Tactics Under Maresca

[UniFox21]

14 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Everyone on here needs to listen to this. It's only 20 minutes long but gives great insight.

 

Here's a link for those that don't have a BBC account (I don't because I think their service has gone down the toliet):

 

 

 

"We might be patient, but it's with purpose, and that purpose is to win! We were 1-0 down against Coventry but remained patient, our goal came from 15-20 passes from our goalkeeper."

 

"One chance Jannick got all the way to the 18 yard box before a challenge came in. That's why sometimes he will just walk forward with ball"

Haven't had chance to fully listen to this yet; but already I feel like we're being told what our journey is going to be like, what our identity will be

Something communication wise we never really had under BR

Edited 20 August 2023 by UniFox21

[BenTheFox]

I'm on board with him. What I would say is that a drawback of the system and how it is being implemented is that we are not seeing the best of Ricardo. Ricardo out wide where he has space can be very dangerous and it feels like we are stifling him in this deep central position. 

Edited 20 August 2023 by BenTheFox

[KFS]

52 minutes ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm on board with him. What I would say is that a drawback of the system and how it is being implemented is that we are not seeing the best of Ricardo. Ricardo out wide where he has space can be very dangerous and it feels like we are stifling him in this deep central position. 

I have been thinking this, but equally he’s actually staying fit. I think, as a result of not being kicked to shit all game.

[Gamble92]

I'm completely on board with what he is trying to achieve. I love his interviews and the way he talks about what he is looking to implement. That said -

 

Yet again i am left baffled by the decision making of the club. No doubt philosophy would have been a key point at the interviews for the job. We are a squad stacked with full backs/wing backs, 2/3 quick forwards who love space in behind and had very little in the way of box to box midfielders (so much so ****ing Ndidi is used as one). So with all that in mind you surely know a huge overhaul is needed of quite a lot of players you have only just signed. I'm not buying that they haven't had time to do this. And if you think it's too much of an ask to get it done before the season starts then you have to question the decision to appoint him. It's a very niche philosophy compared to most other candidates interviewed. 

[shen]

8 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

I'm on board with him. What I would say is that a drawback of the system and how it is being implemented is that we are not seeing the best of Ricardo. Ricardo out wide where he has space can be very dangerous and it feels like we are stifling him in this deep central position. 

 

7 hours ago, KFS said:

I have been thinking this, but equally he’s actually staying fit. I think, as a result of not being kicked to shit all game.

He's also had two serious injuries, is getting older, and frankly hasn't shown he's as good as Ricardo from 3-4 years ago. 

I think memory is clouding our judgement here and that he might well be more effective for us in his new role.

[Tom12345]

7 hours ago, Gamble92 said:

I'm completely on board with what he is trying to achieve. I love his interviews and the way he talks about what he is looking to implement. That said -

 

Yet again i am left baffled by the decision making of the club. No doubt philosophy would have been a key point at the interviews for the job. We are a squad stacked with full backs/wing backs, 2/3 quick forwards who love space in behind and had very little in the way of box to box midfielders (so much so ****ing Ndidi is used as one). So with all that in mind you surely know a huge overhaul is needed of quite a lot of players you have only just signed. I'm not buying that they haven't had time to do this. And if you think it's too much of an ask to get it done before the season starts then you have to question the decision to appoint him. It's a very niche philosophy compared to most other candidates interviewed. 

He also needs to look at the players he has, count himself lucky to have them in the Championship, and adjust accordingly.

 

We desperately need to stop putting square pegs through round holes.

 

An excellent manager, like Fergie was, can adjust style of play to suit the players he has. Fergie was more about personality and mentality than being fixated on a style.

 

Same as Guardiola in truth. He is not one dimensional which is why he keeps winning (yes he also has the money I know, but as Chelsea shows money does not buy instant success).

 

This guy has yet to prove himself at any level as a manager. So let’s wait and see before going all in.

Edited 21 August 2023 by Tom12345

[Sparrowhawk]

1 hour ago, Tom12345 said:

So let’s wait and see before going all in.

I agree that having won four out of four and shown plenty of very encouraging signs, it's a bit early to put the boot in on a brand new manager.

Singing 'F*** off Enzo Maresca' would be a tad premature at this stage. Even for Leicester fans. Although we are only second, so I wouldn't put it past some of us.

[Sparrowhawk]

10 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

Ricardo out wide where he has space can be very dangerous

Agree completely!

 

10 hours ago, BenTheFox said:

it feels like we are stifling him in this deep central position

Disagree completely! He's showing he can be just as dangerous, but in a different way. I imagine Maresca would love a squad full of players as intelligent, versatile, and comfortable with the ball as Ricardo.

[Finnegan]

I have to say, I am a bit concerned by how few of our patterns of play actually end up with a chance created for a central striker. Maresca's football is aesthetically far more enjoyable to watch than Rodgers' had been for two years. It's more vertical, direct, dynamic. But we've got a lot of the same problems, still very little actual end product. 

 

I'm trying to think, is Iheanacho against Burton the only goal including pre season that one of the forwards has scored? 

 

I appreciate creativity in the final third is going to be a challenge when you don't have the personnel yet that you want but we're starting to face the distinct possibility now that we won't actually be able to recruit many more of significant caliber up top. So what's the plan for the rest of the year? Scrape out one goal wins relying on the midfield to contribute with late winners? 

 

Yeah yeah, "they need time" of course. But I'd still expect to see us at least attempt to provide more service than we have to the strikers. It's been intensely lacking. 

 

[Gamble92]

2 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

He also needs to look at the players he has, count himself lucky to have them in the Championship, and adjust accordingly.

 

We desperately need to stop putting square pegs through round holes.

 

An excellent manager, like Fergie was, can adjust style of play to suit the players he has. Fergie was more about personality and mentality than being fixated on a style.

 

Same as Guardiola in truth. He is not one dimensional which is why he keeps winning (yes he also has the money I know, but as Chelsea shows money does not buy instant success).

 

This guy has yet to prove himself at any level as a manager. So let’s wait and see before going all in.

I'm not going in on him. Quite the opposite. I think he deserves better than to work under the clowns above him. Something that'll probably catch up with us down the line.

 

just from a financial perspective to go out and buy Souttar and Kristensen and have them now unused is another balls up. Not saying we should base everything around 2 players, but it's yet another example of having no forward vision. 

 

 

[Sparrowhawk]

22 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I have to say, I am a bit concerned by how few of our patterns of play actually end up with a chance created for a central striker. Maresca's football is aesthetically far more enjoyable to watch than Rodgers' had been for two years. It's more vertical, direct, dynamic. But we've got a lot of the same problems, still very little actual end product. 

 

I'm trying to think, is Iheanacho against Burton the only goal including pre season that one of the forwards has scored? 

 

I appreciate creativity in the final third is going to be a challenge when you don't have the personnel yet that you want but we're starting to face the distinct possibility now that we won't actually be able to recruit many more of significant caliber up top. So what's the plan for the rest of the year? Scrape out one goal wins relying on the midfield to contribute with late winners? 

 

Yeah yeah, "they need time" of course. But I'd still expect to see us at least attempt to provide more service than we have to the strikers. It's been intensely lacking. 

 

All reasonable points. But - we have scored five in three games, and it's not as if we're taking every chance we make. I know stats are pretty much meaningless so early on, but that is nearly two goals a game. If whoever plays as striker is involved in the play, and if the chances are made, and if enough of them are scored, does it matter who gets on the end of them?

[honeybradger]

32 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

I have to say, I am a bit concerned by how few of our patterns of play actually end up with a chance created for a central striker. Maresca's football is aesthetically far more enjoyable to watch than Rodgers' had been for two years. It's more vertical, direct, dynamic. But we've got a lot of the same problems, still very little actual end product. 

 

I'm trying to think, is Iheanacho against Burton the only goal including pre season that one of the forwards has scored? 

 

I appreciate creativity in the final third is going to be a challenge when you don't have the personnel yet that you want but we're starting to face the distinct possibility now that we won't actually be able to recruit many more of significant caliber up top. So what's the plan for the rest of the year? Scrape out one goal wins relying on the midfield to contribute with late winners? 

 

Yeah yeah, "they need time" of course. But I'd still expect to see us at least attempt to provide more service than we have to the strikers. It's been intensely lacking. 

 

I was hoping we would be doing more cutbacks and passes in the "corridor of uncertainty" between the centrebacks and goal keeper. That's primarily how Man City supply their forwards, hopefully with a right winger in and Casadei starting we might see some more creativity in the side.

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

All reasonable points. But - we have scored five in three games, and it's not as if we're taking every chance we make. I know stats are pretty much meaningless so early on, but that is nearly two goals a game. If whoever plays as striker is involved in the play, and if the chances are made, and if enough of them are scored, does it matter who gets on the end of them?

 

It is a problem to an extent if our best chances are falling to people who can't take them. 

 

We had this habit in pre season of putting together an absolutely brilliant move only for it to fall to Ndidi. Against Huddersfield, we played some scintillating football only for Dennis Praet to leave a brace out there. 

 

If we're going to keep creating chances for that position and it turns out Casadei is the finisher we hope he is then obviously I'm not going to be upset if our top scorer on the way to promotion is a centre mid and not a striker. 

 

But we aren't creating much and it is a bit of a concern. Some of us raised similar concerns over the last two years and were hand waved off as being too negative. I don't want to piss on anyone's bonfire but we've played two of the worst teams in the league back to back and have made a real chore of it relying on a set piece goal, a late goalmouth scramble and a keeper being nutmegged at his near post. 

 

You can't ride that sort of luck forever. We need to start creating more chances. 

[Happy Fox]

I am not really bothered who scores the goals at this level, strikers / midfielders / defenders as long as we score the goals.

 

Nacho had a goalscoring opportunity and was unlucky not to score that goal, we had plenty of chances. If we are not creating the chances I would be worried, but we are and we will get more free flowing in time.

[Finnegan]

8 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

I was hoping we would be doing more cutbacks and passes in the "corridor of uncertainty" between the centrebacks and goal keeper. That's primarily how Man City supply their forwards, hopefully with a right winger in and Casadei starting we might see some more creativity in the side.

 

This is exactly why I'm so disappointed with our wide right players all cutting inside and running in to traffic. 

 

We've got a left winger that's definitely a clear inside forward. He should be cutting in definitely. But we're then supposed to also have two centre mids attacking the box and a striker in there. 

 

We don't have overlapping full backs so we need the wingers to be giving that width, getting to the byline and cutting the ball back. 

 

To that end I actually don't hate that all of our right side options are right footed. I want to see McAteer and Wanya holding the width, beating their man and getting crosses in not just constantly coming back inside. If its because they don't have confidence and they're seeking support, I'd rather we give JJ a go or just play Castagne til he's sold because at least they'll offer that. 

 

Edited 21 August 2023 by Finnegan

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, Happy Fox said:

we had plenty of chances

 

When? We had an xG of something like 0.5 before Casadei scored the winner. 

 

Iheanacho's chance was one he fashioned entirely himself from the edge of the box. 

 

[Happy Fox]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

When? We had an xG of something like 0.5 before Casadei scored the winner. 

 

Iheanacho's chance was one he fashioned entirely himself from the edge of the box. 

 

We had 6 shots on target?

[AjcW]

I really enjoyed a lot of the football being played on Saturday, but I can see why it wont be to everyones taste.

 

Yes there was a lot of slow patient build up, but surely most can acknowledge that it was significantly more positive in its execution (e.g going forwards and cross field, rather than just side to side)

 

Also clear that passing for passings sake is gone, there's a lot more driving runs and players allowed to touch the ball as much as they want! 

 

I do think unfortunately we will probably need to lose a game before we see the emergence of any back up plan, we've had a very favourable start fixture wise, it'll be interesting to see how we execute this against Norwich and Southampton back to back. 

[Stadt]

Only a few games in but we're 17th for xG, with the players we have it's awfully low. We need to let loose rather than constrict our play so much, we don't have an ideal first XI yet but much worse sides than us (on paper) are managing.

 

https://fbref.com/en/comps/10/Championship-Stats

 

 

Edited 21 August 2023 by Stadt

[Guppys Love Child]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

It is a problem to an extent if our best chances are falling to people who can't take them. 

 

We had this habit in pre season of putting together an absolutely brilliant move only for it to fall to Ndidi. Against Huddersfield, we played some scintillating football only for Dennis Praet to leave a brace out there. 

 

If we're going to keep creating chances for that position and it turns out Casadei is the finisher we hope he is then obviously I'm not going to be upset if our top scorer on the way to promotion is a centre mid and not a striker. 

 

But we aren't creating much and it is a bit of a concern. Some of us raised similar concerns over the last two years and were hand waved off as being too negative. I don't want to piss on anyone's bonfire but we've played two of the worst teams in the league back to back and have made a real chore of it relying on a set piece goal, a late goalmouth scramble and a keeper being nutmegged at his near post. 

 

You can't ride that sort of luck forever. We need to start creating more chances. 

Spot On.

 

However first off we desperately need to raise the tempo of our play. 

 

I've listened to the O.P.A and Enzo

podcast interview and can understand what he's trying to achieve , the being patient, keeping possession to create opportunities etc. and also totally appreciate that we are only 20% down our reinvention journey due to better players being required and for the style to really bed in, and whilst I personally find possession based football a total 'snorefest',( yes we have had pockets of more direct and faster play in matches and I welcome more of this and more often) I also get it that others enjoy possession football and that's fine and they are entitled to their opinion I just request in turn that I'm allowed my opinion on this front to call it out as I see it as 'boring on the eye' and not lambasted for not agreeing with others who like our current brand of football. ( I don't think I'm the only one with similar feelings on this)

 

Hopefully as we reach the 80% mark of the teams evolution to Enzo Idea this allows us to be more expansive in our play whilst still adopting his idea but with less passes and doing so more efficiently as we become more comfortable and confident with the style of play.  

 

So lets see where we end up, and how we are playing at Xmas.

[shen]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

I have to say, I am a bit concerned by how few of our patterns of play actually end up with a chance created for a central striker. Maresca's football is aesthetically far more enjoyable to watch than Rodgers' had been for two years. It's more vertical, direct, dynamic. But we've got a lot of the same problems, still very little actual end product. 

 

I'm trying to think, is Iheanacho against Burton the only goal including pre season that one of the forwards has scored? 

 

I appreciate creativity in the final third is going to be a challenge when you don't have the personnel yet that you want but we're starting to face the distinct possibility now that we won't actually be able to recruit many more of significant caliber up top. So what's the plan for the rest of the year? Scrape out one goal wins relying on the midfield to contribute with late winners? 

 

Yeah yeah, "they need time" of course. But I'd still expect to see us at least attempt to provide more service than we have to the strikers. It's been intensely lacking. 

It's a valid point and I fear it will take time before we get a clear idea of the striker's efficacy in this system.

 

It may simply be that he's there to occupy the space and disrupt defenders mainly, while making short sprints towards the near post etc.

 

For the fun of it, I tried recreating Enzo's tactic in FM and my findings (and concerns) were very much the same, i.e. the wide attackers and two mezzalas/b2b midfielders were the ones getting the chances.

 

I think the striker position is going to be a "late development" tweak to the system. When the team are comfortable playing in this new way, we can add layers by switching it up with e.g. direct balls to the striker.

But if we're just "10-20%" down the road according to Enzo, this could be a while.

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, shen said:

It's a valid point and I fear it will take time before we get a clear idea of the striker's efficacy in this system.

 

It may simply be that he's there to occupy the space and disrupt defenders mainly, while making short sprints towards the near post etc.

 

For the fun of it, I tried recreating Enzo's tactic in FM and my findings (and concerns) were very much the same, i.e. the wide attackers and two mezzalas/b2b midfielders were the ones getting the chances.

 

I think the striker position is going to be a "late development" tweak to the system. When the team are comfortable playing in this new way, we can add layers by switching it up with e.g. direct balls to the striker.

But if we're just "10-20%" down the road according to Enzo, this could be a while.

 

It just brings it all back to my very first concerns. 

 

We have the best squad depth with strikers and conventional full/wing backs. We have the worst squad depth with wingers and attacking midfielders. 

 

So we bring in a manager who's going to play this current system without the fiscal resources to rebuild the squad for him. 

 

It's really, really poor planning. Not Maresca's fault in the slightest and I'd much rather he coach a system he knows than not. Rodgers compromising what he knew to try and compensate for perceived problems with the squad got us here. I like Maresca sticking to his guns. 

 

But it scares the shit out of me. I'll definitely feel a lot, lot more relaxed if Vardy or Nacho pops up with a comfortable brace against Rovrum. 

[bmt]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

It is a problem to an extent if our best chances are falling to people who can't take them. 

 

We had this habit in pre season of putting together an absolutely brilliant move only for it to fall to Ndidi. Against Huddersfield, we played some scintillating football only for Dennis Praet to leave a brace out there. 

 

If we're going to keep creating chances for that position and it turns out Casadei is the finisher we hope he is then obviously I'm not going to be upset if our top scorer on the way to promotion is a centre mid and not a striker. 

 

But we aren't creating much and it is a bit of a concern. Some of us raised similar concerns over the last two years and were hand waved off as being too negative. I don't want to piss on anyone's bonfire but we've played two of the worst teams in the league back to back and have made a real chore of it relying on a set piece goal, a late goalmouth scramble and a keeper being nutmegged at his near post. 

 

You can't ride that sort of luck forever. We need to start creating more chances. 

Good post. I'm hoping we see a bit of a step change over the next 2/3 games as I think it's still very early stages.

 

Casadei should make a big difference as a good finisher arriving into the box which is where we are going to get a lot of chances

[shen]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

It just brings it all back to my very first concerns. 

 

We have the best squad depth with strikers and conventional full/wing backs. We have the worst squad depth with wingers and attacking midfielders. 

 

So we bring in a manager who's going to play this current system without the fiscal resources to rebuild the squad for him. 

 

It's really, really poor planning. Not Maresca's fault in the slightest and I'd much rather he coach a system he knows than not. Rodgers compromising what he knew to try and compensate for perceived problems with the squad got us here. I like Maresca sticking to his guns. 

 

But it scares the shit out of me. I'll definitely feel a lot, lot more relaxed if Vardy or Nacho pops up with a comfortable brace against Rovrum. 

Our club doesn't do poor planning. Oh wait...

[StriderHiryu]

Finnegan is bang on about chance creation. We have to call it like we see it, we aren't creating as many high quality chances as we would like to, the xG stats prove it. We were outperforming our stats in the Premier League too for quite a long time, when it started regressing to the expected... well that's why we are in this division. The warning signs were there.

However, I am quite relaxed about the situation. Some observations and thoughts from me:

• Looks like he's building the team back to front, hence prioritising GK, Defenders, Midfielders.
• So far every new signing has been quite impressive!
• Aiming to make sure we control games first, to keep chances against us low. Clean sheets win titles!
• We still have "loser mentality" festering in our squad. We feel sorry for ourselves after conceding a goal in every game.
• Late goals are a great sign of fitness and a winning mentality.
• Finnegan and others are right to say the squad we currently have doesn't really support the style of play he wants to coach. But he's taken the job as a project where he will get the time and resources (eventually) to do it.
• Pitch positions of our striker show they drop in way deeper and are expected to help build play. So visions of Iheanacho beating Mitrovic's Championship record might have to go on ice.
• This system is likely supposed to spread out goals between the team. Look at Arsenal's stats from last season (https://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/football/arsenal/2022-23/top-scorers.html)
• Definitely missing players with a clinical edge / composure in the final third. KDH's goal return in the PL was poor, same with Praet, same with Mavididi in Ligue 1, etc.
• It took time for Burnley to adapt to their new system before they started smashing the Championship. Took Arteta time at Arsenal too, etc.
• Transfer window still hasn't closed yet!