Leicester to reveal estimated annual losses of £119.5MILLION - the highest in the Premier League

[18to18]

1 hour ago, Golden Fox said:

The report is based on wages of £193m increasing to £213m due to new contracts + extensions.

Don't have much info on this, but 2021 stated that there were management bonuses paid in that year relating to the previous year due to the extension of the season due to Covid.

This does not appear to have been a factor in the report, so might not be that much, although I wouldn't feel the 10% increase is too far out.

(Bear in mind, this is total wages for the club, including management, staff, coaches etc & pensions, NI etc, and not just player wages). 

 

How?  At an average of 100k per week over 30ish squad players, that's £156m per year.  There's no way that the 30 squad players should be on an average of 100k per week.  But even allowing for that, does that mean that the staff, management, their reports, grounds crews, the ladies and the academy cost 55m per year??

 

 

[Terraloon]

Golden Fox

 

 

 

Turnover

8th place in 2022 got us £134.1m. 5th place in 2021 got us £141.3m. That is a reduction of £7.2m. 

 

That is only the PL broadcast money. The lack of prize money and broadcast money for early exit in the FACup year on year will impact by potential £4 million

My estimate is £11 million less

 

The FBS income is not clearly visible.

 

This was actually signed towards the end of May 2021. I think it must be apportioned according to the periods worn on the shirts, so I think this would be a significant uplift - potentially £10-£20m a year at least, but might be more?

I think that the uplift is £8 million per annum. It’s reported KP paid £4 million FBS will pay £12 million in respect of front of shirt

 

The 2022 run to European semi final is something in the region of £20m, compared to £13.6m in 2021.

 

Think you are wildly off here.You get paid for each win each draw in the EL add to that £1 million for winning the Group. In effect at EL group stage in 20/21 there were 4 wins and a draw +the bonus for winning the group add to that there was a £400k payment for participation in the R32. 

 

In 21/2 the two games less won will have cost circa £2.5 million and not winning the group as I say will have cost £1 million add to that £500k less for not playing in the EL group of 32 that’s £4 million but the good news the extra drawn  game will have benefited to the tune of £200 k. So around £3.5 million less. Dropping into the EL Conference helped but…

 

The EL conference prize money was £254k for winning the play off, £500k for winning  the group of 16, £850 k for the winning the quarters.So that about £1.7 million more 

 

I would estimate around £10 million in total not the £20 million you suggest

 

 

 

I think  turnover will decrease by  £10 million as a minimum 

 

 

Wages

The report is based on wages of £193m increasing to £213m due to new contracts + extensions.

Don't have much info on this, but 2021 stated that there were management bonuses paid in that year relating to the previous year due to the extension of the season due to Covid.

This does not appear to have been a factor in the report, so might not be that much, although I wouldn't feel the 10% increase is too far out.

(Bear in mind, this is total wages for the club, including management, staff, coaches etc & pensions, NI etc, and not just player wages). 
 

Wages are the real difficult one because in 20/21 there undoubtedly would have been player bonuses for the FA Cup which won’t feature in 21/22 but we’re there bonuses paid for the European semi achievement? 
 

What we’re the additional costs for having in effect two training grounds, the extra costs of the woman’s football etc etc.

 

I doubt that wages jumped by £20 million but I can easily see easily see how running costs etc were more and that excludes interest.

 

Transfers

We had a net outflow in 2021 of £28m. Based on reported figures for 2022, this is a net outflow of £57m, so £29m worse.

It does make you want to cry when you realise this massive sum in the context of our finances was only actually Daka, Soumare & Vestergaard.

 

Go with your £29 million sum

 

Interest

 

Given we are funding Seagrave through loans, the increase in interest feels a bit light, but wouldn't disagree completely.

 

This will show a significant leap because it’s not just the extra loans taken out from the owners but the uplift in the sums payable to McQuire  due to the extra borrowed from them. I reckon around £5-10 million more 

Accounting wise to include things like increased depreciation I reckon loss would be over £100 million and sorry I can see it creeping up to £110+ million 

 

 

 

Edited 6 September 2022 by Terraloon

[Area88]

This report is prior to us selling Fofana.

 

We have balanced the books already. Close the thread.

[FoxinNotts]

2 minutes ago, Area88 said:

This report is prior to us selling Fofana.

 

We have balanced the books already. Close the thread.

kind of, but not really

[KFS]

1 minute ago, FoxinNotts said:

kind of, but not really

If we haven’t this summer we certainly will next. I don’t have wage figures but these are the players that walk out the door next year:

Soyuncu

Amartey 

Evans

Bertrand 

Mendy

Tielemans

Perez

 

Sell of Vestergaard and Praet cheap and all of a sudden we can start again. 

 

 

[ParkerPen]

if your gonna have a bad year, have a bad year. please include Rogers severance pay in here. ta.

[Fox92]

19 minutes ago, KFS said:

If we haven’t this summer we certainly will next. I don’t have wage figures but these are the players that walk out the door next year:

Soyuncu

Amartey 

Evans

Bertrand 

Mendy

Tielemans

Perez

 

Sell of Vestergaard and Praet cheap and all of a sudden we can start again. 

 

 

All we need then is a new squad.

[Bluearmyfox28]

21 minutes ago, KFS said:

If we haven’t this summer we certainly will next. I don’t have wage figures but these are the players that walk out the door next year:

Soyuncu

Amartey 

Evans

Bertrand 

Mendy

Tielemans

Perez

 

Sell of Vestergaard and Praet cheap and all of a sudden we can start again. 

 

 

Dependent on Amartey’s wages I wouldn’t be surprised if he is back. Evans 100% should be given a new contract.

[Golden Fox]

@Terraloon My point wasn't to claim I had more inside information than the original article, but to see if I could work out how they were getting to the £119.5m loss and if it was sensible - which I didn't think it was.

 

Those outside the club are feeding off scraps of information (offthepitch, myself, you, SwissRamble) trying to estimate how numbers have moved without any real knowledge, and there will be all sorts of other factors at play in the accounts, but this is what makes the original article so frustrating as it passes off these estimates as fact.

 

Its useful for someone else to look at turnover, as I think that is key: you have gone into more detail, and have estimated a drop from 2021 of £10m - which is still a £20m improvement on the original articles' £30 million reduction - so although we differ on the amount of improvement, it does backs up my view that one of the main assumptions for the scale of the loss is flawed and not likely to be in the ballpark they were suggesting.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Terraloon said:

The 2022 run to European semi final is something in the region of £20m, compared to £13.6m in 2021.

 

Think you are wildly off here

Specifically on the Europa money, the source for this was from the Mercury: https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leicester-europa-conference-league-earnings-6430643

 

A bit of a sprawling article, but it had the following paragraph (and this was before the Randers game):
 

 

 

 

@Stadt I got to the following screen and pressed Download report. Needed to put in my email address & it opened in another tab.

 

Although for all the glossy presentation, the only actual text in the report other than the headline number that talks about our finances is:

[woody01530]

Maybe paying Rebecca's legal fees has done it? 

[Bucks fox]

On 04/09/2022 at 18:04, CrispinLA in Texas said:

Let me guess wasting money on s**t players eg 14m for Vesty plus nearly 5m a year wages paying signing on fee for Bertrand and paying him nearly 5m a year, Ward cost us 10m, Hamza on 60k a year....the list goes on etc etc

No wonder Hamza went to Watford on loan if that's all he was earning!!

[CrispinLA in Texas]

5 minutes ago, Bucks fox said:

No wonder Hamza went to Watford on loan if that's all he was earning!!

We're subsidizing his wages and he's getting games

[Bucks fox]

26 minutes ago, CrispinLA in Texas said:

We're subsidizing his wages and he's getting games

Yeah at £60K A YEAR!!! 

[Terraloon]

 

Its useful for someone else to look at turnover, as I think that is key: you have gone into more detail, and have estimated a drop from 2021 of £10m - which is still a £20m improvement on the original articles' £30 million reduction - so although we differ on the amount of improvement, it does backs up my view that one of the main assumptions for the scale of the loss is flawed and not likely to be in the ballpark they were suggesting.

 

The reductions in term of season 20/21 to 21/22 is only one part of the equation you have to then drill deeper down.

 

The 21/22  accounting year in terms of income  was massively inflated  in that £28 million broadcast revenue from  the 20/21 season because 9 of the 20/21 seasons games were played in the 21/22 accounting  year so that sum wasn’t paid till the 21/22 trading year similarly £5 million of advertising and sponsorship likewise applicable to the 20/ 21 season featured in the 21/22 accounting year. 
 

So £28 million + £7.2 reduced PL prize money +£5 million sponsorship so that’s £40 million . 
 

Likewise the bulk of the FA cup revenue for the season 20/21 didn’t feature till 21/22  accounting year again inflating and of course the early exit in 21/22 will show a reduction in prize money.

 

Revenue of course for match day will jump but so will other expenses 
 

 

[CosbehFox]

Thought my Dad made a good point last week when he says the situation around the wage bill as an end of days O'Neill / Taylor vibe where the club committed themselves on OTT wages rather than being prudent with it and doubled down on occasions. 

[Foxy-Lady]

On 04/09/2022 at 17:56, Solihullfox said:

And you’ll eventually accidentally pull a ladyboy on a works night out 

And there speaks the voice of experience...!

[gurru991]

I am very surprised that LCFC have got themselves into this mess. I was quite proud & sometimes overly vocal about City being a very well run club but it turns out we've been a tad irresponsible with the credit card.

My hope is that we can get back on track without getting relegated and hopefully learn a lesson.

 

[Terraloon]

8 hours ago, KFS said:

If we haven’t this summer we certainly will next. I don’t have wage figures but these are the players that walk out the door next year:

Soyuncu

Amartey 

Evans

Bertrand 

Mendy

Tielemans

Perez

 

Sell of Vestergaard and Praet cheap and all of a sudden we can start again. 

 

 

The reported loss is for the year 21/22. That year is done and dusted 

The current year is for 22/23. The WF money will massively help but that alone is likely enough to balance the books this season.

 

Yes players will be moved on and that will be key but other costs will need to be kept down, which won’t be easy but the reality is that to break even in 23/24 player trading will need to at a minimum match the sum charged for amortisation and or significant growth in other sources of income

 

least sales will have to match the sum charged to amortisation 

 

[Chrysalis]

On 04/09/2022 at 19:07, lcfc_forever said:

Was thinking exactly this. 
 

Only way to overcome it is having super-rich owners and/or major commercial revenue.
 

We have neither currently, albeit our owners are billionaires but not the level of Newcastle or Man City. 

I mentioned this a couple seasons back as did others, we mentioned the high wages, the lack of growth commercially, but we was shot down as our owners were untouchable.

 

We currently have two training grounds, logically the old one would have been sold.  We havent expanded the stadium despite having 6 seasons to do so, and KP were paying a pittance for sponsorship for multiple years.  I also remember been concerned by all the 3rd party loans, club run like a pay day loan sort of way.  The KP loan to fund the infrastructure ok, but loans against TV money to fund the squad, that was always concerning to me, these things tend to not end well, its like what Barcelona are doing now using future TV monies for the now at the expense of their future.  However previously the TV loans were only for one season, now apparently the latest is a multi year deal?  The club is over stretched and the question that remains now will Top put his hand in his pocket to get it back on track.  His father converted to equity for a debt reset.

Edited 6 September 2022 by Chrysalis

[Heathrow fox]

10 hours ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

Thought my Dad made a good point last week when he says the situation around the wage bill as an end of days O'Neill / Taylor vibe where the club committed themselves on OTT wages rather than being prudent with it and doubled down on occasions. 

Encouraged by the fans when things were going well.Then the same fans demanded to know why we couldn’t get shot of certain players when it all went pear shaped  

[Chelmofox]

Just received me members plus pack. The gift was an empty wallet. The team calendar for September has pictures of Vesty and Fofana.

 

I do feel the club are just taking the pi** out of me.

[Bob Farley]

7 hours ago, Chelmofox said:

Just received me members plus pack. The gift was an empty wallet. The team calendar for September has pictures of Vesty and Fofana.

 

I do feel the club are just taking the pi** out of me.

Would of been nice if there was some cash in the wallet. 

[eblair]

Just as point to raise. In their last 3 financial statements Brighton have had a total loss of around 125m

 

we are not only club around our size spending beyond our worth

 

Important to note that the financials don’t include player valuations, so our biggest losses were probably being offset by fact we had very valuable players in Ndidi, Youri, Fofana, Barnes and Maddison

 

problem at moment is Brendan is making all these players worthless atm

[UHDrive]

On 06/09/2022 at 09:00, Terraloon said:

Golden Fox

 

 

 

Turnover

8th place in 2022 got us £134.1m. 5th place in 2021 got us £141.3m. That is a reduction of £7.2m. 

 

That is only the PL broadcast money. The lack of prize money and broadcast money for early exit in the FACup year on year will impact by potential £4 million

My estimate is £11 million less

 

The FBS income is not clearly visible.

 

This was actually signed towards the end of May 2021. I think it must be apportioned according to the periods worn on the shirts, so I think this would be a significant uplift - potentially £10-£20m a year at least, but might be more?

I think that the uplift is £8 million per annum. It’s reported KP paid £4 million FBS will pay £12 million in respect of front of shirt

 

The 2022 run to European semi final is something in the region of £20m, compared to £13.6m in 2021.

 

Think you are wildly off here.You get paid for each win each draw in the EL add to that £1 million for winning the Group. In effect at EL group stage in 20/21 there were 4 wins and a draw +the bonus for winning the group add to that there was a £400k payment for participation in the R32. 

 

In 21/2 the two games less won will have cost circa £2.5 million and not winning the group as I say will have cost £1 million add to that £500k less for not playing in the EL group of 32 that’s £4 million but the good news the extra drawn  game will have benefited to the tune of £200 k. So around £3.5 million less. Dropping into the EL Conference helped but…

 

The EL conference prize money was £254k for winning the play off, £500k for winning  the group of 16, £850 k for the winning the quarters.So that about £1.7 million more 

 

I would estimate around £10 million in total not the £20 million you suggest

 

 

 

I think  turnover will decrease by  £10 million as a minimum 

 

 

Wages

The report is based on wages of £193m increasing to £213m due to new contracts + extensions.

Don't have much info on this, but 2021 stated that there were management bonuses paid in that year relating to the previous year due to the extension of the season due to Covid.

This does not appear to have been a factor in the report, so might not be that much, although I wouldn't feel the 10% increase is too far out.

(Bear in mind, this is total wages for the club, including management, staff, coaches etc & pensions, NI etc, and not just player wages). 
 

Wages are the real difficult one because in 20/21 there undoubtedly would have been player bonuses for the FA Cup which won’t feature in 21/22 but we’re there bonuses paid for the European semi achievement? 
 

What we’re the additional costs for having in effect two training grounds, the extra costs of the woman’s football etc etc.

 

I doubt that wages jumped by £20 million but I can easily see easily see how running costs etc were more and that excludes interest.

 

Transfers

We had a net outflow in 2021 of £28m. Based on reported figures for 2022, this is a net outflow of £57m, so £29m worse.

It does make you want to cry when you realise this massive sum in the context of our finances was only actually Daka, Soumare & Vestergaard.

 

Go with your £29 million sum

 

Interest

 

Given we are funding Seagrave through loans, the increase in interest feels a bit light, but wouldn't disagree completely.

 

This will show a significant leap because it’s not just the extra loans taken out from the owners but the uplift in the sums payable to McQuire  due to the extra borrowed from them. I reckon around £5-10 million more 

Accounting wise to include things like increased depreciation I reckon loss would be over £100 million and sorry I can see it creeping up to £110+ million 

 

 

 

Thanks for this. Sorry if I am asking a stupid question but does this include season and match day tickets? 

 

The extra 8K in tickets will make a big difference.

[Terraloon]

On 06/09/2022 at 01:30, 18to18 said:

How?  At an average of 100k per week over 30ish squad players, that's £156m per year.  There's no way that the 30 squad players should be on an average of 100k per week.  But even allowing for that, does that mean that the staff, management, their reports, grounds crews, the ladies and the academy cost 55m per year??

 

 

The last set of accounts reported there were some 77 players and 435 other employees with on average an additional 295 employed on match days.

Wages were £158.8 million, an additional £9.4 million paid by way of benefits in kind( company cars etc but also sums paid outside players contracts for such things as agents fees) £23.2 million was paid in respect of NIC and finally £0.6 million in respect of pension contributions