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I am Rod Hull

2014 World cup qualifiers

By I am Rod Hull, in General Football and Sport

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Dan

Dan

Posted
Posted

I agree, but for me the problem with him and Ronaldo is similar: they've both delivered at the highest possible level for their clubs (well, with Ronaldo its a bit tenuous) but they are both yet to do so for their country in the truly critical games against tough, tough opposition in knockout matches. I know international football is no longer the be all and end all, but the question mark still remains for them to set one World Cup alight in the way that many other true legends of the game have.

 

Yeh, I can't disagree with that. I think Messi's no worse for Argentina than Ronaldo is for Portugal, but this next one will be massive for both as I'd say it's the one that they'll be both closest to their peak - I think Messi benefits though as it's in South America.

 

I can't wait for it. It'll be better than the last one.

 

Not really I think you've somewhat over estimated Bolivia and Venezuela somewhat and you're only referring to World Cup Qualifying your forgetting friendlies and the Euro's a competition which only comprises the best 16 teams in Europe. I don't agree with pointing to the goals for column to back up a players ability anyway but to do so with Messi, a man capable of a goal at club level yet can't even make one in two at international level seems silly to me.

 

lol agreed but he's some distance from best player in the world would you not say.  

 

So you think the likes of Bolivia & Venezuela would come below Scotland, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, Lithuania, Finland etc... I'm not convinced they would at all.

 

World Cup qualifying is the main source of competitive games. Argentina play against a better standard than England do.

 

Agree that the goals aren't always accurate but 37 in 83 isn't bad for someone who's apparently 'shit for Argentina'. I've always had Messi down as more of a creative player with the way he plays, which makes his goals tally even more remarkable.

Stadt

Stadt

Posted
Posted

Ronaldo is the talisman, the main piece if the Portugal side whereas Messi is an integral cog in the Argentina side. Ronaldo is there to score, Messi is there to score and create.

Kitchandro

Kitchandro

Posted
Posted

Messi was integral to everything good that Argentina did at the last world cup. He didn't score but he did hit the post about 6 or 7 times.

 

To call him piss poor at South Africa is laughable. It's just everyone, including his own teammates at times, expected him to do everything himself, whilst being marked by about 4 players.

 

Argentina as a team didn't turn up against Germany. You're asking one player, as amazing as he is, to run rings by himself around a team full of great players.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

Messi was integral to everything good that Argentina did at the last world cup. He didn't score but he did hit the post about 6 or 7 times.

 

To call him piss poor at South Africa is laughable. It's just everyone, including his own teammates at times, expected him to do everything himself, whilst being marked by about 4 players.

 

Argentina as a team didn't turn up against Germany. You're asking one player, as amazing as he is, to run rings by himself around a team full of great players.

 

Yep, that is exactly what I'm asking. I'm also asking him to inspire a bunch of teammates who aren't as good to play out of their skins to help.

 

Because the true true legends of the game did that, and the end product was them holding the World Cup aloft at the end of the tournament. Pele had a great team alongside him in '70 but still ran the show, none of the Argentina side in '86 were nearly as good as Maradona but he single-handedly (no pun intended) dragged them to that cup, Ronaldo bagged two in the WC 2002 final (and more in the preceding matches) when Brazil were looking a bit shaky that year, and the France team in '98 were solid defensively but unspectacular but Zidane inspired them including netting in the final himself. 

 

All of those players had their one tournament where they went to town, and not only commanded with their own performances but inspired those around them to play out of their skins and win the WC, and that's why they're remembered as some of the true legends of the game. Messi and Ronaldo have the potential to do likewise, but they haven't shown it yet - and IMO they must to be remembered alongside those legends.  

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Uruguays price drifts from 1.08 to 1.25 on Betfair with 10 million quid matched and they get held to a 0-0.

 

Hmmmmmm......

Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted

Messi will have Aguero around him in Brazil though so there's no excuses. Who does Ronaldo have? Nani? lol. Can't see either troubling Brazil's squad and spirit however. 

Dan

Dan

Posted
Posted

Yep, that is exactly what I'm asking. I'm also asking him to inspire a bunch of teammates who aren't as good to play out of their skins to help.

 

Because the true true legends of the game did that, and the end product was them holding the World Cup aloft at the end of the tournament. Pele had a great team alongside him in '70 but still ran the show, none of the Argentina side in '86 were nearly as good as Maradona but he single-handedly (no pun intended) dragged them to that cup, Ronaldo bagged two in the WC 2002 final (and more in the preceding matches) when Brazil were looking a bit shaky that year, and the France team in '98 were solid defensively but unspectacular but Zidane inspired them including netting in the final himself. 

 

All of those players had their one tournament where they went to town, and not only commanded with their own performances but inspired those around them to play out of their skins and win the WC, and that's why they're remembered as some of the true legends of the game. Messi and Ronaldo have the potential to do likewise, but they haven't shown it yet - and IMO they must to be remembered alongside those legends.  

 

Got a lot of time for this post.

 

Messi was 22/23 during the last World Cup. That's still relatively a youngster. Whilst I can fully take your point here, I think it takes a huge mentality to do it at that kind of age.

 

2014 is Messi's year to shine. It's the best chance he will ever get of winning a World Cup. Effectively on home turf and hitting his peak age. I'll be very interested to see how he performs.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

Got a lot of time for this post.

 

Messi was 22/23 during the last World Cup. That's still relatively a youngster. Whilst I can fully take your point here, I think it takes a huge mentality to do it at that kind of age.

 

2014 is Messi's year to shine. It's the best chance he will ever get of winning a World Cup. Effectively on home turf and hitting his peak age. I'll be very interested to see how he performs.

 

Yeah, agree with all of this.

 

It's nicely set up for him, so let's see what he can do.

Manwell Pablo

Manwell Pablo

Posted
Posted

Yep, that is exactly what I'm asking. I'm also asking him to inspire a bunch of teammates who aren't as good to play out of their skins to help.

 

Because the true true legends of the game did that, and the end product was them holding the World Cup aloft at the end of the tournament. Pele had a great team alongside him in '70 but still ran the show, none of the Argentina side in '86 were nearly as good as Maradona but he single-handedly (no pun intended) dragged them to that cup, Ronaldo bagged two in the WC 2002 final (and more in the preceding matches) when Brazil were looking a bit shaky that year, and the France team in '98 were solid defensively but unspectacular but Zidane inspired them including netting in the final himself. 

 

All of those players had their one tournament where they went to town, and not only commanded with their own performances but inspired those around them to play out of their skins and win the WC, and that's why they're remembered as some of the true legends of the game. Messi and Ronaldo have the potential to do likewise, but they haven't shown it yet - and IMO they must to be remembered alongside those legends.  

 

No need to add to this. (other than the fact that I don't think Ronaldo will ever do that for Portugal)

Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

Switzerland - tops seed, still makes me chuckle.

Chile

Honduras

England

 

Would take that.

 

2nd go

 

Germany

Mexico

Chile

England

 

Gulp

Kitchandro

Kitchandro

Posted
Posted

Yep, that is exactly what I'm asking. I'm also asking him to inspire a bunch of teammates who aren't as good to play out of their skins to help.

 

Because the true true legends of the game did that, and the end product was them holding the World Cup aloft at the end of the tournament. Pele had a great team alongside him in '70 but still ran the show, none of the Argentina side in '86 were nearly as good as Maradona but he single-handedly (no pun intended) dragged them to that cup, Ronaldo bagged two in the WC 2002 final (and more in the preceding matches) when Brazil were looking a bit shaky that year, and the France team in '98 were solid defensively but unspectacular but Zidane inspired them including netting in the final himself. 

 

All of those players had their one tournament where they went to town, and not only commanded with their own performances but inspired those around them to play out of their skins and win the WC, and that's why they're remembered as some of the true legends of the game. Messi and Ronaldo have the potential to do likewise, but they haven't shown it yet - and IMO they must to be remembered alongside those legends.  

 

But you see, nobody in their right mind could possibly think Pele was anywhere near as good as Messi is. Besides, he didn't really run the show, Jairzinho was just as influential in that tournament, possibly more so. But I digress...

 

I should also say I don't think any of those sides mentioned in your post above were outclassed in the fashion Argentina were against Germany in 2010. Not when they won it at least.

 

Zidane was a shadow of his former self when France struggled and got knocked out in the first round in 2002. Similar to Pele in England, when Brazil were knocked out. Ronaldo went missing in the final of 1998 (ok, fair enough, we don't know what went on but I suspect it was something to do with him bottling it; he was a youngster and had unbelievable pressure). Even Maradona couldn't carry his side through in 82 or the final in 90.

 

Messi has already been the star in a ridiculously good Barcelona side, and has scored massive goals for them, and not easy ones either, often ones he's made himself.

 

We need to distinguish between a World Cup legend and a football legend. You can't go round saying Messi isn't a footballing legend because he's not won the world cup. The man has broken records all over the shop and you only have to watch him to see that he's probably the greatest player of all time.

 

It's true, he could be even more legendary if he hauled Argentina to a world cup victory. He may still do. But my original point was about about people calling him crap or something at the last world cup. Now, just because he didn't win them the world cup on his own, when they were completely outclassed by one of the best sides I've seen (they  were even better than Spain in that tournament, aside from the semi-final when Spain finally looked the part, and the Gerries had an off day) does not mean he was crap. Or even close to it in fact.

 

Even the legends you mention above weren't always at their brilliant best, and all of them  would have struggled to win Argentina the world cup in 2010.

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

But you see, nobody in their right mind could possibly think Pele was anywhere near as good as Messi is. Besides, he didn't really run the show, Jairzinho was just as influential in that tournament, possibly more so. But I digress...

 

I should also say I don't think any of those sides mentioned in your post above were outclassed in the fashion Argentina were against Germany in 2010. Not when they won it at least.

 

Zidane was a shadow of his former self when France struggled and got knocked out in the first round in 2002. Similar to Pele in England, when Brazil were knocked out. Ronaldo went missing in the final of 1998 (ok, fair enough, we don't know what went on but I suspect it was something to do with him bottling it; he was a youngster and had unbelievable pressure). Even Maradona couldn't carry his side through in 82 or the final in 90.

 

Messi has already been the star in a ridiculously good Barcelona side, and has scored massive goals for them, and not easy ones either, often ones he's made himself.

 

We need to distinguish between a World Cup legend and a football legend. You can't go round saying Messi isn't a footballing legend because he's not won the world cup. The man has broken records all over the shop and you only have to watch him to see that he's probably the greatest player of all time.

 

It's true, he could be even more legendary if he hauled Argentina to a world cup victory. He may still do. But my original point was about about people calling him crap or something at the last world cup. Now, just because he didn't win them the world cup on his own, when they were completely outclassed by one of the best sides I've seen (they  were even better than Spain in that tournament, aside from the semi-final when Spain finally looked the part, and the Gerries had an off day) does not mean he was crap. Or even close to it in fact.

 

Even the legends you mention above weren't always at their brilliant best, and all of them  would have struggled to win Argentina the world cup in 2010.

 

Good response. I'll try to answer each point in turn.

 

None of those sides were outclassed in the way Argentina were because the truly great players at the one tournament that they set alight simply would not allow it to happen. That's one of the signs of them being the true legends they are. They dragged their team mates up so they could match better sides on paper. Pele in '70 I would agree is something of an inversion (as I mentioned) as he was surrounded by class team mates, but a goal and an assist in the final speaks for itself. And Argentina '86, France '98 and Brazil '02 were all not the best sides at their respective cups, but Maradona, Zidane and Ronaldo all pulled them through.

 

You did mention that all of them also had those tournaments where they went missing at crucial times too - and that's absolutely right, they all did. Zidane twice, I guess, if that moment of insanity in the '06 final counts. But they DID also have the one - just one, but that's all that's needed -  tournament where they ran the show and won the whole lot, and are remembered for it. That's something neither Messi nor Ronaldo have done thus far.

 

As for Messi himself, its clear you rate him very highly indeed due to his achievements with Barcelona. And I agree, it's clear that he's a fantastic player, borne out by the sheer number of goals he's scored and the style with which he's scored some of them. Certainly one of - if not the best - of the current generation.

 

However...as I said before, even though international football is no longer the be all and end all, IMO to be recognised as a true footballing legend you have to set one World Cup alight, as well as doing the business with your club. How many footballers are remembered as true legends from decades ago just because of what they did with their clubs? George Best - probably. Stanley Matthews - played largely at a time when England didn't enter the Cup. But there aren't many of them. The World Cup is still the event that everyone watches, and which people remember for a long time.

 

I said that Messi had a poor World Cup in 2010 by his very own high standards. He didn't score (though the assists count was high) and Argentina went out in very poor fashion to Germany. For most other players, reaching the QF's and losing to a very good team would be a decent achievement. But for Messi, who is as good as he is, the bar should be set higher. But...as people have pointed out, he was young, and even the legends had (at least) one bad (by the standards for which they are remembered) World Cup. 

 

I certainly think that this Argentina side falls into the bracket where they have the potential to win next year. if Messi can inspire them to do it. 

 

And for me, that's the one thing he has left to do that he is capable of to be remembered alongside Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo et al. I look forward to finding out if he can.

C-man

C-man

Posted
Posted

Just did it to see what games I would get with my tickets. Got:

Belgium vs Japan

Ecuador vs England

Chile vs Greece

Portugal vs Japan

I'd take that now if they offered it to me!

StanSP

StanSP

Posted
Posted

Just did the simulator (how good are Groups A & B?!)

 

Group A:

Brazil

Japan

France

Italy

 

Group B:

Spain

Mexico

Chile

Netherlands

 

Group C:

Argentina

Australia

Ivory Coast

Bosnia

 

Group D:

Belgium

Iran

Ecuador

Portugal

 

Group E:

Germany

Costa Rica

Algeria

Croatia

 

Group F:

Switzerland

USA

Cameroon

Russia

 

Group G:

Uruguay

Honduras

Nigeria

Greece

 

Group H

Colombia

South Korea

Ghana

England

 

Teams in italics are teams I think will go through. Then simulated them through to the group stage and made sure they finished top 2 in their group (Brazil, Spain, Argentina, Belgium, Germany, Russia, Uruguay, England as group winners)

 

Knockout stage:

Brazil vs Netherlands

Argentina vs Portugal (Messi vs Ronaldo on the world's biggest stage, not planned!!)

Germany vs Cameroon

Uruguay vs Colombia

Spain vs Italy

Belgium vs Australia

Russia vs Croatia

England vs Greece

 

teams in bold who I think would progress

 

Quarter Finals - bold to progess

Brazil vs Argentina

Germany vs Colombia

Spain vs Belgium

Croatia vs England

 

Semi-Finals

Brazil vs Germany

Spain vs England

 

Final - winner in bold:

Brazil vs Spain

 

 

Obviously it all depends on who will be drawn against each other in the groups. But the final winner remained the same for me.

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