to shift blame in preparation for failure, which of course makes such failure a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

Anyway...

 

Regarding solutions, as per above a suite of solutions is called for and phasing out ICE vehicles, a major contributor, should be part of that I think. Yes, we should be engaging in active methods to reduce carbon overall such as planting trees, but actually drawing down on the emissions themselves has to go with it out we just end up postponing the problem, not solving it.

Edited 2 November 2022 by leicsmac

[foxes1988]

3 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Yes maybe. But as I keep on saying, you should be venting your anger at the big polluters. We are doing our bit! Quite a lot actually. 

 

2 hours ago, Fazzer 7 said:

@urban.spacemanasked me if I was advocating activism. That was my slightly cynical response. Yes you know my views on this subject.  I know yours, everyone on here does. Where we differ, I believe. Is you and many here seem to believe Britain should and can save the world against the effects of climate change. Clearly it can’t. What we’ve done here thus far is substantial in my view, and no doubt it will continue to be. Meanwhile, China and others continue building coal fired power stations. You no doubt will say we shouldn’t be participating in a race to the bottom. We’re not. But there is a limit to what we as a small country, with debt of more than trillion can do in the here and now. 

Your obsession with larger countries is a little incorrect/misplaced.  Using China as an example.

 

China has pledged to hit net zero before 2060.  When you consider the enormity of their economy and emissions its a much much much more ambitious target then the UKs 2050 pledge. They generate approx 27% of their electricity from renewables which isn't great of course but is far higher then most would imagine (the UK is around 41%).  They have 12 x the amount of wind power generation installed to what we have. Yet we like to bleat on about how we are world leading.  Yes offshore we have a lot but in total we are far from world leading.

 

By 2017 The Uk had contributed 4.85% to all time CO2 emissions China have contributed approx 12.7%.  For a country of their size they haven't contributed that much. When compared to all Europes 33% ( Most by any continent) of all time emissions seems pretty good by comparison .  Europe has a total population far smaller then China's.

 

Yes everyone needs to contribute but the the argument of 'well the big boys ain't doing it yet so what's the point' is toddler logic.

[fox_up_north]

We could also just stop having shit made in China. Most people just need some clothes, a phone, laptop and TV. Get well built stuff that lasts, rather than tat. 

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, Fazzer 7 said:

I foresee the future, next 20 years or so, being something in between what you predict will happen and where we are now. But I still maintain this country is doing it’s fair share at present, and will continue to do so. Big players like China and India need to do more. What I would like to see more of, are policies that mitigate climate change such as planting billions of trees, if it helps, carbon capture, stuff like that instead of economically damaging ill thought out ones like banning gas boilers and new IC engines after some arbitrary date in the future. 

We as individuals and as a nation have very little influence over China, we are no longer heavy hitters on a global stage and we walked away from our position in the third largest economy.  We can only take responsibility for our emissions.

 

What we can do is be at the fore front of renewable and sustainable technology, show the path for developed nations to get to carbon neutral.

[Dahnsouff]

16 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We as individuals and as a nation have very little influence over China, we are no longer heavy hitters on a global stage and we walked away from our position in the third largest economy.  We can only take responsibility for our emissions.

 

What we can do is be at the fore front of renewable and sustainable technology, show the path for developed nations to get to carbon neutral.

Yes, but as @fox_up_north says we can indirectly influence such countries by not funding their economy as vociferously as we currently do

[Fazzer 7]

@foxes1988

44 minutes ago, foxes1988 said:

'well the big boys ain't doing it yet so what's the point'

I have never said that. That implies we should do nothing.

 

45 minutes ago, foxes1988 said:

They generate approx 27% of their electricity from renewables which isn't great of course but is far higher then most would imagine (the UK is around 41%).  They have 12 x the amount of wind power generation installed to what we have. Yet we like to bleat on about how we are world leading. 

Given that China is approximately 39 times bigger than the UK, I think it kind of proves my point.

[Daggers]

[Dames]

Seems that Sunak only has two lines of attack. Remain and Corbyn both of which are very out of date. 

 

He also can't deliver it the same way as Johnson so he's already beginning to look desperate. 

[Fazzer 7]

35 minutes ago, Captain... said:

We as individuals and as a nation have very little influence over China, we are no longer heavy hitters on a global stage and we walked away from our position in the third largest economy.  We can only take responsibility for our emissions.

 

What we can do is be at the fore front of renewable and sustainable technology, show the path for developed nations to get to carbon neutral.

I would agree and I believe we are.

[Robo61]

1 hour ago, foxes1988 said:

 

Your obsession with larger countries is a little incorrect/misplaced.  Using China as an example.

 

China has pledged to hit net zero before 2060.  When you consider the enormity of their economy and emissions its a much much much more ambitious target then the UKs 2050 pledge. They generate approx 27% of their electricity from renewables which isn't great of course but is far higher then most would imagine (the UK is around 41%).  They have 12 x the amount of wind power generation installed to what we have. Yet we like to bleat on about how we are world leading.  Yes offshore we have a lot but in total we are far from world leading.

 

By 2017 The Uk had contributed 4.85% to all time CO2 emissions China have contributed approx 12.7%.  For a country of their size they haven't contributed that much. When compared to all Europes 33% ( Most by any continent) of all time emissions seems pretty good by comparison .  Europe has a total population far smaller then China's.

 

Yes everyone needs to contribute but the the argument of 'well the big boys ain't doing it yet so what's the point' is toddler logic.

To add to the above,  we in Europe and the wider west have got rich on the back of these emissions  China,India etc are for good reason trying to catch us up on the wealth front but are being asked to do sdo with one hand tied behind their backs.  That is not to say I want to untie them,  but  we have a moral obligation to help and encourage them to follow our path.

[foxes1988]

35 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

@foxes1988

I have never said that. That implies we should do nothing.

 

Given that China is approximately 39 times bigger than the UK, I think it kind of proves my point.

'well the big boys don't do quite as much as us so we get off scott free/without criticism' is just as foolish.

 

Population is a better way to look at energy generation then landmass (people use energy, land does not).  Their population is 20x times higher then ours and the have 12 x times the amount of wind generation as us and they are only going to get bigger and bigger with their more ambitious wind and solar plans then ours.

[Nod.E]

2 hours ago, foxes1988 said:

 

Your obsession with larger countries is a little incorrect/misplaced.  Using China as an example.

 

China has pledged to hit net zero before 2060.  When you consider the enormity of their economy and emissions its a much much much more ambitious target then the UKs 2050 pledge. They generate approx 27% of their electricity from renewables which isn't great of course but is far higher then most would imagine (the UK is around 41%).  They have 12 x the amount of wind power generation installed to what we have. Yet we like to bleat on about how we are world leading.  Yes offshore we have a lot but in total we are far from world leading.

 

By 2017 The Uk had contributed 4.85% to all time CO2 emissions China have contributed approx 12.7%.  For a country of their size they haven't contributed that much. When compared to all Europes 33% ( Most by any continent) of all time emissions seems pretty good by comparison .  Europe has a total population far smaller then China's.

 

Yes everyone needs to contribute but the the argument of 'well the big boys ain't doing it yet so what's the point' is toddler logic.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned dose of ignorance

[Parafox]

2 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

We could also just stop having shit made in China. Most people just need some clothes, a phone, laptop and TV. Get well built stuff that lasts, rather than tat. 

The problem with that hypothesis is that most of what is made in other countries relies on component parts made in China.

[Dahnsouff]

24 minutes ago, Parafox said:

The problem with that hypothesis is that most of what is made in other countries relies on component parts made in China.

Isn’t that in itself an opportunity though? Although you could be right as there are very few suitable chip fabrication factories I think

Edited 2 November 2022 by Dahnsouff

[Parafox]

6 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Isn’t that in itself an opportunity though?

Potentially, but I imagine China is fully geared up for demand and supply of tech parts, specialist or otherwise (they've been doing it for decades) and is a whole lot cheaper than other manufacturers. You can bet every modern machine/tech/ whatever, made anywhere in the world will have chips made in China. It's too far gone to go back now.

Edited 2 November 2022 by Parafox

[Fazzer 7]

Oh dear the FED have just hiked the US interest rate by .75. No doubt the BOE will follow. They’re trying to curb inflation which isn’t really being driven by demand . Seems the wrong thing to be doing, surely. 

[weller54]

22 minutes ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Oh dear the FED have just hiked the US interest rate by .75. No doubt the BOE will follow. They’re trying to curb inflation which isn’t really being driven by demand . Seems the wrong thing to be doing, surely. 

I expect the BOE to raise our interest rates by a full 1%.

[Fazzer 7]

3 minutes ago, weller54 said:

I expect the BOE to raise our interest rates by a full 1%.

I wouldn’t be surprised either. This is surely down to printing a trillion or more in QE over the last decade. 

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, Fazzer 7 said:

Oh dear the FED have just hiked the US interest rate by .75. No doubt the BOE will follow. They’re trying to curb inflation which isn’t really being driven by demand . Seems the wrong thing to be doing, surely. 

They have no option with inflation so high - the judgment is that a recession of some degree is a price worth laying to get control 

 

49 minutes ago, weller54 said:

I expect the BOE to raise our interest rates by a full 1%.

I reckon 75 basis points. I can’t see them going higher than the states on the rise 

 

[weller54]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

They have no option with inflation so high - the judgment is that a recession of some degree is a price worth laying to get control 

 

I reckon 75 basis points. I can’t see them going higher than the states on the rise 

 

The markets didn't like the 0.5 rise last time, they were expecting 0.75... therefore I'm expecting a full 1% tomorrow.

[st albans fox]

51 minutes ago, weller54 said:

The markets didn't like the 0.5 rise last time, they were expecting 0.75... therefore I'm expecting a full 1% tomorrow.

Agree with your assessment of last time - but I still think as long as they match the Americans this time it’s enough ….

 

if the income tax cuts had gone ahead next year then would definitely need to be 1%. 

Edited 2 November 2022 by st albans fox