Underachieving, overachieving or where we should be?

[StanSP]

Just now, Collymore said:

It comes purely down to results most of the time, doesn't it? 

It's never been about not trying or lack of effort, just the set up, which Rodgers would argue works most of the time if implemented in his head without any boomerangs! 

 

I just feel there's so many variables now it's really hard to benchmark what's happening at the club. 

 

 

I'm not sure, some players act like they don't care sometimes! Their lack of effort or sheer inability to do the basics right is staggering. 

 

The latter point is bang on. Which is why its so hard for me personally to be staunchly Rodgers out or vicariously Rodgers in. But having said that, I can't comprehend why some fans are so aggressively against watching us just because he is managing us. They're only a step away from willing us to lose just so he gets the boot. And that's a sad place to be in unfortunately if anyone gets to that stage. 

I remember Arsenal fans in that position as Wenger came to the end of his tenure. 

[VictorFox]

Rodgers is underachieving our squad should be top 7. Fact. 

[Collymore]

1 minute ago, StanSP said:

I'm not sure, some players act like they don't care sometimes!

Which players and why? 

[Guest Col city fan]

This season was literally effectively over when we lost Fofana. And I’m being genuine. Relying on the shaky defence for most of the season has gotten us exactly where I said it would. Nowhere

Now he and Evans can play together, we have a chance at the Europa conference. If they weren’t fit and we had to play the two Ronnies at CB, we’d be out already. 
This season… major regression under Rodgers 

[moore_94]

Our defence his been an absolute mess this season and our injuries have been a massive part of our poor season and us underachieving

 

19/20 - our most used defenders were Evans (46 appearances), Soyuncu (42), Ricardo (33), Chilwell (33), JJ (18), Morgan (17), Fuchs (17), Bennett (5), Thomas (3)

 

20/21 - our most used defenders were Fofana (38 appearances), Evans (37), Castagne (34), Soyuncu (32), JJ (31), Thomas (25), Ricardo (19), Amartey (17), Fuchs (16), Morgan (10)

 

21/22 - so far our most used defenders are Soyuncu (41 appearances), Amartey (34), Thomas (32), Castagne (30), Ricardo (22), Evans (21), Vestergaard (20), JJ (15), Bertrand (11), Fofana (7)

 

Going into a season where Ricardo is still not fully back from his ACL, Castagne has had his face smashed in, Fofana has had his leg broken, Evans is having issues with his foot and worrying about having to retire, and JJ is still out for half a season...

 

And your 3rd and 4th/5th choice centre backs, and probably 3rd choice left back are starting the majority of your games...

 

[fox_up_north]

6 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

This season was literally effectively over when we lost Fofana. And I’m being genuine. Relying on the shaky defence for most of the season has gotten us exactly where I said it would. Nowhere

Now he and Evans can play together, we have a chance at the Europa conference. If they weren’t fit and we had to play the two Ronnies at CB, we’d be out already. 
This season… major regression under Rodgers 

I remember being in a hotel room and getting that news. At that point, I just felt slightly like I expected a bad season. Maybe that's why this doesn't feel all that bad.

[CosbehFox]

28 minutes ago, Dames said:

I feel like over the past 3 years we’ve underachieved. Out of context two 5th places and an FA cup win are excellent and no doubt they are things we would have all taken and been extremely grateful for when Rodgers first joined.

 

However those 5th places were overshadowed by surrendering even better positions without much of a fight. The FA cup win is of course undisputed and the community shield a nice touch none of which can be slated at all. But when you look at our record in other cup competitions we’ve fallen short, especially given some of the favourable draws we’ve had (Villa, Slavia, Forest and this years Europa Group stage) or other teams fielding weakened sides (Liverpool this season).

 

It just feels like there was a real chance to do even better but those chances have been squandered. 
 

I dont expect us to win a cup or finish in the top 4 every season but we really should have done better and its not bad or entitled to have that opinion. 

 

 

We underachieved from the position we were in but the injuries at the end of the covid season were utterly ridiculous and it ended up being similar last season. 
 

It was very good management around November 2020 where we had lots of injuries but we were getting some very impressive results. Our back line at the win in Leeds had a central defensive three of Fuchs, Fofana and Justin with Albrighton and Thomas as wing backs. 
 

If the injuries occurred mid season, we’d have looked back on it under more favourable eyes. 

[StanSP]

8 minutes ago, Collymore said:

Which players and why? 

Perez. Today was a good example. Looked disinterested once we had gone behind. Maybe it was tiredness but he would get the ball and just not look bothered about doing anything with it. 

 

Soumare, however I will give him leniency if there have been personal issues. 

 

Soyuncu - form has dropped off a cliff for a considerably time. Doesn't seem to have the confidence to do anything that he used to be good at. He's playing like his head has been turned, too... 

 

Tielemans - perhaps not each game, but I don't see the passion to want to succeed for the club any more. Maybe his own contract and transfer situation plays into things here but that comes from within. He just looks totally out of touch and not looking close to regaining his form that he used to have. 

 

 

I admit I perhaps am being a bit harsh with my perception of things here but just how I feel sometimes watching them play. They're a detriment to the squad when they're totally off their game. 

 

 

[Ric Flair]

2 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

Our defence his been an absolute mess this season and our injuries have been a massive part of our poor season and us underachieving

 

19/20 - our most used defenders were Evans (46 appearances), Soyuncu (42), Ricardo (33), Chilwell (33), JJ (18), Morgan (17), Fuchs (17), Bennett (5), Thomas (3)

 

20/21 - our most used defenders were Fofana (38 appearances), Evans (37), Castagne (34), Soyuncu (32), JJ (31), Thomas (25), Ricardo (19), Amartey (17), Fuchs (16), Morgan (10)

 

21/22 - so far our most used defenders are Soyuncu (41 appearances), Amartey (34), Thomas (32), Castagne (30), Ricardo (22), Evans (21), Vestergaard (20), JJ (15), Bertrand (11), Fofana (7)

 

Going into a season where Ricardo is still not fully back from his ACL, Castagne has had his face smashed in, Fofana has had his leg broken, Evans is having issues with his foot and worrying about having to retire, and JJ is still out for half a season...

 

And your 3rd and 4th/5th choice centre backs, and probably 3rd choice left back are starting the majority of your games...

 

Still can't help but feel it runs a bit more than just that and if the club genuinely think that's mainly all it is then we they aren't going to take this as seriously as we need Rodgers and his team to.

 

I cannot have that it's purely Fofana that allows this team to cope with facing set pieces or stand a chance of scoring from one. We are absolutely abysmal at defending them and scoring them. Look at the Roma game, we had something daft like 9 corners in the 1st half alone and every single one of them was pointless, think they had 1 2nd half and got a decent header on. Frustrates me so much.

 

We've stopped creating anywhere near what we used to, the stats have got to back that up. I know we've also been efficient in front of goal under Rodgers and aren't a team that has 20+ shots a game with 10 on target and only score 1 or 2, if we had those sorts of figures we'd have scored a hatfull. There seems to be a lack of movement throughout the team and yet we don't take players on either and don't shoot on sight that often except for Maddison so it just seems like we try and walk the ball in the net and we seem quite straight forward to play against.

 

The last time we scored 3 in a PL game was when we lost 6-3 on Boxing Day, the goals have well and truly dried up as has the service. If we aren't going to regularly play 2 up top then Maddison or another player has to play closer to the striker and provide plenty of movement. 

 

Not being able to hold on to a lead as well is beggars belief, for a manager who craves control in games it's sacrilege.

[CosbehFox]

36 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Par for the course for this squad, the supposed elite manager on a huge salary and the ambition of this club is 55 points a season, it simply has to be. So we are likely below that, this recent poor run in the league has shown we are way off this season and there's little sympathy if we don't right some wrongs in the next month. 

 

Huge summer and next season ahead, we were never always going to have it sweetness and light. Now the hard work starts again, let's see what Brendan is made of.

Well summed up - a 8th or 9th place finish would be acceptable in the circumstance of how the season has panned out. As it’s been quite rightly laid out, there has been so many variables this season it’s hard to gauge it
 

Those variables next season will be a lot more clearer. There’s a full pre season available and the likelyhood is that the schedule will be less games. Rodgers has that first part of the season before the World Cup and if he doesn’t get something to click, then he’s a goner. I suspect he may quit himself to salvage his reputation if goes south. 
 

As a general rule of thumbs, I’ve said before Bela Guttman; the famous Benfica coach said the third season is always deadly. You have to evolve the squad or change the manager as the messages they give off become tired. A three season span with a manager I think is generally fair. 

Edited 1 May 2022 by Cardiff_Fox

[sacreblueits442]

3 hours ago, sdb said:

I think anyone totally 'Rodgers Out ' is probably bound to be under 25 and slightly spoilt by our last decade, but I could certainly understand those who feel a rot setting in. 

....that is an amazing assumption...!!!

We keep coming back to I am a better supporter than you....mantra!!

[Dan]

Underachieving. As a club we aren't but as a squad we are.

[Ric Flair]

1 minute ago, Dan LCFC said:

Underachieving. As a club we aren't but as a squad we are.

Possibly the best way of explaining it so succinctly I've seen. Spot on

[dmayne7]

6 minutes ago, Dan LCFC said:

Underachieving. As a club we aren't but as a squad we are.

Absolutely this. This year I'd say that we're underachieving as a club in respect of wage budget, manager salary etc.

 

I do think some people need to accept the club is no longer the yo-yo club it was, and one of the bigger teams in the country (even if that hasn't fully translated into national fanbase) Won't last forever but that's where we are for the foreseeable future.

[Collibosher70]

Great thread 👏.

I've never been a massive rodgers supporter but I never want to see a leicester manager fail either.

It's a strange one really...two top 5 finishes are superb (but 2 top 4's should've been nailed on) an FA cup win for the 1st time ever...and a community shield....but we haven't pushed on...yes the injuries didn't help but neither does rodgers stubborn tactics.

I'm all for giving him the summer to rebuild...but on his current recruitment I'm not too confident things will improve....but I'm hoping I'm proved wrong.

[PhillippaT]

I blame the Tigers - them being successful again this season means the Foxes can't be  

[Guy]

4 hours ago, foxinsocks said:

I am nearest to a 2.

It's not black and white. Hes done some good.  But he has blind spots that he has failed to address (... and his team of elves do not compensate for).  But that's all managers isnt it.

But, I believe he must go as he is now pursuing his posession obsession and it is killing creativity and slowing our football... even to a point where we are second to everything.   This is brendans future...65% posession and no shots on goal.

I cant think any supporters can think this style is  acceptable.  

So help me... why arent more ft posters calling for an end?

It's not about this season... it's where he is taking us.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the negative reasons above are pretty much why the previous manager was shown the door in essence really! I remain on the fence about Rodgers for now though (given all the injuries we've had at the crucial time aka for most of this season of course) and think next season will be the one to judge him by the most so far. 

I suppose because Rodgers won us the FA Cup for the first time in our history last season though (albeit a seriously 'watered down' competition since the Premier League started in 1992 and even more so after Manchester United-gate in 1999 of course - but nevertheless, still a reasonably coveted trophy), together with the relatively unchartered territory of two consecutive 5th place finishes in the league, then that probably gives him more credit in the bank that his predecessor still. Even so that scooby doo mask pulling off to reveal Puel's imposter as Rodgers has at the present time proved to have been fairly uncanny! 

[Lambert09]

1 hour ago, Collibosher70 said:

Great thread 👏.

I've never been a massive rodgers supporter but I never want to see a leicester manager fail either.

It's a strange one really...two top 5 finishes are superb (but 2 top 4's should've been nailed on) an FA cup win for the 1st time ever...and a community shield....but we haven't pushed on...yes the injuries didn't help but neither does rodgers stubborn tactics.

I'm all for giving him the summer to rebuild...but on his current recruitment I'm not too confident things will improve....but I'm hoping I'm proved wrong.

i’m on the fence with what to do next. I don’t think we would get away with another summer like the last one. It could lead to the dismantling of all of our good work over the last decade.  There comes a point when the old hero’s can’t bail us out anymore 

[Dave Fishwick]

this season we're definitely over achieving compared to the underlying stats, however that is clearly at odds with the preseason expectations. This can slightly be excused by a number of factors, injuries, European games, players chucking towel in. But that is the job of the manager to manage those things accordingly

 

he's got a small rebuild coming this next year or so with key players at the spine of our team likely to leave. Time to shit or get off the pot, no room for sentimentalities here.

[Nod.E]

It's such a difficult argument, whichever side of the fence you sit, and is probably why we see such polarisation.

 

For many, the context of any performance is how well we're doing 'for Leicester'. History would dictate that any top league finish is decent and if you can get top half, that's more than enough.

 

Others, me included, look at what we did in 15/16, how we followed that up with an opportunity to finish top 4 and blowing it twice, as well as arguably a few too many blown millions on poor players, and worry that we're missing an opportunity to establish ourselves.

 

Granted, we don't have top 4 money, and I don't think it'd be reasonable to expect us to challenge for top 4 every year. 

 

What I do think could have been possible, though, is to reinvent the 'top 6' and see that become a 'top 7'. That genuinely appeared possible, and could have been sustained after cup wins, a premier League and consecutive top 5 finishes.

 

What a lot of fans have sensed, even amidst the top 5 finishes, is a malaise. A slow decline. What we've seen this year has been consistently disappointing, but what disappoints me most is Brendan's play that, not in so many words, we're just Leicester, so manage your expectations. And so what if we do decline to just do what Leicester have done historically? 

 

It feels like this is a moment in time, and this huge opportunity is slipping through our fingers. With recent success, the buzz that brings, the players that attracts, and yes the money it brings, we had every right to hope we might become an established top side, right now. 

 

The atmosphere at the stadium should tell you everything you need to know. It's so flat. Everyone senses the decline whether they like to admit it or not.

 

Conference league success or not, my take is that we'll continue our slow decline. Could be next season, could be the next. Eventually we'll get too close to relegation for comfort, and that'll be the end of Brendan. After that? Who knows, all up in the air. But what a shame that by then, that opportunity will be long gone, and fans of Brendan will point to cup successes to gloss over a missed opportunity to grasp what could have been. Hopefully I'm wrong on that, but another repeat of this season and I think the owners will pull the trigger.

 

There's another scenario which isn't totally out of the realms of possibility whereby we do keep players fit, we have a decent summer of recruitment, and we learn some lessons from this season. Perhaps then we may finish 6th or 7th, and that's something we should be reasonably happy with. But it absolutely should not be declared an amazing job or an overachievement. It should be a pat on the back for Brendan turning things around and doing a decent job, and on to the next season.

 

With the infrastructure being put in place, training ground and stadium, there is absolutely no reason for us to apologise for our history. Let's just hope that by the time Brendan is done, we still have a squad befitting of that infrastructure and are able to challenge for the European spots. 

 

The ironic thing is that another poor summer of transfers and it may in fact indeed become unrealistic to expect Europe, and maybe then we can all just agree to accept mid table because that's all we were ever meant to be? Some on here might be happier with that.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

9 hours ago, Collymore said:

...so you're in zone 1! 

 

Fair play like, just interested to hear why. 

I think we're under achieving but I also don't know who we could get better than Rodgers so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and think he should get at least 8 games next season before the pile on starts.

 

That said, if we finish this season with a whimper he's in trouble. I don't think we will if he can play our first team though.

[Vacamion]

 

The injuries have had an effect on our style of play and our lack of resilience, as well as on our points/League position.

 

Add in that Vardy not playing much this season is a foretaste of what is inevitably going to happen at some point.  Daka and Iheanacho might end up being decent, but they aint Vardy. No one is.  Missing a player who has been soooooo massive for us has been a huge hit this season.

 

And then you add all our many injuries and difficulties in the defence, as @moore_94 outlined so well, above.

 

Then Wilf got injured.

 

People have been critical of Tielemans, but he's been asked to play a bit more defensively because of absences elsewhere, and it adds to us looking less creative, less attacking. 

 

Clubs which change managers frequently don't tend to do well, and we were becoming a bit of a managerial revolving door club when Rodgers arrived.

 

I think he needs to be given into next season, given a chance to refresh bit in the Summer and to work with a fit squad.

 

I agree with the sentiment that a season out of Europe (and I still hope we are in the Europa  ) might not be the worst thing for us.

 

I can't agree with all this talk of the club getting rid if we go out on Thursday. Deciding a manager's future on one result, a semi-final at that, seems a bit rash.

 

 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

8 hours ago, Collymore said:

Which players and why? 

Soyuncu. Hes an absolute shadow of the player he was.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

7 hours ago, Guy said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the negative reasons above are pretty much why the previous manager was shown the door in essence really! I remain on the fence about Rodgers for now though (given all the injuries we've had at the crucial time aka for most of this season of course) and think next season will be the one to judge him by the most so far. 

I suppose because Rodgers won us the FA Cup for the first time in our history last season though (albeit a seriously 'watered down' competition since the Premier League started in 1992 and even more so after Manchester United-gate in 1999 of course - but nevertheless, still a reasonably coveted trophy), together with the relatively unchartered territory of two consecutive 5th place finishes in the league, then that probably gives him more credit in the bank that his predecessor still. Even so that scooby doo mask pulling off to reveal Puel's imposter as Rodgers has at the present time proved to have been fairly uncanny! 

He was shown the door because we lost 5 league games in a row.

[W7Fox]

7 hours ago, PhillippaT said:

I blame the Tigers - them being successful again this season means the Foxes can't be  

Hahahaa - historically there is a correlation.