Cifuentes OUT

[Foxin_Mad]

Thing is its a waste of time keeping this clown. He has a ceiling and this is it. Unless a midtable championship club is where we aspire to be, there is no point keeping him. We might as well bring someone up and coming in who offers something even if its not immediate and begin to build a structure and ethos for the future. This guy doesn't offer one worthwhile thing. 

Edited 20 January by Foxin_Mad

[VG Fox]

18 hours ago, Sankey93 said:

Lose tomorrow night and surely he’s done.

we keep saying one more loss and he will be gone, but despite numerous more losses he's still fff'ing here,  because Top is not interested in sacking him as it will cost...all the signs to me point to a financial catastrophe at the club

[kingfox]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Too much of it isn't about the personnel available to him, it's about his general style. The work rate and pressing stats, the lack of high turnovers, the overall low xG, there's no excuse for it when you've got Mavididi, Fatawu, Daka, Reid and James available to you as attackers. 

 

Enzo would have those personnel closing down all over the park and creating a solid amount of chances. Not because he's a tactical genius and I just love him so much I'm biased but simply just because his approach would suit those players. 

 

For whatever faults Mavididi and Daka have, they'll press when they're told to and they're quick, Fatawu is a hard working kid despite the flair JJ will run himself in to the ground and BDCR isn't anywhere near the donkey Ayew is. 

 

We don't have to be playing this way, we're playing this way because it's what Cifuentes believes in. He's used a passive mid block through the vast majority of his career. 

 

I’ve said it all season, but I still think it boils down to a mixture of personnel and style of play. From a personnel perspective, there’s obvious glaring holes that need rectifying in this team, and as crazy as it may sound, it’s why I find it difficult to fully judge Marti Cifuentes. There’s a massive question mark hanging over him and this team, would a proper goalscoring number 9 make this Marti Cifuentes team look much much better? I’m actually curious to see if he could potentially make it work, if the struggles still continue then surely it’s goodbye for him.

 

Of course in Maresca’s season, we had the greatest of all time manage 18 league goals for us. Of course we don’t have that luxury anymore, it’s thankful that Jordan James is seemingly filling the void that KDH left behind. If you want to get promoted however; you need that little bit more. That’s where Cifuentes needs to be getting more out of Mavididi and Fatawu, ideally those two need to be hitting double figures this season, unfortunately Mavididi is of course nowhere near that right now. 
 

As for the certain stats out of possession, I have no idea what QPR’s running stats looked under Cifuentes, but in terms of PPDA for example, at one point last season they ranked 23rd in the Championship. His teams don’t press aggressively which is a massive shame, because we showed we could do it in that Fiorentina friendly game, since then for whatever reason, those tactics have been ditched. 
 

I’ve said it numerous times before as well, I still believe our build up play is often too slow. You look at Opta’s stats in terms of build ups, 10+ passes, sequence time, direct speed, and some of the teams that sit around us in those statistics. For direct speed, we are the joint 5th slowest team in the league alongside Norwich. West Brom, Middlesbrough, Swansea, Southampton and Sheff Wed are slower than us. Majority of those teams have all experienced problems this season, only team not to of course have been Middlesbrough, but a big reason why they’re doing so well, is by having one of the best defences in the Championship. 
 

The amount of problems we have, you didn’t even mention our woes defensively  which are even worse than our attacking woes. It’s infuriating how Marti Cifuentes sets us up from a defensive perspective, yet week in, week out, he changes fvck all. 
 

I think I’ll stop there Finners, before this turns into a full blown rant.

[Finnegan]

13 minutes ago, kingfox said:

I’ve said it all season, but I still think it boils down to a mixture of personnel and style of play. From a personnel perspective, there’s obvious glaring holes that need rectifying in this team, and as crazy as it may sound, it’s why I find it difficult to fully judge Marti Cifuentes. There’s a massive question mark hanging over him and this team, would a proper goalscoring number 9 make this Marti Cifuentes team look much much better? I’m actually curious to see if he could potentially make it work, if the struggles still continue then surely it’s goodbye for him.

 

Of course in Maresca’s season, we had the greatest of all time manage 18 league goals for us. Of course we don’t have that luxury anymore, it’s thankful that Jordan James is seemingly filling the void that KDH left behind. If you want to get promoted however; you need that little bit more. That’s where Cifuentes needs to be getting more out of Mavididi and Fatawu, ideally those two need to be hitting double figures this season, unfortunately Mavididi is of course nowhere near that right now. 
 

As for the certain stats out of possession, I have no idea what QPR’s running stats looked under Cifuentes, but in terms of PPDA for example, at one point last season they ranked 23rd in the Championship. His teams don’t press aggressively which is a massive shame, because we showed we could do it in that Fiorentina friendly game, since then for whatever reason, those tactics have been ditched. 
 

I’ve said it numerous times before as well, I still believe our build up play is often too slow. You look at Opta’s stats in terms of build ups, 10+ passes, sequence time, direct speed, and some of the teams that sit around us in those statistics. For direct speed, we are the joint 5th slowest team in the league alongside Norwich. West Brom, Middlesbrough, Swansea, Southampton and Sheff Wed are slower than us. Majority of those teams have all experienced problems this season, only team not to of course have been Middlesbrough, but a big reason why they’re doing so well, is by having one of the best defences in the Championship. 
 

The amount of problems we have, you didn’t even mention our woes defensively  which are even worse than our attacking woes. It’s infuriating how Marti Cifuentes sets us up from a defensive perspective, yet week in, week out, he changes fvck all. 
 

I think I’ll stop there Finners, before this turns into a full blown rant.

 

But our defensive problems are, in my opinion, in part because we don't press. 

 

At this level, against teams in the Championship, you put people under pressure on the ball and they're going to make mistakes, they're going to find it hard to build up and create chances. 

 

The problem with a mid block is that invites teams to try and pass through you. You're saying "sure, have the ball, pick your pass, we think we're good enough to shut down the space." But we aren't. 

 

We're inviting that pressure on to ourselves and backing ourselves to handle it when we can't. You could compensate for that a lot more by aggressively defending much further up the pitch where we do have genuinely athletic players who can cause problems for the opposition before they even get to our box. 

 

Enzo had the same shit centre backs that Marti does, in fact Marti arguably has better by virtue of having a bit of choice here with Nelson and Okoli. 

 

But they've been thoroughly exposed this year because we're not making it difficult for teams in front of them. On the contrary, we're inviting them in. It's ****ing awful. 

 

[kingfox]

25 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

But our defensive problems are, in my opinion, in part because we don't press. 

 

At this level, against teams in the Championship, you put people under pressure on the ball and they're going to make mistakes, they're going to find it hard to build up and create chances. 

 

The problem with a mid block is that invites teams to try and pass through you. You're saying "sure, have the ball, pick your pass, we think we're good enough to shut down the space." But we aren't. 

 

We're inviting that pressure on to ourselves and backing ourselves to handle it when we can't. You could compensate for that a lot more by aggressively defending much further up the pitch where we do have genuinely athletic players who can cause problems for the opposition before they even get to our box. 

 

Enzo had the same shit centre backs that Marti does, in fact Marti arguably has better by virtue of having a bit of choice here with Nelson and Okoli. 

 

But they've been thoroughly exposed this year because we're not making it difficult for teams in front of them. On the contrary, we're inviting them in. It's ****ing awful. 

 

Something must have changed in his mind after that Fiorentina game. After seeing that, I was rubbing my hands in anticipation to see it adopted in the league, yet it disappeared and we haven’t really seen an aggressive press since. Does he feel we don’t have the right personnel to play it, Ayew leading the line for example, and earlier in the season Winks and Soumare were prominent figures. 
 

What concerns me the most though is how vulnerable we look on transitions. When you’re asking Jordan James to push forward like a 8/10, once you turn the ball over, a massive space is then vacated. We’ve seen in recent games Bobby Reid dropping into this space to give Oli Skipp a bit of support. On transition, we leave far too much space for the opposition to exploit, leaving Oli Skipp to try and defend situations by himself, as much as he’s improved, it’s glaringly obvious he needs better help in there. 
 

You’re just leaving too much space to exploit vulnerable defenders who don’t enjoy defending like Luke Thomas. 
 

It’s no wonder we give up so many chances, and have one of the worst xGC numbers in the league. 

[HankMarvin]

14 minutes ago, kingfox said:

Something must have changed in his mind after that Fiorentina game

Yeah he had time to coach the players 

[Finnegan]

40 minutes ago, kingfox said:

Something must have changed in his mind after that Fiorentina game

 

Honestly, I think too many people took the Fiorentina game to heart. His tactics almost certainly hadn't properly bedded in and he also sent us out needing to get match fitness for a new year. 

 

It's just one match. Everything else here is the normal Cifuentes. 

 

There's plenty of write ups on the internet about his tactical approach at Hammarby and QPR and they all describe a system that aims to shut down the centre of the park in a mid block that forces opponents wide and puts pressure on our own full backs to be defensively competent and win possession actively or else have the midfield intercept attempts through the middle. 

 

RVN had the same approach and JJ suffered enormously for it last year whilst Thomas is suffering for it this year. In both instances we have full backs who are far more comfortable on the ball than actually defending and we're deliberately channelling play towards them. 

 

Historically, when we had actual success, deliberately pushing teams wide it was with the likes of Danny Simpson at full back (who, for as much as he's awful on the ball was a great defender) and then Morgan and Huth inside defending any crosses that got by. 

 

Now we're inviting that pressure whilst we've got awful defensive full backs and central defenders who have terrible aerial challenge win rates and we're going all surprised pikachu when we concede. 

 

I genuinely feel for Thomas like I felt for JJ last year because they're being hung out to dry by their managers' incompetence exposing their weaknesses. 

 

Edited 20 January by Finnegan

[smudgerfox]

27 minutes ago, kingfox said:

What concerns me the most though is how vulnerable we look on transitions. When you’re asking Jordan James to push forward like a 8/10, once you turn the ball over, a massive space is then vacated. We’ve seen in recent games Bobby Reid dropping into this space to give Oli Skipp a bit of support. On transition, we leave far too much space for the opposition to exploit, leaving Oli Skipp to try and defend situations by himself, as much as he’s improved, it’s glaringly obvious he needs better help in there

I agree with this and I think it's one of the many fundamentals that can be traced back to the Brendan era.

 

Even under Enzo we were desperately vulnerable to counter attacks. You often see opposition wingers in yards and yards of space - the nearest blue shirt 20 even 30 yards away. Decent players can ruthlessly exploit that kind of space. But it happens time and time again. It has a bit to fo with the inverted full back  - yes we have an extra man in midfield- but we have no defender guarding the right flank ..an open invitation to the opposition left sided wide man ...

[kingfox]

29 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Honestly, I think too many people took the Fiorentina game to heart. His tactics almost certainly hadn't properly bedded in and he also sent us out needing to get match fitness for a new year. 

 

It's just one match. Everything else here is the normal Cifuentes. 

 

There's plenty of write ups on the internet about his tactical approach at Hammarby and QPR and they all describe a system that aims to shut down the centre of the park in a mid block that forces opponents wide and puts pressure on our own full backs to be defensively competent and win possession actively or else have the midfield intercept attempts through the middle. 

 

RVN had the same approach and JJ suffered enormously for it last year whilst Thomas is suffering for it this year. In both instances we have full backs who are far more comfortable on the ball than actually defending and we're deliberately channelling play towards them. 

 

Historically, when we had actual success, deliberately pushing teams wide it was with the likes of Danny Simpson at full back (who, for as much as he's awful on the ball was a great defender) and then Morgan and Huth inside defending any crosses that got by. 

 

Now we're inviting that pressure whilst we've got awful defensive full backs and central defenders who have terrible aerial challenge win rates and we're going all surprised pikachu when we concede. 

 

I genuinely feel for Thomas like I felt for JJ last year because they're being hung out to dry by their managers' incompetence exposing their weaknesses. 

 

I can remember posting on here a few months back that certain stats like pressing, were starting to very much correlate with his QPR side.
 

I thoroughly agree with the comments regarding the mid block and the defensive pressure our full-backs are under. 
 

But I think there’s two elements of our defending that we’re shit at, not defending well in a mid block, and not defending well when transitions happen.

 

Take Karlan Grant’s goal against WBA for example. Evidently we got our press wrong, but in the end it lead to them exploiting a massive space which led to him scoring…

 

All that space to exploit is fvcking embarrassing. But so many times this season we see moments like this, where we get caught on transition, a massive space like that then gets exploited, which leads to an opposition chance, or even worse, a goal. 
 

It happens game after game, and Cifuentes has done fvck all to address why we look so vulnerable defensively. 
 

If we lose to Wrexham tonight, you just know their goals will either come from a cross where our full-backs become exposed, or off a transition where a massive space in midfield is exploited. 

Edited 20 January by kingfox

[Finnegan]

4 minutes ago, kingfox said:

I can remember posting on here a few months back that certain stats like pressing, were starting to very much correlate with his QPR side.
 

I thoroughly agree with the comments regarding the mid block and the defensive pressure our full-backs are under. 
 

But I think there’s two elements of our defending that we’re shit at, not defending well in a mid block, and not defending well when transitions happen.

 

Take Karlan Grant’s goal against WBA for example. Evidently we got our press wrong, but in the end it lead to them exploiting a massive space which led to him scoring…

 

All that space to exploit is fvcking embarrassing. But so many times this season we see moments like this, where we get caught on transition, a massive space like that then gets exploited, which leads to an opposition chance, or even worse, a goal. 
 

It happens game after game, and Cifuentes has done fvck all to address why we look so vulnerable defensively. 
 

If we lose to Wrexham tonight, you just know their goals will either come from a cross where our full-backs become exposed, or off a transition where a massive space in midfield is exploited. 

 

I hate to bang on about Enzo all the time but it is difficult when he was our last competent coach. But this is exactly it, night and day, under Enzo we were exceptional in the transition and it was really obvious we practiced this a lot. 

 

Fans moaned all the time about us playing risky football out from the back but quite frequently we'd turn possession over whilst trying to build something but we'd immediately have several players closing in to recover the ball because we were well set up to anticipate that.

 

We have none of that now, we have a directionless mess.

 

Modern footballers need and expect extensive coaching. Most of them have had freedom of thought coached out of them, they get drilled from a young age to follow specific patterns of play and only those patterns. We don't have a team full of instinctive, clever footballers, we have a group of guys that really need to be told when to breathe and when to wipe their arse and that's exactly why they liked Enzo. He was thorough, he was detailed, he coached them down to the specifics, meticulously, studying every opponent and telling them what we were going to do. The players have spoken occasionally about this and about the lack of it since he left.

 

It's the level of detail and preparation that makes football in the world of the hyper-systems driven game. Shit, it's even why England women are so good, because Sarina Weigman is an absolute master at that drilling and prep.

 

We just don't look well coached, we haven't in a couple of years now. 

 

[Richmondfox]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

I hate to bang on about Enzo all the time but it is difficult when he was our last competent coach. But this is exactly it, night and day, under Enzo we were exceptional in the transition and it was really obvious we practiced this a lot. 

 

Fans moaned all the time about us playing risky football out from the back but quite frequently we'd turn possession over whilst trying to build something but we'd immediately have several players closing in to recover the ball because we were well set up to anticipate that.

 

We have none of that now, we have a directionless mess.

 

Modern footballers need and expect extensive coaching. Most of them have had freedom of thought coached out of them, they get drilled from a young age to follow specific patterns of play and only those patterns. We don't have a team full of instinctive, clever footballers, we have a group of guys that really need to be told when to breathe and when to wipe their arse and that's exactly why they liked Enzo. He was thorough, he was detailed, he coached them down to the specifics, meticulously, studying every opponent and telling them what we were going to do. The players have spoken occasionally about this and about the lack of it since he left.

 

It's the level of detail and preparation that makes football in the world of the hyper-systems driven game. Shit, it's even why England women are so good, because Sarina Weigman is an absolute master at that drilling and prep.

 

We just don't look well coached, we haven't in a couple of years now. 

 

It’s frustrating that all he does is rotate players rather than change anything on the pitch. 
 

He is accepting the actions of blockers like Ayew and Thomas as well as leaving the wingers stranded and allowing them to be greedy and lazy. 

 

Nelson seems to have formed a habit the last few games of leaving high balls, letting them bounce and ending up gifting the strikers a chance. All the defence seem content with backing up and allowing cross or shot in the box, even if they are last man.  Jakobs flapping and directing the ball back to the danger area doesn’t help anyone. 

[FrankieADZ]

please please can we just get rid of this idiot now

[Loxm98]

This manager really is a coward isn't he.

[Wymsey]

14 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said:

please please can we just get rid of this idiot now

Reckon he'll stay until season-end, at least.

Edited 20 January by Wymsey

[Paninistickers]

4 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

I hate to bang on about Enzo all the time but it is difficult when he was our last competent coach. But this is exactly it, night and day, under Enzo we were exceptional in the transition and it was really obvious we practiced this a lot. 

 

Fans moaned all the time about us playing risky football out from the back but quite frequently we'd turn possession over whilst trying to build something but we'd immediately have several players closing in to recover the ball because we were well set up to anticipate that.

 

We have none of that now, we have a directionless mess.

 

Modern footballers need and expect extensive coaching. Most of them have had freedom of thought coached out of them, they get drilled from a young age to follow specific patterns of play and only those patterns. We don't have a team full of instinctive, clever footballers, we have a group of guys that really need to be told when to breathe and when to wipe their arse and that's exactly why they liked Enzo. He was thorough, he was detailed, he coached them down to the specifics, meticulously, studying every opponent and telling them what we were going to do. The players have spoken occasionally about this and about the lack of it since he left.

 

It's the level of detail and preparation that makes football in the world of the hyper-systems driven game. Shit, it's even why England women are so good, because Sarina Weigman is an absolute master at that drilling and prep.

 

We just don't look well coached, we haven't in a couple of years now. 

 

Totally agree, but, there were murmurings towards the end of that season that the players wanted a plan B and reacted to crowd pressure in games against (iirc) West Brom, Norwich and Brum to just go for it 

 

But you're right, Marti seems to set them up like a Sunday league boss. You can imagine the team talk 'Hamza, you're at left back, JJ and Skipp midfield, Jordan, you're up front son' 

[Tuna]

Another thrashing and he should be gone, any sensible club would sack him but you know it won't happen. Should have gone after QPR.

[oxtonfox]

2 minutes ago, Tuna said:

Another thrashing and he should be gone, any sensible club would sack him but you know it won't happen. Should have gone after QPR.

Despite a defeat or even a thrashing you know this club will do nothing and he stays till the end of the accounting year. Complete inertia everywhere. 

[Kasey Keller]

Can we convince him to pay his own redundancy fee 🤣🤣

[Cropwellfox]

Jesus the games since clean sheet stat makes dire reading 

Edited 20 January by Cropwellfox

[coolhandfox]

How can anyone be behind this clown with the stats that Sky share every time we are on TV!

 

 

[Corky]

Just now, coolhandfox said:

How can anyone be behind this clown with the stats that Sky share every time we are on TV!

 

 

They are statistics you would have expected from Burton, Scunthorpe and Yeovil when they were in this division.

[FrankieADZ]

nelson at lb, sorry get this ****ing idiot out the club

[markko]

I have heard a rumour about Marti.......

[markko]

Leicester have been studying Chelsea blueprint and have decided to give staff long contracts. They are starting with management and Marti is getting 8 years. Top believes you have to speculate to accumulate!!!

Edited 20 January by markko

[Gamble92]

Genuinely no game plan is there