Brexit Discussion Thread.

[Dr The Singh]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah racist attacks never happens before we voted leave, shocking, I rescind my vote.

Yeah 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

2 hours ago, Spudulike said:

Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker

 

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Don't really agree with this one.

 

International language of most business, science, aviation and astronautics isn't going to go away that much.

 

I can't believe this comment was made in total seriousness...

 

It was an opening remark to a speaking engagement (therefore a common place to lay a joke), in France (where this particular joke and the sebsequent speaking in French from then on would go down well) and the joke reference that English is losing importance "in Europe" which is clearly a reference to Brexit.

 

Put in this context... it's not a bad opener for a politician.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

 

I can't believe this comment was made in total seriousness...

 

It was an opening remark to a speaking engagement (therefore a common place to lay a joke), in France (where this particular joke and the sebsequent speaking in French from then on would go down well) and the joke reference that English is losing importance "in Europe" which is clearly a reference to Brexit.

 

Put in this context... it's not a bad opener for a politician.

Perhaps it got lost in translation 

[Izzy]

44 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

 

I can't believe this comment was made in total seriousness...

 

It was an opening remark to a speaking engagement (therefore a common place to lay a joke), in France (where this particular joke and the sebsequent speaking in French from then on would go down well) and the joke reference that English is losing importance "in Europe" which is clearly a reference to Brexit.

 

Put in this context... it's not a bad opener for a politician.

I think this speech was actually delivered in Italy from reading the article.

 

Not that it really matters. I fully expect more of this light hearted piss take at Britain's expense over the next few months/years.

 

I just hope that long term we're big enough and ugly enough to stand on our own two feet in the world. It would be nice if Brexit was ultimately a huge success so we can stick two fingers up to our European 'friends' at the end of the process...

 

[leicsmac]

 

46 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

 

 

I can't believe this comment was made in total seriousness...

 

It was an opening remark to a speaking engagement (therefore a common place to lay a joke), in France (where this particular joke and the sebsequent speaking in French from then on would go down well) and the joke reference that English is losing importance "in Europe" which is clearly a reference to Brexit.

 

Put in this context... it's not a bad opener for a politician.

 

 

 

 

 

That's fair enough.

 

The French have always been a little touchy about their linguistic issues though...anyone remember the ATC's?

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Yeah racist attacks never happens before we voted leave, shocking, I rescind my vote.

 

Yeah, but this new breed of disabled racists is concerning.

 

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yeah, but this new breed of disabled racists is concerning.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, it's dreadful if true but to link everything racist or xenophobic since the vote directly to the result is disingenuous and it's out of order. It could have gone in a number of of threads and gained the appropriate responses but this one is to point and say this 'your' fault. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Oh don't get me wrong, it's dreadful if true but to link everything racist or xenophobic since the vote directly to the result is disingenuous and it's out of order. It could have gone in a number of of threads and gained the appropriate responses but this one is to point and say this 'your' fault. 

I don't think anyone is linking every one of the to the vote, just noting the notable increase in incidents, especially it seems towards Poles and other Eastern Europeans.

[Strokes]

Just now, Facecloth said:

I don't think anyone is linking every one of the to the vote, just noting the notable increase in incidents, especially it seems towards Poles and other Eastern Europeans.

Is there really an increase towards them though, there was a noted spike  of a couple of hundred increse in the month after the result. What are the figures saying now?

[Foxxed]

9 hours ago, Strokes said:

Yeah racist attacks never happens before we voted leave, shocking, I rescind my vote.

Yet our level of hate crime reported by the Home Office has increased since Brexit.

 

The referendum was based mainly on immigration. Immigrants. And the largest number of those in the UK is yes, Polish.

 

And the party behind the brexit campaign for the last decade has pointed the finger at immigrants for god knows how long.

 

And now that finger has turned into a gun.

 

Looking at the Home Office figures, looking at the rise in articles I now see, it's incredible what's happening to us as a nation.

[Foxxed]

BUT IN SOME GOOD NEWS, this was in May's EU tirade:

 

 

She seems to admit Brexit could well cripple us economically.

 

If, and only if, this means she's going to fight her party and join the Single Market I will be incredibly glad.

 

Although she also said "“We continue to believe that no deal is better for Britain than a bad deal but we want a deal. We want a deep and special partnership with the European Union and we want to succeed.” which suggests we'd walk away and burn down the economy - which will be fun unless a civil servant hides the matches.

 

[Vacamion]

 

If we are leaving the EU, why should we care which language they conduct their business in? It's nothing to do with us.

 

None of Juncker's comments affect the language used by people within Europe.  When a Swede meets a Bulgarian in Berlin or a Spaniard meets a Greek in Milan, it ain't French they use...

[Strokes]

22 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

If we are leaving the EU, why should we care which language they conduct their business in? It's nothing to do with us.

 

None of Juncker's comments affect the language used by people within Europe.  When a Swede meets a Bulgarian in Berlin or a Spaniard meets a Greek in Milan, it ain't French they use...

I agree, it's got no relevance to us whatsoever. 

[Strokes]

2 hours ago, Foxxed said:

BUT IN SOME GOOD NEWS, this was in May's EU tirade:

 

 

She seems to admit Brexit could well cripple us economically.

 

If, and only if, this means she's going to fight her party and join the Single Market I will be incredibly glad.

 

Although she also said "“We continue to believe that no deal is better for Britain than a bad deal but we want a deal. We want a deep and special partnership with the European Union and we want to succeed.” which suggests we'd walk away and burn down the economy - which will be fun unless a civil servant hides the matches.

 

Well no deal is better than a bad deal, that's not to say no deal isn't a bad deal in its own rights. Just that it's not as bad as signing the worse case scenario that they could come up with.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

People really need to stop indulging in the bluster and empty foreplay words of the pre-negotiation stances. This is all part of the early setup to sell whatever comes to pass down the line as 'a victory' (which both sides will claim). 

 

Essentially, this is the biggest game that has come to European politics for quite some time and the reactionary 5 minute outrage or rejoicing (depending on what stance you take) for every little news story only lends itself to prolonging this crap.

 

All the leading protagonists are loving the game playing, it's their little fetish, it's just a shame that by doing so they are essentially treating the electorate with utter contempt.

[Foxxed]

On 05/05/2017 at 21:29, Strokes said:

Is there really an increase towards them though, there was a noted spike  of a couple of hundred increse in the month after the result. What are the figures saying now?

Well it was a spike but the increase persisted and never went down to previous levels.

 

There's an article in the independent about a 89 percent increase over the referendum period in schools.

 

Obviously most that voted leave are unhappy about this. But then this has enlarged the lunatic fringe.

 

And there are now places in the UK where I would not recommend my Polish friends visiting because I would fear for their physical safety.

 

This is not something I would expect here. This is not something I thought we would become.

 

And with our negotiations where we blame our neighbours - not our own policy - for our economic and further woes I expect this to get worse.

 

I think this because I see no one in politics that argues passionately against our whole conception of immigration.

 

I have seen no one in politics who argues that immigrants have and do enrich our country, that they enrich it economically and culturally, that we are a culturally strong people who have nothing to fear from other cultures, that we are a strong culture exactly because we are an open and welcoming culture, that we should be proud to have an attractive economy and welcoming fair minded culture, and that the government should not shirk responsibility when people born here suffer.

 

I have, though, seen plenty of people who see failure pour out of government and then point at immigrants and say "There's your problem!"

 

They, in my opinion, just won a referendum.

[Spudulike]

Isn't it uncontrolled immigration that concerns most

[Foxxed]

3 hours ago, Spudulike said:

Isn't it uncontrolled immigration that concerns most

 

Well we already do control non EU immigration. But I guess you mean EU migration.

 

How exactly is it uncontrolled? Why do you want it to be controlled? What are the negative effects that you want to control? How do you want it to be controlled?

 

There are obviously cases where immigration has done damage. And government policy should identify this and aide communities where this has happened. It is valid to criticise the left in the failure to admit this.

 

But the idea that we are unable to manage our communities sells us short. The idea we are swamped and our culture submerged and suffocating is disrespectful to us as a nation. 

 

And the idea the best policy is to identify someone based on their location of birth and shout "out!" is both currently and historically dangerous.

 

[Spiritwalker]

Alan Johnson was being interviewed on TV this morning, he made 

the point that May was doing an excellent job in convincing both

those who want a hard Brexit, and those who want a soft Brexit

that a large Tory majority was in their interests.

[sphericalfox]

11 minutes ago, Spiritwalker said:

Alan Johnson was being interviewed on TV this morning, he made 

the point that May was doing an excellent job in convincing both

those who want a hard Brexit, and those who want a soft Brexit

that a large Tory majority was in their interests.

What does the number of Tory MPs in Parliament got to do with Brexit negotiation? It's another con.

[Alf Bentley]

35 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

What does the number of Tory MPs in Parliament got to do with Brexit negotiation? It's another con.

 

In theory.....

- Large majority means a few "Remoaner" MPs can't derail her plans to forge ahead with the Hard Brexit that all right-thinking people want 

AND

- Large majority means a few Hard Brexit extremist MPs can't derail her plans to make sensible Soft Brexit compromises during the negotiations. (I retain a little naive hope this might be the plan)

 

I assume that's what Johnson means. I can see his point, though I'm not sure many people are expecting the second outcome.....though they might be proved wrong when we're looking over the cliff edge in 18 months time.

 

In the meantime, a large majority means the Tories can do what the hell they want for 5 years, right across the board: tax (note no promises on income tax/N.I.); pensions (note no promises on triple lock); austerity cuts; NHS part-privatisation etc.

Most importantly of all, they'll have carte blanche to decide which EU social, employment and environmental rights are retained in UK legislation......rather fewer than under EU legislation is my guess.

[sphericalfox]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

In theory.....

- Large majority means a few "Remoaner" MPs can't derail her plans to forge ahead with the Hard Brexit that all right-thinking people want 

AND

- Large majority means a few Hard Brexit extremist MPs can't derail her plans to make sensible Soft Brexit compromises during the negotiations. (I retain a little naive hope this might be the plan)

 

I assume that's what Johnson means. I can see his point, though I'm not sure many people are expecting the second outcome.....though they might be proved wrong when we're looking over the cliff edge in 18 months time.

 

In the meantime, a large majority means the Tories can do what the hell they want for 5 years, right across the board: tax (note no promises on income tax/N.I.); pensions (note no promises on triple lock); austerity cuts; NHS part-privatisation etc.

Most importantly of all, they'll have carte blanche to decide which EU social, employment and environmental rights are retained in UK legislation......rather fewer than under EU legislation is my guess.

Brexit is Brexit under Tories be it hard or soft boiled.

 

The con is as you've put is a strong majority for the real purpose to call the election. To basically have the power to shift anything they want through legislation, and fast track the cherry picking of the NHS into private hands. People will might not normally vote for the Tories, who think this is all about Brexit, are about to get sensationally 'Trumped'.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

The calling of the election does plenty of things in May's favour (assuming a commanding win, which looks a given);

• Strengthens May's Brexit hand - both internally, and internationally. Gives her a mandate and ensures she's not hostage to a few MP's.
• Provides a greater breathing space around Brexit, allowing her to push a domestic schedule a little more as well.
• Also no longer tied to the 2015 manifesto commitments - she would have been pissed off at the manor of the NINO budget  reversal.
• Could damage Sturegons Independence Referendum 2 call, if the Conservatives win significant seats in Scotland (calling is also a calculated risk that they'd gain support from North of the border from Nationalists)
• The rumours of Corbyn resigning - she couldn't miss the opportunity to hammer Labour
• The economy... things were beginning looking a little ropey, but there will probably be a post election bounce.
• Takes focus away from the Tory election spending row.
• Allows her to make a free re-shuffle, with the bonus of some fresh MP's being available. 

There's possibly more too!

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, sphericalfox said:

Brexit is Brexit under Tories be it hard or soft boiled.

 

The con is as you've put is a strong majority for the real purpose to call the election. To basically have the power to shift anything they want through legislation, and fast track the cherry picking of the NHS into private hands. People will might not normally vote for the Tories, who think this is all about Brexit, are about to get sensationally 'Trumped'.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with your main point, but it still matters enormously whether the Brexit is hard or soft-boiled. I'm not clear whether they're planning on hard or soft (maybe they're so clueless about Brexit that they don't know themselves?).

 

I doubt whether we'll find out much about their Brexit plans during the election campaign, despite that supposedly being the reason for the election. I presume we'll find out in 18 months to 2 years time, when they reveal how they're going to wield their massive majority.

 

Damaging the Labour Party so badly that there's no viable alternative government for at least 10 years is probably also part of the raison d'être for the election. That might or might not work, though. If Labour avoids complete devastation in this election and regroups well under a new leader, they could rebound much more quickly than expected, as a lot of people voting Tory on 8th June will be disillusioned as hell with the outcome in 2 years time, whether that's a hard-boiled destruction of the British economy/society or a lot of soft-boiled compromises involving continued payments to the EU, compromises on single market/trade, continued high immigration etc.

[Guest]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

 

If anyone has a few mins that's a really interesting article on the use of data, psyops and circumventing laws in this and other countries