Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[MPH]

In an attempt to not dominate the ‘ also in the news’ thread I thought it best to  start this thread as it appears Israel’s response might go on for some time…

[leicsmac]

I'm going to repeat a couple of things from the AITN thread as they sum it up for me.

 

 

"A man once jumped from the top floor of a burning house in which many members of his family had already perished. He managed to save his life; but as he was falling he hit a person standing down below and broke that person’s legs and arms. The jumping man had no choice; yet to the man with the broken limbs he was the cause of his misfortune. If both behaved rationally, they would not become enemies. The man who escaped from the blazing house, having recovered, would have tried to help and console the other sufferer; and the latter might have realized that he was the victim of circumstances over which neither of them had control. But look what happens when these people behave irrationally. The injured man blames the other for his misery and swears to make him pay for it. The other, afraid of the crippled man’s revenge, insults him, kicks him, and beats him up whenever they meet. The kicked man again swears revenge and is again punched and punished. The bitter enmity, so fortuitous at first, hardens and comes to overshadow the whole existence of both men and to poison their minds."

[ThurmastonFox]

May be over thinking this, but isn’t it in Russia’s interests to get America bogged down in a further conflict. Iran supply drones to Russia, training and equipment to Hamas. It feels like something bigger is at play here

[SecretPro]

Can't wait to hear Sunak, Biden, the EU, The BBC, ITV, Sky express their sadness at the needless murder of thousands upon thousands of Palestinian civilians in a weeks time and talk of standing in Solidarity with the Palestinian Government against the brutal terrorist and war-crime acts of Israelis. 

 

Oh wait, just a weird dream I had.

 

Though obviously, according to the media today, there won't be any civilian Palestinian casualties because they are all Hamas. Totally indistinguishable. And even though in the last few days 600+ Palestinians have been killed (to add to the many many thousands over previous decades) and everybody is fist-bumping and cheering at the idea of starving many thousands more to death whilst committing war crimes by collective punishment, cutting off their means of communication, electricity and clean water supply it won't matter because they are all Muslims, sorry Hamas, sorry brown, sorry erm, yeah terrorists or not actually human or whatever...

Edited 9 October 2023 by SecretPro

[MPH]

2 minutes ago, ThurmastonFox said:

May be over thinking this, but isn’t it in Russia’s interests to get America bogged down in a further conflict. Iran supply drones to Russia, training and equipment to Hamas. It feels like something bigger is at play here

 

 

you’re absolutely right. It’s very much in their interest to do that…

 

 

Also, from the Chinese point of view, it would be a Very good time for them to have military action with Taiwan 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

you’re absolutely right. It’s very much in their interest to do that…

 

 

Also, from the Chinese point of view, it would be a Very good time for them to have military action with Taiwan 

How good do you think they are at nuclear brinksmanship, then? They would have to be very good, for their own sake as well as everyone else, because off-record everyone knows what the US response to that must be.

[MPH]

Just now, leicsmac said:

How good do you think they are at nuclear brinksmanship, then? They would have to be very good, for their own sake as well as everyone else, because off-record everyone knows what the US response to that must be.

 

 

just glad Trump isn’t president…

[foxy boxing]

There is so much history, hypocrisy and double standards from everyone, allsides when it comes to this conflict. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Both sides are guilty of atrocities on civilians. America and other nations slams Hamas as terrorists while conveniently forgetting that America funded the I.r.a for years when they were killing British soldiers in Northern Ireland. Let's not forget before Bin Laden turned on them they were funding him and his organisation when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. Palestinians after 1969 lost their homes and land and Gaza is just the worlds biggest open air prison camp where most live in extreme poverty. There are extremists on both sides that shut down the moderates in their communities spouting hatred of one another and are unwilling to compromise as both sides believe they have a justified and legitimate claim to the land.

[SecretPro]

9 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

There is so much history, hypocrisy and double standards from everyone, allsides when it comes to this conflict. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Both sides are guilty of atrocities on civilians. America and other nations slams Hamas as terrorists while conveniently forgetting that America funded the I.r.a for years when they were killing British soldiers in Northern Ireland. Let's not forget before Bin Laden turned on them they were funding him and his organisation when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. Palestinians after 1969 lost their homes and land and Gaza is just the worlds biggest open air prison camp where most live in extreme poverty. There are extremists on both sides that shut down the moderates in their communities spouting hatred of one another and are unwilling to compromise as both sides believe they have a justified and legitimate claim to the land.

Correct, but the Western world has and only ever will take the side of Israel. 

 

As for Media coverage and public opinion, its driven not by the facts or the history, but by an unconscious bias against Palestinians with an entrenched racial element. Time and again we see brutal actions against Palestinians, or humanitarian crisis in Muslim countries and the general attitude to them is one of shoulder shrugging. Israelis look, act and sound more western and so the public find far more empathy. Same with the public reaction to Ukraine versus, say, Syria.

 

I'll estimate now that by the time this is done, the number of Palestinian civilians killed will be in the thousands if not tens of thousands and the media and western world won't bat an eyelid.

Edited 9 October 2023 by SecretPro

[MPH]

16 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Correct, but the Western world has and only ever will take the side of Israel. 

 

As for Media coverage and public opinion, its driven not by the facts or the history, but by an unconscious bias against Palestinians with an entrenched racial element. Time and again we see brutal actions against Palestinians, or humanitarian crisis in Muslim countries and the general attitude to them is one of shoulder shrugging. Israelis look, act and sound more western and so the public find far more empathy. Same with the public reaction to Ukraine versus, say, Syria.

 

I'll estimate now that by the time this is done, the number of Palestinian civilians killed will be in the thousands if not tens of thousands and the media and western world won't bat an eyelid.

 

you also have to remember how many Jewish people have settled all around Europe.  Literally millions and millionsI. Less so in  traditionally Muslim countries of course. I’d also say there’s a tinge  of sympathy/ responsibility remaining from the holocaust, In short, there’s a natural connection.

 

not as eloquently said as I’d like to explain but I’m tired. It’s been a long day.

Edited 9 October 2023 by MPH

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, foxy boxing said:

There is so much history, hypocrisy and double standards from everyone, allsides when it comes to this conflict. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Both sides are guilty of atrocities on civilians. America and other nations slams Hamas as terrorists while conveniently forgetting that America funded the I.r.a for years when they were killing British soldiers in Northern Ireland. Let's not forget before Bin Laden turned on them they were funding him and his organisation when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. Palestinians after 1969 lost their homes and land and Gaza is just the worlds biggest open air prison camp where most live in extreme poverty. There are extremists on both sides that shut down the moderates in their communities spouting hatred of one another and are unwilling to compromise as both sides believe they have a justified and legitimate claim to the land.

I think you are a little confused here.  There is zero evidence the American state ever funded the IRA, that was the Irish community in America, whereas the CIA directly funded and trained Bin Laded etc to fight Russia.

 

I do think there is a clear distinction between Hamas, who; explicitly state their mission is the destruction of Israel; have deliberately and wantonly targeted Israeli civilians when they could quite easily target only the IDF; rejected endless offers from Israel which would have dramatically improved the lives of their people; deliberately site their operations in civilian areas; and will brook no critical comment on their actions.  Vs Israel which while in no way blameless and equally senseless in its approach to settlement etc; are left little option but to respond.

 

Then I read more about the ongoing conditions in Gaza, and I think how would anyone react to that?  Is it any surprise people turn to Hamas and their evil ideology?  Israel in many ways continues to create the conditions for Hamas to thrive.  If they want to undermine Hamas power base, they have to treat the Palestinian people a whole lot better.  Ah there are so many things going on it gives you a headache.

Edited 10 October 2023 by Jon the Hat

[breadandcheese]

No-one (bar the odd crackpot) is celebrating loss of Palestinian life. 

 

The reason people are failing to identify with Hamas is that they have shown themselves to be exactly what they said they were, Islamist mass murderers. For years it was said that their charter might say they want to murder Jews, but actually they're more pragmatic and it's only words. Well events on Saturday have shone a very horrible light. Hamas planned an operation with incredible meticulousness and precision with it's military aim of killing civilians. The death toll is now over a thousand and still rising, which is unfathomable for killing civilians in cold blooded murder. (Apologies, a Hamas spokesman on Sky News yesterday said they didn't kill any civilians).

 

They broke every Geneva convention we hold dear, going door to door shooting families, raping, beheading, taking hostages back with them. It is what we read about from Medieval times.

 

It is galling to see normal sensible people (not on here, around the world - such as unions, some politicians) expressing about how it's not for us to tell Palestinians how to resist or celebrating a blow to Israel. The comparison is if a general in the UK army had instructed soldiers to go door to door in Iraq or Afghanistan shooting families and taking hostages. We would be sickened to our very core that these were our troops and demanding arrests. 

 

Ultimately Israel and the world has realised that there is no going back to the status quo as before. This cannot be a military operation where Hamas stay in power, just like sensible people couldn't accept a Middle East where Isis governed large areas of land a few years back.  

 

It is very difficult and incredibly sad for innocent Palestinians, especially those who hate Hamas and are unable to do anything about it. But equally, any talk of sitting the sides down and talking peace rather than go to conflict is for the birds whilst Hamas remain in power. And I don't know how you remove Hamas, without a huge loss of life (would love to hear from any ex military who can advise on how it can be done). It is a depressing situation.

[UniFox21]

8 hours ago, ThurmastonFox said:

May be over thinking this, but isn’t it in Russia’s interests to get America bogged down in a further conflict. Iran supply drones to Russia, training and equipment to Hamas. It feels like something bigger is at play here

It's very much a proxy war. The west are supporting, and will end up supporting one side. Whilst the eastern powers will be backing the other. 

 

But I feel this is very much a conflict where so many of us don't know enough. The reports vary so much in accuracy, and are tarnished by whichever bias the site has

Edited 10 October 2023 by UniFox21

[Trav Le Bleu]

8 hours ago, ThurmastonFox said:

May be over thinking this, but isn’t it in Russia’s interests to get America bogged down in a further conflict. Iran supply drones to Russia, training and equipment to Hamas. It feels like something bigger is at play here

I do wonder if Russia might have supplied Hamas with equipment to launch this assault, thereby deflecting the world's attention from their own atrocities. It's the kind of thing that's happened before.

[bmt]

34 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

No-one (bar the odd crackpot) is celebrating loss of Palestinian life. 

 

The reason people are failing to identify with Hamas is that they have shown themselves to be exactly what they said they were, Islamist mass murderers. For years it was said that their charter might say they want to murder Jews, but actually they're more pragmatic and it's only words. Well events on Saturday have shone a very horrible light. Hamas planned an operation with incredible meticulousness and precision with it's military aim of killing civilians. The death toll is now over a thousand and still rising, which is unfathomable for killing civilians in cold blooded murder. (Apologies, a Hamas spokesman on Sky News yesterday said they didn't kill any civilians).

 

They broke every Geneva convention we hold dear, going door to door shooting families, raping, beheading, taking hostages back with them. It is what we read about from Medieval times.

 

It is galling to see normal sensible people (not on here, around the world - such as unions, some politicians) expressing about how it's not for us to tell Palestinians how to resist or celebrating a blow to Israel. The comparison is if a general in the UK army had instructed soldiers to go door to door in Iraq or Afghanistan shooting families and taking hostages. We would be sickened to our very core that these were our troops and demanding arrests. 

 

Ultimately Israel and the world has realised that there is no going back to the status quo as before. This cannot be a military operation where Hamas stay in power, just like sensible people couldn't accept a Middle East where Isis governed large areas of land a few years back.  

 

It is very difficult and incredibly sad for innocent Palestinians, especially those who hate Hamas and are unable to do anything about it. But equally, any talk of sitting the sides down and talking peace rather than go to conflict is for the birds whilst Hamas remain in power. And I don't know how you remove Hamas, without a huge loss of life (would love to hear from any ex military who can advise on how it can be done). It is a depressing situation.

Obviously condemning Hamas but couldn't you level the same claims at Israel both historically and about their current response.

 

I don't get why it's so wrong to both say the actions of Hamas are completely wrong while accepting the pressure cooker approach Israel has taken for many years is the only fertile land in which more people could be taken into the 'islamist mass murderer' ideology. 

 

I don't think 'Israel has realised' anything... For me, this is an escalation which was necessarily going to happen, caused both by Hamas hatred but also by the conditions within which Palestine is forced to exist.

 

[Jon the Hat]

40 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

No-one (bar the odd crackpot) is celebrating loss of Palestinian life. 

 

The reason people are failing to identify with Hamas is that they have shown themselves to be exactly what they said they were, Islamist mass murderers. For years it was said that their charter might say they want to murder Jews, but actually they're more pragmatic and it's only words. Well events on Saturday have shone a very horrible light. Hamas planned an operation with incredible meticulousness and precision with it's military aim of killing civilians. The death toll is now over a thousand and still rising, which is unfathomable for killing civilians in cold blooded murder. (Apologies, a Hamas spokesman on Sky News yesterday said they didn't kill any civilians).

 

They broke every Geneva convention we hold dear, going door to door shooting families, raping, beheading, taking hostages back with them. It is what we read about from Medieval times.

 

It is galling to see normal sensible people (not on here, around the world - such as unions, some politicians) expressing about how it's not for us to tell Palestinians how to resist or celebrating a blow to Israel. The comparison is if a general in the UK army had instructed soldiers to go door to door in Iraq or Afghanistan shooting families and taking hostages. We would be sickened to our very core that these were our troops and demanding arrests. 

 

Ultimately Israel and the world has realised that there is no going back to the status quo as before. This cannot be a military operation where Hamas stay in power, just like sensible people couldn't accept a Middle East where Isis governed large areas of land a few years back.  

 

It is very difficult and incredibly sad for innocent Palestinians, especially those who hate Hamas and are unable to do anything about it. But equally, any talk of sitting the sides down and talking peace rather than go to conflict is for the birds whilst Hamas remain in power. And I don't know how you remove Hamas, without a huge loss of life (would love to hear from any ex military who can advise on how it can be done). It is a depressing situation.

Except the west hating hard left nutjobs who do love to come out and blame Israel for everything that happens to them, even apparently kids being murdered at a music festival.

[st albans fox]

8 hours ago, MPH said:

 

you also have to remember how many Jewish people have settled all around Europe.  Literally millions and millionsI. Less so in  traditionally Muslim countries of course. I’d also say there’s a tinge  of sympathy/ responsibility remaining from the holocaust, In short, there’s a natural connection.

 

not as eloquently said as I’d like to explain but I’m tired. It’s been a long day.

Not right re numbers 
 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/

 

• No. of Jews per 1,000 in the population of Europe: 1.58. (Around. 1.4m) 

Globally there are approx 16m Jews. (38% of those in the USA and 45% in Israel).  over time, it seems likely that the Jewish population outside of Israel and n America will become almost insignificant.  However, climate change will no doubt force some relocation of population away from the eastern med unless we solve the energy crisis with commercially achievable fusion.

Edited 10 October 2023 by st albans fox

[Daggers]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think you are a little confused here.  There is zero evidence the American state ever funded the IRA, that was the Irish community in America, whereas the CIA

Let me just stop you there https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/declassified-files-link-cia-to-ira-gun-running/35379252.html

 

The American state funded and facilitated the IRA’s campaign of attrition.

[Foxdiamond]

8 hours ago, SecretPro said:

Correct, but the Western world has and only ever will take the side of Israel. 

 

As for Media coverage and public opinion, its driven not by the facts or the history, but by an unconscious bias against Palestinians with an entrenched racial element. Time and again we see brutal actions against Palestinians, or humanitarian crisis in Muslim countries and the general attitude to them is one of shoulder shrugging. Israelis look, act and sound more western and so the public find far more empathy. Same with the public reaction to Ukraine versus, say, Syria.

 

I'll estimate now that by the time this is done, the number of Palestinian civilians killed will be in the thousands if not tens of thousands and the media and western world won't bat an eyelid.

One of the issues is that the western world has seen the actions of Palestinian factions using terror within Western countries and or against it's own citizens and thereby turning opinion against them. Think back to the plane hijackings in 1970 or the attack at the Munich Olympics in 72.  

[breadandcheese]

52 minutes ago, bmt said:

Obviously condemning Hamas but couldn't you level the same claims at Israel both historically and about their current response.

 

I don't get why it's so wrong to both say the actions of Hamas are completely wrong while accepting the pressure cooker approach Israel has taken for many years is the only fertile land in which more people could be taken into the 'islamist mass murderer' ideology. 

 

I don't think 'Israel has realised' anything... For me, this is an escalation which was necessarily going to happen, caused both by Hamas hatred but also by the conditions within which Palestine is forced to exist.

 

I understand what you're saying and I think if Hamas had made an assault on an Israeli army base and stopped at that, you could say this as it would be a military operation in the context of a war that has been going on for decades.

 

But this wasn't that. This was an operation to murder. It goes beyond anything any of us should consider acceptable. And even with the nuance of the pressure cooker of Gaza, it doesn't take away from their agency in the situation with regards their decisions.

 

The realised point I made is more the world realizing that Hamas cannot be part of any conversation on the future and in Israel's case, the status quo of the last decade (Hamas running the Gaza Strip in a quiet stalemate)

Edited 10 October 2023 by breadandcheese

[st albans fox]

Apparently around 1500 Hamas terrorists have been killed in Israel and around the border area.  That’s just astonishing. What an enormous failure of the basic role of govt which is to protect its people. 

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, breadandcheese said:

No-one (bar the odd crackpot) is celebrating loss of Palestinian life. 

 

The reason people are failing to identify with Hamas is that they have shown themselves to be exactly what they said they were, Islamist mass murderers. For years it was said that their charter might say they want to murder Jews, but actually they're more pragmatic and it's only words. Well events on Saturday have shone a very horrible light. Hamas planned an operation with incredible meticulousness and precision with it's military aim of killing civilians. The death toll is now over a thousand and still rising, which is unfathomable for killing civilians in cold blooded murder. (Apologies, a Hamas spokesman on Sky News yesterday said they didn't kill any civilians).

 

They broke every Geneva convention we hold dear, going door to door shooting families, raping, beheading, taking hostages back with them. It is what we read about from Medieval times.

 

It is galling to see normal sensible people (not on here, around the world - such as unions, some politicians) expressing about how it's not for us to tell Palestinians how to resist or celebrating a blow to Israel. The comparison is if a general in the UK army had instructed soldiers to go door to door in Iraq or Afghanistan shooting families and taking hostages. We would be sickened to our very core that these were our troops and demanding arrests. 

 

Ultimately Israel and the world has realised that there is no going back to the status quo as before. This cannot be a military operation where Hamas stay in power, just like sensible people couldn't accept a Middle East where Isis governed large areas of land a few years back.  

 

It is very difficult and incredibly sad for innocent Palestinians, especially those who hate Hamas and are unable to do anything about it. But equally, any talk of sitting the sides down and talking peace rather than go to conflict is for the birds whilst Hamas remain in power. And I don't know how you remove Hamas, without a huge loss of life (would love to hear from any ex military who can advise on how it can be done). It is a depressing situation.

 

But it's been extremely easy for Hamas to get this point of being the dominant force in Gaza (OK, partly because of Iranian support) because of reactions like Israel's now. 

 

It's the same thing every time, othering Palestinians, literally calling them animals, committing war crimes on mass against civilian population centres, bombing the shit out of them and then cutting off their food and utilities when they try to recover as if Gaza is one large military base and everyone in it is a Hamas soldier. 

 

What a fvcking surprise when the victims of this get radicalised. 

 

Nobody (bar the odd crack pot) is celebrating loss of Israeli life but it is galling to see normal, sensible people (not on here of course) defend Israel's response by buying in to the narrative that Palestinian = Hamas and completely overlooking that @SecretPro is almost certainly right, if the Palestinian death toll isn't already much higher than the Israeli one then it imminently will be.

 

They're not "animals" thanks Mr Netanyahu, they're human beings and they're overwhelmingly innocent victims. 

 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But it's been extremely easy for Hamas to get this point of being the dominant force in Gaza (OK, partly because of Iranian support) because of reactions like Israel's now. 

 

It's the same thing every time, othering Palestinians, literally calling them animals, committing war crimes on mass against civilian population centres, bombing the shit out of them and then cutting off their food and utilities when they try to recover as if Gaza is one large military base and everyone in it is a Hamas soldier. 

 

What a fvcking surprise when the victims of this get radicalised. 

 

Nobody (bar the odd crack pot) is celebrating loss of Israeli life but it is galling to see normal, sensible people (not on here of course) defend Israel's response by buying in to the narrative that Palestinian = Hamas and completely overlooking that @SecretPro is almost certainly right, if the Palestinian death toll isn't already much higher than the Israeli one then it imminently will be.

 

They're not "animals" thanks Mr Netanyahu, they're human beings and they're overwhelmingly innocent victims. 

 

And, if I may be frank, a state with a very strong Jewish history and its representatives really should know where such "othering" ends and so perhaps think twice about using it on others.

[One Arm Babba]

https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1711103806002377167?s=20

[mozartfox]

10 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 

you’re absolutely right. It’s very much in their interest to do that…

 

 

Also, from the Chinese point of view, it would be a Very good time for them to have military action with Taiwan 

The abject failure of the Russian War Machine may make China think twice at risking the same fate with their alleged military might.  Best keep the myth in tact.  It took China a decade to build a copy AIRBUS A320 - and this is full of western technology.  I have a Chinese Girlfriend and trust me not everything is what is seems.