Cooper - OUT

[FrankieADZ]

Cooper in people, 

if we lose our next 3 games, would you still want him as manager?

[Chrysalis]

2 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

I disagree with the Maresca comment - I feel he'd probably be doing slightly better, not amazing, but he probably wins the Palace game, maybe the Everton game. 

 

The results aren't particularly the problem at the minute - they're ok, they're not terrible. The main issues are the things everyone can see - the bad game management, bad subs, the lack of any discernible game plan or tactics outside of ultra defensive setups. 

 

The numbers point to a side that is creating very little and conceding a lot of possession, shots and chances, but is currently being carried through by individual quality - but that can't and won't last forever.

 

To me that suggests that what's happening at the minute is happening in spite of the manager rather than because of him, and that's a worrying place to be. 

Look at saints, conceding goals from trying to play out too much and one point.  Burnley last season another example.

 

I think we need to be less defensive, but no doubt Cooper is doing alright with the tools he has, and the circumstances of which he joined.

 

On the other hand what happened last season was in spite of Enzo.  Our best performances were games he disowned.

Edited 5 October 2024 by Chrysalis

[Jakemoore]

Say what you want about Cooper but watching Wolves, Southampton and Ipswich give away such easy goals today makes me feel a whole lot better.

 

I do honestly think there are at least 3 worse teams than us. At least those 3 I’ve said and maybe more. 

[shailen]

48 minutes ago, Sunbury Fox said:

You can agree that the results have been about par but the performances have been honking in the main. Eventually our luck will run out, playing this way; it's simply not sustainable.

 

As for Maresca, he would have adapted our tactics in the PL, like he did in smashing Southampton twice last season. So, I don't agree we'd have fewer points under him. 

 

 

I don't disagree that it needs to be better but we simply don't have the quality to be playing open expansive football, quite simply. 

 

You can call it safe, pragmatic, etc., but we have been hard to beat and scored in every game. Have we been lucky to some extent? Yes. But we have shown enough so far to suggest we can compete which is all we can ask for this season. 

[indierich06]

Just now, Chrysalis said:

Look at saints, conceding goals from trying to play out too much and one point.  Burnley last season another example.

 

I think we need to be less defensive, but no doubt Cooper is doing alright with the tools he has, and the circumstances of which he joined.

 

On the other hand what happened last season was in spite of Enzo.  Our best performances were games he disowned.

I do take your point, we could be going out attacking and then getting battered every week and I suppose we'd all be calling Cooper naive for not being pragmatic.

 

But at the same time, I don't think we're playing a particularly well-drilled, organised style of defensive football - there's no clear counter attacking style, we don't really have a clear way of playing in my mind. It doesn't feel like there's much organisation there - do we play out from the back? Do we soak up pressure and counter? What do we actually do?

 

Maybe it's just more clear after Maresca - who, love it or hate it, had a way of playing that was clear and defined. We just seem... aimless to me. 

[Chrysalis]

3 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

I do take your point, we could be going out attacking and then getting battered every week and I suppose we'd all be calling Cooper naive for not being pragmatic.

 

But at the same time, I don't think we're playing a particularly well-drilled, organised style of defensive football - there's no clear counter attacking style, we don't really have a clear way of playing in my mind. It doesn't feel like there's much organisation there - do we play out from the back? Do we soak up pressure and counter? What do we actually do?

 

Maybe it's just more clear after Maresca - who, love it or hate it, had a way of playing that was clear and defined. We just seem... aimless to me. 

Pragmatic means you not locked into one style of play, an identity as some call it, I interpret as stubbornness locked into one style.

 

We had an identity under Rodgers, it was pass between the defenders for most of the game.

 

I think Cooper isnt entirely happy himself, but as long as he adapts from game to game, and we keep grinding out these points, I think he is doing alright.  I think he is giving players freedom which has led to people say things like "down to individual brilliance", yes that happens when a manager lets players dribble forward.

Edited 5 October 2024 by Chrysalis

[The_Rorab]

I really need to stay out of this thread and ones like it, because I start getting worked up and frustrated by every second post.

 

I don't understand how anyone can be content with our football and with Cooper currently, I'm never gonna bollock someone for disagreeing but I don't think I will be able to bridge any kind of understanding about it - it seems insane to me for anyone to think that Cooper is going to lead us anywhere other than downwards long-term based on his tenure so far other than relying on just hope.

 

He's been here for over 3 months now, in training every day, can anyone please tell me what he's done in those 3 months in terms of a tactical plan or trained passages of play on the field or where there's any examples of play that seems like there's been any training or planning put into it?

 

I'm desperate for signs of coaching. Signs that he has any bleeding clue what he's doing. Signs that he actually has some sort of plan, some form of competent game management, some form of tactical understanding. I'm genuinely not trying to be facetious, what is his actual plan for getting the ball in the opposition goal?

 

The problem with relying purely on the table and results is it takes me right back to Rodgers' 2nd last season where we came 8th. We were so clearly nosediving that season, but even though performances were getting worse and worse we were overperforming basically every statistical metric, and we all know what happened the next season where suddenly we weren't. It had been coming for ages.

 

I wish I had the same level of assuredness and confidence that other people seem to, but it's just incomprehensible to me, and will be until I see any evidence on the pitch that we actually look like a team that know what the everliving hell they're doing for a full game.

 

I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point. I bloody wish I could just enjoy the fact we won a game, but unfortunately it just feels like a temporary reprieve more than anything to me.

[murphy]

23 minutes ago, shailen said:

I don't disagree that it needs to be better but we simply don't have the quality to be playing open expansive football, quite simply. 

 

You can call it safe, pragmatic, etc., but we have been hard to beat and scored in every game. Have we been lucky to some extent? Yes. But we have shown enough so far to suggest we can compete which is all we can ask for this season. 

That may be true, but that is not the issue.  The issue is that we camp in our own half, invite teams onto us and show no attacking threat or even counter-attacking threat.

 

Honestly, I have never known anyone play quite as timidly as Steve Cooper's Leicester City. 

[The_77]

Ricardo and Fatawu or we riot. 

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

What I find most staggering about him is his claim that he watched all of our games last season and wasn't going to try and change too much and knew what our strengths and weaknesses were.

 

Today he didn't start 4 of our most influential 5 players last season; Ricardo, Vestergaard, Winks & Fatawu (the other being KDH,) and completely ripped up everything he said he was going to do when he took the job.

 

He got the result he needed today to keep him in employment, but just don't have a great amount of faith in him to navigate these next run of games where we probably need to pick up about 25% of our points from. Again in parts the players have shown they are good enough to go toe to toe with teams established at this level, first half today, 2nd half v Spurs, 1st half at Palace, last half hour against Everton and Villa, but are either not good enough to put a whole 90 minute performance in or are hamstrung by the way they are set up tactically, and managed during the game.

 

We're not Luton made up of Championship journeymen, pretty much every player who has featured for us has Premier League or top European experience. I don't think it's unrealistic given the lack of points deduction that we should be able to survive this season given how poor the bottom half of the Premier League actually is. 

[Chrysalis]

42 minutes ago, The_Rorab said:

I really need to stay out of this thread and ones like it, because I start getting worked up and frustrated by every second post.

 

I don't understand how anyone can be content with our football and with Cooper currently, I'm never gonna bollock someone for disagreeing but I don't think I will be able to bridge any kind of understanding about it - it seems insane to me for anyone to think that Cooper is going to lead us anywhere other than downwards long-term based on his tenure so far other than relying on just hope.

 

He's been here for over 3 months now, in training every day, can anyone please tell me what he's done in those 3 months in terms of a tactical plan or trained passages of play on the field or where there's any examples of play that seems like there's been any training or planning put into it?

 

I'm desperate for signs of coaching. Signs that he has any bleeding clue what he's doing. Signs that he actually has some sort of plan, some form of competent game management, some form of tactical understanding. I'm genuinely not trying to be facetious, what is his actual plan for getting the ball in the opposition goal?

 

The problem with relying purely on the table and results is it takes me right back to Rodgers' 2nd last season where we came 8th. We were so clearly nosediving that season, but even though performances were getting worse and worse we were overperforming basically every statistical metric, and we all know what happened the next season where suddenly we weren't. It had been coming for ages.

 

I wish I had the same level of assuredness and confidence that other people seem to, but it's just incomprehensible to me, and will be until I see any evidence on the pitch that we actually look like a team that know what the everliving hell they're doing for a full game.

 

I dunno, I'm just rambling at this point. I bloody wish I could just enjoy the fact we won a game, but unfortunately it just feels like a temporary reprieve more than anything to me.

Cant be compared to Rodgers, this is the start of Cooper's reign and the previous season under a different manager was in a much weaker league.

 

The last time we were in the EPL, after 7 games we had 1 point with a -9 goal difference, a team where we still had barnes and maddison.  So thats not progress then?

 

It really does read like you want to see some fancy long passing build up play which makes you think its more tactical or something.  Ironically saints fans are begging for a pragmatic manager right now, careful what you wish for.

Edited 5 October 2024 by Chrysalis

[HesNotGudjonsonn2]

If we want to play a low defensive block then we have to play fast attackers for the counter.

 

The alternative is play the high press.

 

Simple!

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

12 minutes ago, HesNotGudjonsonn2 said:

If we want to play a low defensive block then we have to play fast attackers for the counter.

 

The alternative is play the high press.

 

Simple!

I don't even have a problem with playing a low defensive block and being hard to beat and trying to win games in that manner. But we're not even that because in every game so far this season we have had oppositions being wasteful or our goalkeeper to thank for keeping us in games. Every team that has played us has had an xG of 2 or close to it.

 

Bournemouth missed atleast 3 absolute sitters today just from memory not withstanding having 1 scrubbed for offside in the 2nd half alone.

 

We're in a no man's land of neither being organised enough to play a defensive low block, or adventurous enough to take the game to teams and score. 1st half today was the first time I recognised any pattern of play to our game, we looked like we were playing a system, then the 2nd half as soon as they made changes it took Cooper 20 minutes to react.

[Tom12345]

5 hours ago, markko said:

Ricky P. I don't get it. He is a good player and yet has not had a minute in the league. He has been captain in cup (I think). 

I am starting to see the reason.

 

VK hardly tries to do one twos and short passing. If in doubt, VK just hoofs the ball up pitch so that we can lose the ball and be ready to defend again. This suits Cooper’s style very much.

 

Ricardo on the other hand will try to pass our way up and do good passing combos. Not Cooper.

[sylofox]

3 hours ago, Larry_LCFC said:

As much as I wasn't a fan of Enzo's style, you could still take some comfort in the fact he did atleast have a style, a vision, a project. 

Cooper has all of that. It's called

 

Running Scared

[Tom12345]

5 hours ago, Product of 84 said:

I think Cooper is terrified of making substitutions. He doesn't think he has the players on the bench to play his way. 

 

I don't like his way. But I concede his way keeps us in games and the score tight. 

 

What I really dislike is we have 3 players in our back 4 who can't play the ball through the lines. This keeps us penned in. 

 

It's going to be interesting as to whether Vesteguard gets his place back. Okoli and Kristenson have several good attributes but playing the ball into midfield is where they are poor. 

 

Ricky P could/would help but for the fact he and Winks will want to play like last season. Which is why we won't be seeing much of either going forward. 

 

Again I don't like it but it isn't going to change as long as Cooper keeps us getting about a point a game and keeps the goal difference down. Currently, he isn't going anywhere. Sadly.

I agree with you regarding Kristiansen being poor in terms of playing through the lines. I don’t like his selection for that reason either. I rather Ricardo playing RB and Justin playing LB for that reason alone.

 

I think Okoli is ok though. It is early days still.

 

Our biggest problem though is when we have Ndidi in that DM role as he doesn’t give enough of an outlet to our defenders in term of playing through the lines. I see that Skipp was trying very hard to position himself to present an option for the pass, and often he helps to create a triangle with the winger to try to stretch the opposition. However, his midfield partner Ndidi rarely does it (he did it more yesterday though) and even if he does once he gets the pass he often sends it backwards putting our defenders under pressure again or he just lose it altogether. This handicap way of setting up has costed our team a lot in the past and the reason why Ndidi is only suited as an AM. This point has been well analysed before. Of course, we have better attacking players too for that AM position. So it is a choice we just have to make but for the sake of the whole team Ndidi should not play DM for us, ever. You will then see our defenders play through the lines better if he doesn’t play that role. 

Edited 6 October 2024 by Tom12345

[Tom12345]

5 hours ago, murphy said:

We may have just been promoted but we are a club that has only spent one season out of the last ten outside of the top flight and when we have been 'allowed' to take the handbrake off we have looked competitive.  We were promoted with a squad that was considered by many to be the best that had played in The Championship and for every Burnley there are several clubs that go up and stay up.

 

Having said that, you might be right.  We might be a bottom 3-5 club, but I suspect that we might be better than that, but how will we ever know unless Cooper lets them play instead of retreating and handing over the initiative to every team he comes up against?

 

At the end of the day, bus-parking. anti-football, whatever you want to call it, is just something I can't get behind.  I'd rather go down fighting.

Some here have forgotten that we got relegated with the most expensive squad that ever got relegated and we managed to retain what was still a decent PL quality squad to play one season in the Championship.

 

We have actually improved the squad in my opinion this season on balance.

 

Yet, those who have forgotten keeps on talking about our team/squad as if we were a team like WBA coming up with a squad that is worth 1/5 or less.

 

We were playing in the top half of the PL not so long ago with many of these players.  Yes, we lost the likes of Tielemans, Maddison, Barnes and now KDH (who are all playing with top top clubs now) but it goes to show what a great backward step our club went through if we still have a decent squad now. To me, it is all mentality. It started with Rodgers’ loser / choking mentality which I recall quite a few fans also accepted for years and thought it was ok, until we were finally (unbelievably with the team we had) relegated with the most expensive squad in history. It is a bit different in terms of the circumstances but the issues with mentality and team tactics are the same. But some reason, we still struggle with mentality issues and we still play Ndidi in DCM role. I can’t believe after all these years through Rodgers to now we still have not learnt. 

 

But I am not a Cooper out just yet. I hate to give managers no time, but I am running out of patience …

Edited 6 October 2024 by Tom12345

[pmcla26]

2 hours ago, Jakemoore said:

Say what you want about Cooper but watching Wolves, Southampton and Ipswich give away such easy goals today makes me feel a whole lot better.

 

I do honestly think there are at least 3 worse teams than us. At least those 3 I’ve said and maybe more. 

Is that on Cooper or the quality of our players, though? 
 

He’s said multiple times in press conferences about us becoming a premier league team when we’ve got loads of players with plenty of premier league experience, then signed Ayew and Reid who don’t improve our squad to try add to that. 
 

I just can’t get on board with his mentality, if we win games then I’m happy, but I’d expect our squad to be capable of staying up.

[The_Rorab]

2 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

Cant be compared to Rodgers, this is the start of Cooper's reign and the previous season under a different manager was in a much weaker league.

 

The last time we were in the EPL, after 7 games we had 1 point with a -9 goal difference, a team where we still had barnes and maddison.  So thats not progress then?

 

It really does read like you want to see some fancy long passing build up play which makes you think its more tactical or something.  Ironically saints fans are begging for a pragmatic manager right now, careful what you wish for.

I'm not quite sure why you've fixated on the bit about Rodgers' reign of terror? I was using it as an analogy really, that it was a period where we finished 8th but by both the eye test and the stats we were nowhere near as good as the table would suggest - it was nothing about harking to his playstyle, or an attempt to compare the squads or records. Just that whilst I appreciate we currently aren't in the bottom 3, we're playing like and have the stats of a team who should be.

 

To your point about the last time we were in the Prem, I don't think that's particularly relevant? If you're ranking success as just being better than that rock bottom start to the league, then that's your prerogative I guess. Our start has been better than that horrific show, but that's not exactly a high bar.

 

And no, I wish I was wanting to see some fancy long passing build up play, because at least then I would be confident Cooper had a plan and had attempted to drill any sort of tactics into the team. I like a fancy passing style when it's done well, but I also really liked when we had a fast countering transitional playstyle. It's not about the playstyle, it's about the execution of a playstyle. I just don't know what Cooper wants us to do, because it just looks like he throws players onto the pitch without much of a plan. I'm sure that's not true, but there's times they look bereft of any idea what to do. I'm perfectly happy to have a pragmatic manager in charge as long as that pragmatism actually has some kind of planning and execution.

 

I'll ask you, what tactically is Cooper trying to do in your opinion, and why in basically all of our games are we having long stints where we just cede all forward momentum to the opposition and invite pressure that's yielded a frankly horrific statline of shots against and xG stats? What do you see that's pragmatic about Cooper's approach - despite seeming to set us up and gritty and defensive, I wouldn't exactly call us defensively stable so far. Where do you think Cooper's methods excel for us, and what makes you confident we won't just regress to the mean that our stats and performances display going forward?

[jim5000]

4 hours ago, shailen said:

I don't disagree that it needs to be better but we simply don't have the quality to be playing open expansive football, quite simply. 

 

You can call it safe, pragmatic, etc., but we have been hard to beat and scored in every game. Have we been lucky to some extent? Yes. But we have shown enough so far to suggest we can compete which is all we can ask for this season. 

Hard to beat? We’ve conceded over 130 shots against us in 7 fixtures and have the highest xG against in the league.

[Aus Fox]

1 hour ago, jim5000 said:

Hard to beat? We’ve conceded over 130 shots against us in 7 fixtures and have the highest xG against in the league.

XG is the most overrated stat in football and is completely meaningless, unless used over a long period of time. 
Once everyone has player everyone, it might be worth looking at but right now it’s completely irrelevant.

The fact we’ve only lost one game by more than one goal, and that was conceding twice in injury time does suggest we’ve been hard to beat, we haven’t given anyone an easy game, compare that to wolves, Southampton and Ipswich who have been the three worst sides so far this season - and out only aim is to be better than at least three teams come the end of May. 

 

[Aus Fox]

5 hours ago, FrankieADZ said:

Cooper in people, 

if we lose our next 3 games, would you still want him as manager?

Of course they will change their views, as should everyone - the more evidence that becomes available, the more people should change their views.

The flip side could also be asked, how would opinions change if we win all three games? 15 points from 10 games is a very healthy total?

6 from 10 is not good enough. 
Don’t think of this though as Cooper in Vs Cooper our people, it’s really not that simple.

Some choose to look at the negatives in everything and to change that around we need to change everything, some chose to see the positive in everything and see things as not too bad a start at all. 
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle and the jury is still out. 

[Quorndon_Fox]

Summary of where we are at.

 

we had a strong side for the champ which would have been relegation scrappers if we retained everyone including Enzo.

 

our transfer business in the summer has been appalling. Apart from Koli who’s looking like he could do bits with the right coaching the rest is shocking.

 

Ayew, BDR and Edouard are championship players at best now. Fatawu and Mavididi just need consistent game time to adapt. Mads, Faes, Okoli and JJ look solid with Skipp in front of them and I thought Ndidi had one of his better games in the last three years yesterday.

 

I don’t think it’s all at Coopers door, if he stopped putting faith in the palace and Fulham journeymen to get us goals I think we could be safe in 10th-12th with a month to spare.
 

if that’s the case we’d all be happy.

 

I don’t think he’s the long term solution but what manager does last two years these days anyway, it’s too early in the season to go after anyone else. 

[Pliskin]

6 hours ago, Chrysalis said:

Cant be compared to Rodgers, this is the start of Cooper's reign and the previous season under a different manager was in a much weaker league.

 

The last time we were in the EPL, after 7 games we had 1 point with a -9 goal difference, a team where we still had barnes and maddison.  So thats not progress then?

 

It really does read like you want to see some fancy long passing build up play which makes you think its more tactical or something.  Ironically saints fans are begging for a pragmatic manager right now, careful what you wish for.

I think some people are missing the point though. 
 

Forget Southampton or Burnley I’m not bothered about them. There’s pragmatism and then there’s this…. You cannot let the fact we’ve won the game mask the fact it was a horrible performance. And it was a very lucky victory….. this bizarre idea that this team is crap is completely wide of the mark. This team is man for man better than Southampton, it’s also better than Burnley, Sheffield United and Luton of last season. This team currently has arguably a bulk of its better players not getting on the pitch. 
 

The fact is, Cooper has dragged us down to a level where we’re all sat here saying “well I think there’s three worse teams than us”, and what happens when Southampton beat us at their place? That theory goes then……

 

If Cooper was going on holiday to France, and had two options, fly or get a ferry, but the ferry has to go around the world first, because it is safer, he would take that option. 
 

His luck will run out quickly if we carry on setting up and playing like that…. There’s a reason he’s only won a handful of games, he’s a rubbish coach, there’s no plan to what he is doing, no obvious signs of a style, it’s literally hang on best we can for 90 minutes and hope Mavididi or Buonanotte do something. 

[ozleicester]

8 hours ago, FrankieADZ said:

Cooper in people, 

if we lose our next 3 games, would you still want him as manager?

Cooper out people.

If we win our next 5 games would you still want him out?