Tactics Under Maresca

[Bob Hazels shorts]

1 hour ago, foxfanazer said:

I do wish to retract my pre season prediction of Nacho scoring 25 goals this season

Vardy will be very lucky to get the 3 league goals he did last season.

 

Our game is a million miles away from suiting his style or any other 'striker'

 

Its here to stay though, i just wish we'd mix it up a bit and throw in a bit of retro footie in with our current predictable chess game.

 

LCFC of old would hammer our side now

 

 

[Paninistickers]

2 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

I agree with your sentiment in what you say, although I disagree with most of what you say but most of all what I highlighted. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. You do not, always play your best players, you play your best team. There's a huge difference. 

 

How anyone can argue with a 100% record, a team selection that has earned us that and make arguements for changing that is completely beyond me

If there's one surefire way of losing a 100% record it's by not arguing with it. 

 

The current set up is not right. Best to fix whilst the sun is shining. 

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, Jimbo said:

I agree with your sentiment in what you say, although I disagree with most of what you say but most of all what I highlighted. Absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. You do not, always play your best players, you play your best team. There's a huge difference. 

 

How anyone can argue with a 100% record, a team selection that has earned us that and make arguements for changing that is completely beyond me

Could not agree more. It’s about the team, always.  Even putting aside the four wins aside, the team and with Enzo, even the system the team plays, must come first.

[HighPeakFox]

Players win matches.

 

How did that go last season?

[Jimbo]

Just now, Bob Hazels shorts said:

Vardy will be very lucky to get the 3 league goals he did last season.

 

Our game is a million miles away from suiting his style or any other 'striker'

 

Its here to stay though, i just wish we'd mix it up a bit and throw in a bit of retro footie in with our current predictable chess game.

 

LCFC of old would hammer our side now

 

 

But it's not predictable, that's the thing. That's what the whole style is based on. Any 1 of 6 players, sometimes even 7 or 8 players, can spring up when we're in possession. 

 

LCFC if 2015/16 would hammer this side, no other team we had before or after would 

[Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

If there's one surefire way of losing a 100% record it's by not arguing with it. 

 

The current set up is not right. Best to fix whilst the sun is shining. 

But you're saying that we have no plan B or C because we're not making huge changes, changes in game style do not always mean changing the whole system. 

[Dahnsouff]

8 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

If there's one surefire way of losing a 100% record it's by not arguing with it. 

 

The current set up is not right. Best to fix whilst the sun is shining. 

Well it’s 100% right just now. 

 

But you are right, you can never stand still, but I also believe we will, as we will learn, tweak and recruit to improve

[Paninistickers]

2 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

But you're saying that we have no plan B or C because we're not making huge changes, changes in game style do not always mean changing the whole system. 

Ok, but yesterday some basic organisational changes based on in game observations should've been recognised..

 

We didn't need pace on the wings. Neither of the wingers could properly beat their man. They had to cut back almost every time (and in the closing sections of the game, mavidid gave it away almost every time he did so) ....So if the quick wingers ain't working, put on a slower but better/savvier/stronger/taller wide player

 

The centre halves were struggling to track Kels coming deep and turning. He was too strong. He needed a partner - Vardy - in the last quarter to feed

 

Taking off Wilf totally surrended midfield. Winks was the only midfielder then who could anticipate trouble after he went and subsequently, Winks was overloaded and we lost his A game

[Chelmofox]

Going back to the fans getting restless, and there being criticism of us just not getting forward, there was quite a lot frustration around me in the 2nd half. But nowhere near as bad as made out in other posts on here. I don't think we can expect 31k fans to be technical strategists of the game and the majority of people want to watch what looks like good football. I actually enjoyed the first half (up to the Ramsey goal obvs!), felt we should have been a few more goals up and we completely dominated Cardiff.  I would then say about 35 minutes of that 2nd half was horrible to watch (bar a few good moves). Absolutely horrible at times. I am sure Enzo will be delighted we stuck to the system and our goal was the result of wearing them down, but it wasn't particularly pleasant to sit through and it coincided with the ground being relatively quiet. I say this as someone who is buying into the principles, so for people who aren't spending a lot of their time reading football forums, that 2nd half would have been largely disgusting to sit through.

 

However the last 8 minutes or so were brilliant, and Cardiff completely lost the plot. Its clear what the wearing down strategy does to teams, but we only have to play someone a little more clinical before we see a heavy defeat, unless we get more clinical ourselves. 

[Simmo86]

25 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Sometimes I'm amazed at the total faith people on here put invest unknown players. 

 

Iheanacho is absolutely miles and miles above anyone in the division in terms of movement and playing intelligent passes that aren't the easy/obvious option. Yet he's tossed aside for this lad Piroe! 

 

As for your other points

 

I think Ricardo has been subdued by his standards this season. If there's a player who gets robbed in midfield so far, it's been him..

 

Mavididi is wayyyy below the technical level of our existing PL players. He wreaks of Championship level. He's a major weak link. 

 

The other wing position is a waste too. Despite the excellent goal by the young lad yesterday, we sacrificed Wilf to keep him on. The decision was awful. We'd be better off with a slower Casadei (or Albrighton) out there.

 

I read a lot of comments at the start from posters on here  about Enzo having a plan B or C win games ....yet yesterday he stuck absolutely rigidly to plan A. We got away with it. 

 

Play. Your. Best. Players. It's always has been the easiest and most effective way to win. Vestergaard and the wingers need to drop out and JJ, Wilf and Kels+Vards should be accommodated. We'd make life much easier if we do. 

 

 

 

 

Not sure you can call someone who has 1 goal, 1 assist and a major hand in another goal in 3 games a weak link just because he had a quiet game yesterday. He’s a winger, that’s what’s happens.

 

Think your diving far to much into the whole tactical side of things as Enzo said on Friday we’re 10% comfortable with it at the mo and we still haven’t got the perfect personnel.

 

If we’re still having problems with it October/November time, then we should start to worry.

[James_lcfc]

7 hours ago, Collymore said:

We'd be on zero points in the Prem after 3 playing thus far but we're 9 out of three in the Championship. What a gulf in class! 

 

If we ever play Vestegaard and Faes at a higher level we'll have our own pants down and won't have anyone to blame - they're an accident waiting to happen. 

 

I really hope Enzo realises all of this...

 

 

The gulf in class has taken me by surprise so far - Loving it.

 

I think 90% of the current PL beats us comfortably at the moment, which should be obvious. We are in this league for a reason.

 

I’m sure Enzo knows the current CB’s we have are miles off PL level, but they should hopefully be good enough to get us through this season.

[Jimbo]

10 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Ok, but yesterday some basic organisational changes based on in game observations should've been recognised..

 

We didn't need pace on the wings. Neither of the wingers could properly beat their man. They had to cut back almost every time (and in the closing sections of the game, mavidid gave it away almost every time he did so) ....So if the quick wingers ain't working, put on a slower but better/savvier/stronger/taller wide player

 

The centre halves were struggling to track Kels coming deep and turning. He was too strong. He needed a partner - Vardy - in the last quarter to feed

 

Taking off Wilf totally surrended midfield. Winks was the only midfielder then who could anticipate trouble after he went and subsequently, Winks was overloaded and we lost his A game

We won the game, and other than 1 good chance that they had, one half chance and a wonder goal we were fine. 

 

We took Wilf off for a player who is more influential going forward, and it paid off. 

 

If Kel's effort goes in off the post, Mavididi shows a little more composure or 2 or 3 occasions, if KDH's effort sneaks into the bottom corner then absolutely no one at all is questioning the tactics this morning. 

 

All ifs and buts of course, but that fact remains we won, as we have done in the previous 2 league games and we still don't look anywhere near how we could be playing. It's still far too early to make a fair judgement, and as I've said a number of times now, you can physically see passes, turns, runs, movements that aren't quite hitting the mark and hopefully we see that evolve over time.

 

If we're still playing this way in November and still scraping by, the argument can be made that it's not quite working and maybe we should look the change it up before we come unstuck, but as it stands we're dominating teams without looking hugely threatening in the final 3rd, and yet still picking up the points. 

 

Give it time before suggesting we should scrap the whole idea, system and tactics in favour of something else. 

[Chelmofox]

4 minutes ago, Paninistickers said:

Ok, but yesterday some basic organisational changes based on in game observations should've been recognised..

 

We didn't need pace on the wings. Neither of the wingers could properly beat their man. They had to cut back almost every time (and in the closing sections of the game, mavidid gave it away almost every time he did so) ....So if the quick wingers ain't working, put on a slower but better/savvier/stronger/taller wide player

 

The centre halves were struggling to track Kels coming deep and turning. He was too strong. He needed a partner - Vardy - in the last quarter to feed

 

Taking off Wilf totally surrended midfield. Winks was the only midfielder then who could anticipate trouble after he went and subsequently, Winks was overloaded and we lost his A game

You are basically saying you would have played a completely different system. 2 up top etc etc. I get it. You think we have the players just to blow most of this league out of the water and we should just go for it. I'm sure its the approach many Championship managers would have taken. 

 

Right now, i am of the opinion that Enzo is going to play this system no matter what until its instinctively embedded in everyones brain. It doesn't matter if Mavididi wasn't being used effectively, or if Nacho would be better with a partner to run with to create problems - we are going to play the system. He would rather scrap a 2-1 win with the system rather than bash someone 4-0 playing some direct long ball 4-4-2. I think tweaks to the system will come incrementally and it will be a process until the Winter. Wingers hugging the line felt like a tweak this game (hard for me to tell as its the first game ive been to this season). Each tweak might not pay off, and each implementation leads to the vision i think he and his team want to achieve. We know it took Pep about 2 seasons to implement his system effectively, and now everyone who arrives at Man City is just expected slot into it.

 

I think post Winter you will then see a bit of flexibility in his approach. Really interested to see what he does if we meet a top PL team in one of the Cups, because as Liverpool proved preseason some cutting edge quality will expose us. 

 

Basically, unless Enzo blows a hissy fit in the transfer window and walks out, you are going to have to get used to this.

[Paninistickers]

5 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

you are going to have to get used to this.

Yup, I think you are right

 

6 minutes ago, Chelmofox said:

You think we have the players just to blow most of this league out of the water

Tbh I do. I've been shocked at just how poor the players are at this level. And I had low expectations from the off. 

 

We could win promotion, imo, quite easily on talent alone and a much more basic system. But as you suggest, we are taking the less trodden path and there's a huge risk in doing that.

[coolhandfox]

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

I'm concerned. The only principle should be to win. The doggedness to stick with the two lads out wide will cost us.

Will Enzo is doing pretty well on the winning principle front.

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Kels and Vards together would tear teams apart. I'm not advocating all game every game. We got lucky today, sticking with the two wide lads who are both sub par. 

The two wingers have score 2 goals and an assist in 3 league games.

 

Compare to 0 goals and 1 assist for Nacho and Vardy.

 

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Subbing Wilf and surrendering midfield was right out of Rodgers' playbook. 

With a sub who scored the winner....

9 hours ago, Paninistickers said:

Players win games. Not systems. I trust our best players right now more than the 'system'

The main problem with that statement, that what we did that in thr last 18 months in the PL. A lack of structure and organisation cost us dearly, we had better player then at least 8 teams but finished in the bottom 3.

 

Edited 20 August 2023 by coolhandfox

[lcfc sheff]

We haven’t even clicked properly yet but when we do half way into the season it’s gonna be scary. Another day we’d have scored 4 in the first half. But at the end of the day we’ve still won 

[Stadt]

We’re overly structured atm. Maresca has to take the handbrake off in the final third.

 

The wingers are so wide they’re isolated most of the time, if SM was slightly narrower and Doyle pushed up further on occasion it’d cause way more problems.

 

Enzo is still learning but let’s hope he embraces a bit more fluidity in the final third.

Edited 20 August 2023 by Stadt

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, shen said:

Thinking about it, why is an 'inverted' fullback essential in this system?

Couldn't it be a player used to playing in central midfield who is just schooled to defend in a fullback position instead of the opposite? 

I would think that finding a fullback with the qualities in possession requires to play the role is harder to find than a midfielder being asked to defend differently.

Great question and your suggestion makes sense. Hamza is the other player we’ve used for the role so it’s something Maresca himself is happy to do. 
 

Ricardo is likely the best player we have in the squad now Tielemans and Maddison are gone. Not just in terms of technique but in terms of football intelligence. So far if you look at our stats for the season he’s one of our highest rated players so he’s proving he can play the role. 
 

Now another good and related question is if we should be playing this system at all. Ricardo has been great but if he was playing his traditional role it’s hard not to imagine him being as good, if not better. In fact if we had just played 4231 all season it’s likely we would also have won all of our games but with better performances. This is sort of the point @Paninistickers is making and I wouldn’t disagree with it. 
 

However, what Maresca is doing and why I think he’s a brilliant appointment is that he’s preparing us to compete in the Premier League. If we were still in it and tried this system, we’d probably have lost every game. It takes lots of time and practice to get good at it. Right now we are getting away with it, in many games the opposition have had better XG than us, yet we’ve won the game. But if we do get good at it, then we will be better than a lot of teams in the top division. Just look at Brighton who spanked another team yesterday by using very similar principles. 
 

It’s definitely a gamble, but so far it’s working. I think a better time to make judgments is after 20 games. Usually I’d say 10 but given all the new signings and the window not closed yet, we don’t even know who will be in our squad. Plus the Championship is 8 more games. If after 20 we are still dodgy then I think questions about the system become relevant. But I suspect we will be a lot better at playing this way than we are now. But we’ll find out in due course!

[LVFox]

Thought yesterday showed how much of a work in progress we are. That said, I think a new RW and Coady being fit would make a huge difference.

 

My main annoyance at times was that we don't get it into the centre forward quick enough. At times there was a clear pass from Vestegaard to Kelechi on, even if Kelechi only played it back to Vestegaard it would pull their defenders forward and allow more space in behind, but we seemed hesitant to try it.

 

Big hopes for the season though, we are winning whilst not fully going, when we do I think we will absolutely thrive

[Royston.]

**** do i know about tactics....

 

It's luck that we have 3 wins and 9 points.

 

Without luck we don't win any of the last 3 and Enzo would be under pressure already.

 

Hopefully winning these games is boosting confidence and not complacency.

[StanSP]

41 minutes ago, Stadt said:

We’re overly structured atm. Maresca has to take the handbrake off in the final third.

 

The wingers are so wide they’re isolated most of the time, if SM was slightly narrower and Doyle pushed up further on occasion it’d cause way more problems.

 

Enzo is still learning but let’s hope he embraces a bit more fluidity in the final third.

I think it's worth sticking with.

 

The wingers were isolated because Cardiff had a plan to pack the midfield and man-mark the two wingers. This is where our system will come into play and where we have to be clinical and ruthless. The opposition will eventually get tired chasing and pressing, and that's where we have to be on it to capitalise. And a couple of times yesterday we were. It'll become better when Maresca gets a settled squad and the players he wants, and it's a promising start because Casadei is one of those players. 

 

If Mavididi was narrower, it packs the midfield even more and cramps up the space that we'd try and work for Winks and KDH. The fluidity wasn't to do with our downfall I think, it was more to do with how the opposition was set up in a low and compressed block with defensive line and midfield line close together. Had we been a bit sharper (KDH, looking at you), we'd have broken them down before the first goal went in.

[dmayne7]

1 hour ago, Jimbo said:

But you're saying that we have no plan B or C because we're not making huge changes, changes in game style do not always mean changing the whole system. 

Let's be real, that's a pretty valid observation. Whilst you're right in that it doesn't have to be a change of system the fact is, system, approach and personnel are barely changing, if at all so there really is no plan B.

 

Really enjoy Enzo's interviews at times because there's a hint of Pearson in there. But his philosophy is worryingly rigid at the moment and it's excluding some of the best players and forcing him to peak some of the worst players. I hope he quickly realises he needs to be more flexible as it's not sustainable at the moment, and even if we did get promoted, we'd be straight back down.

 

Still, early days and he's a bright guy so should work out well.

[JimmyC74]

I think you will see a bit more fluidity / creativity when he has more of his own players in.  Keep the faith.

 

 

[Fazzer 7]

So if Casadei starts the next game. Who do you think he will he replace ?

[Chelmofox]

41 minutes ago, Royston. said:

**** do i know about tactics....

 

It's luck that we have 3 wins and 9 points.

 

Without luck we don't win any of the last 3 and Enzo would be under pressure already.

 

Hopefully winning these games is boosting confidence and not complacency.

We dominated all 3 league games. Opposition teams will always get chances - thats football. They have to take them as much as we do. I don't think we have been lucky at all, just that we've had a bit more quality when needed. Moving forward we have to be more clinical.

 

Whats interesting to me is how Cardiff completely buckled and lost the plot at the end of the game. Especially as they had spent pretty much all the 2nd half playing their system well. To me its a sign they got frustrated, tired and run out of ideas/steam. Again, this isn't luck - its part of the plan.

Edited 20 August 2023 by Chelmofox