Animal rights

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, ozleicester said:

Owners and Jockeys love these majestic beasts....

 

http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/superracing/jockey-dylan-cabouche-suspended-after-punching-horse-prior-to-race/news-story/73dc8df53cc1b48d778bb590adf8ba49

 

2 week suspension, that'll learn him. 

[ozleicester]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

2 week suspension, that'll learn him. 

oh yeh, we take this cruelty sh1t seriously!

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, Aus Fox said:

I had lumped on Wall of Fire, thought he'd have a good run at it.

His connections seem to think the race wasn't ran at a good even pace for him to strike, great shame as he's got so much talent.

[David Guiza]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/09/rspca-search-man-appeared-repeatedly-throw-terrified-greyhound/ 

 

I can and never will be able to comprehend this sort of barbarism. If you don't wish to keep your animal anymore than take it to a shelter; the punishment for this and similar crimes should be far greater than it currently is. Only recently been upped to a maximum of 5 years which is nonsense.  

[ozleicester]

8,000 - 10,000 race horses in Australia go to "wastage" in Australia every year.

 

20% of Australian race horses have  their tongues tied.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/off-track/9960642

Edited 9 July 2018 by ozleicester

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Mankind's cruelty to animals is sickening and disgusting. It makes my blood boil. Pure evil.

[Col city fan]

17 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Mankind's cruelty to animals is sickening and disgusting. It makes my blood boil. Pure evil.

Spot on.

I genuinely believe some animals show more compassion than some humans. When it comes to animal cruelty, it shows just how many shit-heads there are on the planet.

[FoxesDeb]

2 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

I genuinely believe some animals show more compassion than some humans. When it comes to animal cruelty, it shows just how many shit-heads there are on the planet.

This is definitely true. If my dog sees me cry she gets upset too, she tries to sit on my lap and she licks my face (not the thread for getting that the wrong way round BTW) Most blokes would just leave me to it and fvck off down the pub 

[urban.spaceman]

9 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

I genuinely believe some animals show more compassion than some humans. When it comes to animal cruelty, it shows just how many shit-heads there are on the planet.

Elephants and chimps are known to show empathy, compassion and grief. 

[Carl the Llama]

9 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

This is definitely true. If my dog sees me cry she gets upset too, she tries to sit on my lap and she licks my face (not the thread for getting that the wrong way round BTW) Most blokes would just leave me to it and fvck off down the pub 

I'm sorry that's just not fair.  Most of us would tell you to cheer up cause it might never happen first.

[FoxesDeb]

7 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

I'm sorry that's just not fair.  Most of us would tell you to cheer up cause it might never happen first.

Yes, usually when it already had ?

[Lcfcbisto]

2 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

This is definitely true. If my dog sees me cry she gets upset too, she tries to sit on my lap and she licks my face (not the thread for getting that the wrong way round BTW) Most blokes would just leave me to it and fvck off down the pub 

My dog is the same and shows love to me and the family all the time, but you can’t compare them with a bad bloke.  

Not all blokes fvck off to the pub and to be honest iv never met a dog that didn’t like a walk down the pub a little sleep and a few crisps from the locals 

[murphy]

On 10/07/2018 at 20:25, Col city fan said:

Spot on.

I genuinely believe some animals show more compassion than some humans. When it comes to animal cruelty, it shows just how many shit-heads there are on the planet.

I'm not sure that animals show compassion, but they also do not have that sickening well of cruelty that seems to be a strictly human disease.

[Webbo]

21 minutes ago, murphy said:

I'm not sure that animals show compassion, but they also do not have that sickening well of cruelty that seems to be a strictly human disease.

Pretty sure that's not true. Cats are notoriously cruel to mice and birds.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Pretty sure that's not true. Cats are notoriously cruel to mice and birds.

Yeah, some animals, particularly mammals (and cats would be the particular example I would use too) have been shown to be capable of sadism and cruelty - though nowhere close to the imaginative extent that humans can.

 

They also do show compassion, possibly in greater quantities than the above.

 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, some animals, particularly mammals (and cats would be the particular example I would use too) have been shown to be capable of sadism and cruelty - though nowhere close to the imaginative extent that humans can.

 

They also do show compassion, possibly in greater quantities than the above.

 

 

 

I think you are anthropomorphising, Mac - cats do not have the conscious capacity to be either cruel or compassionate.

 

This kind of play starts when they are kittens, learning how to hunt. It is an ancient thing, and all wild cats do this, as do foxes, who hunt in the same style. It triggers the pleasure centres of the brain. Some cats have this much more strongly than others. (The same way some dogs want to fetch and other dogs cannot comprehend the behaviour). Humans tend to see well-fed adult domestic cats interacting with small “prey” when those cats are not doing it for a living. Often, it’s just for fun. It is about the way the prey moves, stops, starts again. It does not recognize the prey as a personality or a living thing, so the concept of cruelty is absent.

An insect, laser light, or a wind-up toy provide the same relief from boredom. They make videos for cats to watch now, designed to trigger the parts of the brain that respond to specific kinds of movement. When humans created the housecat, we wanted mousers first and companions second. However, in the last 200 years or more, we want companions first. This means we did not select for hunting, and many housecats do not have that urge. This is why just putting any cat in a barn is not going to solve any problems with mice…you need a cat who has the desire to hunt and kill.

Edited 12 July 2018 by Buce

[murphy]

17 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Pretty sure that's not true. Cats are notoriously cruel to mice and birds.

Buce has beaten me to it, but it is not cruelty at play here although it can look like it to us.  In order to be cruel, you need to first be able to understand that your quarry is suffering.  Something we humans can understand but empathy would be a very counter productive trait for any predator to have, such as a cat.

 

Cats can be stimulated by the movement of prey, they can learn to hunt from being presented with disabled prey as kittens by their parents, similar to foxes, but they can't understand the suffering of their prey.

 

We anthropomorphise with animals.  A case in point would be a fox breaking into a chicken coop and killing every last chicken.  More than it could eat.  People often say that the fox kills for fun when the truth is it would return for the others if left undistrubed.  It is too good a bounty to pass up.  If we go to Sainsburys we don't just get shopping for that day, we get if for the whole week.  Same for the fox in that situation. 

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, murphy said:

Buce has beaten me to it, but it is not cruelty at play here although it can look like it to us.  In order to be cruel, you need to first be able to understand that your quarry is suffering.  Something we humans can understand but empathy would be a very counter productive trait for any predator to have, such as a cat.

 

Cats can be stimulated by the movement of prey, they can learn to hunt from being presented with disabled prey as kittens by their parents, similar to foxes, but they can't understand the suffering of their prey.

 

We anthropomorphise with animals.  A case in point would be a fox breaking into a chicken coop and killing every last chicken.  More than it could eat.  People often say that the fox kills for fun when the truth is it would return for the others if left undistrubed.  It is too good a bounty to pass up.  If we go to Sainsburys we don't just get shopping for that day, we get if for the whole week.  Same for the fox in that situation. 

Not much point comparing them to humans then?

[murphy]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, some animals, particularly mammals (and cats would be the particular example I would use too) have been shown to be capable of sadism and cruelty - though nowhere close to the imaginative extent that humans can.

 

They also do show compassion, possibly in greater quantities than the above.

 

I would be interested in any examples of that, but please, not dogs, there are easy explanations for their behaviour.  IF you can find examples of compassion within wildlife I would be really interested.

 

[murphy]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Not much point comparing them to humans then?

Maybe not.  Just saying that we have a horrible cruelty within human nature.

 

I'm team animal.  I resigned from the human race long ago.

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, murphy said:

Maybe not.  Just saying that we have a horrible cruelty within human nature.

 

I'm team animal.  I resigned from the human race long ago.

We also have a greater capacity for compassion, which I assumed was Mac's point. We look after total strangers, make laws to protect others and animals too.

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

We also have a greater capacity for compassion, which I assumed was Mac's point. We look after total strangers, make laws to protect others and animals too.

True. 

 

I suppose it is a glass half empty/ half full kind of a question.  Do you look around the world see what humans do and think that humans are a particularly nice species?  Especially when we have empathy and the intelligence to know right from wrong.  I think not.

 

'Cept for me, obvs.

[leicsmac]

25 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I think you are anthropomorphising, Mac - cats do not have the conscious capacity to be either cruel or compassionate.

 

This kind of play starts when they are kittens, learning how to hunt. It is an ancient thing, and all wild cats do this, as do foxes, who hunt in the same style. It triggers the pleasure centres of the brain. Some cats have this much more strongly than others. (The same way some dogs want to fetch and other dogs cannot comprehend the behaviour). Humans tend to see well-fed adult domestic cats interacting with small “prey” when those cats are not doing it for a living. Often, it’s just for fun. It is about the way the prey moves, stops, starts again. It does not recognize the prey as a personality or a living thing, so the concept of cruelty is absent.

An insect, laser light, or a wind-up toy provide the same relief from boredom. They make videos for cats to watch now, designed to trigger the parts of the brain that respond to specific kinds of movement. When humans created the housecat, we wanted mousers first and companions second. However, in the last 200 years or more, we want companions first. This means we did not select for hunting, and many housecats do not have that urge. This is why just putting any cat in a barn is not going to solve any problems with mice…you need a cat who has the desire to hunt and kill.

 

Inflicting pain and toying with a prey animal in that way and having the pleasure centres of the brain triggered by it would be a textbook description of sadism IMO. Or are you saying that because they don't consider a prey animal to be alive and you need that capacity for such behaviour to be sadism in the first place? If so, then yeah I can see what you mean.

 

 

12 minutes ago, murphy said:

I would be interested in any examples of that, but please, not dogs, there are easy explanations for their behaviour.  IF you can find examples of compassion within wildlife I would be really interested.

 

I would say that any animal in a family group/tribe/pride who care for their elderly or infirm individuals rather than casting them out/killing them out of expediency (some primates at least do this I believe) would fall under that description of compassion, but YMMV.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, murphy said:

True. 

 

I suppose it is a glass half empty/ half full kind of a question.  Do you look around the world see what humans do and think that humans are a particularly nice species?  Especially when we have empathy and the intelligence to know right from wrong.  I think not.

 

'Cept for me, obvs.

 

This belongs more in a general philosophy thread rather than here, but humans are different from animals in terms of having much greater potential for either good actions or bad actions either way because of the way our brains have developed.

[murphy]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Inflicting pain and toying with a prey animal in that way and having the pleasure centres of the brain triggered by it would be a textbook description of sadism IMO. Or are you saying that because they don't consider a prey animal to be alive and you need that capacity for such behaviour to be sadism in the first place? If so, then yeah I can see what you mean.

 

 

I would say that any animal in a family group/tribe/pride who care for their elderly or infirm individuals rather than casting them out/killing them out of expediency (some primates at least do this I believe) would fall under that description of compassion, but YMMV.

 I used to run a wildlife rescue and we would often get vagrant badgers in.  These are old timers that have been cast out by the pack as they have become a hindrance.  Always had wound on their rumps from the badgers that were running them out of town.  We had to build artificial setts or retirement homes for them, so that is an example of packs casting out the weak and infirm.  I don't know about apes though.  Interesting if that is true.