Guest Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 The sad reality is that the public were sold the best possible version of brexit - we'd get a trade deal, reduce immigration from the eu, make our own laws etc but the EU absolutely cannot have a country leave and be in a better position, no matter that this isn't really fair to that country. We stand to lose far, far more than the EU and they know it. Ultimately they can play hard ball and we'll either cave in (which will upset the brexiteers) or we'll commit national suicide (which could potentially become very nasty socially). Anybody that thinks they're not prepared to put us in that position just needs to look at Greece. Whilst it's fine to say this attitude is a reason to leave the club, the price we'll pay if we don't get a deal (and any deal will mean we've conceded in my opinion, I just cannot see any other way of achieving a deal) is going to be far, far worse than just grinning and bearing the annoying aspects of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 3 May 2017 Share Posted 3 May 2017 30 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I don't think that I'm any great intellectual, Izzy, just someone who's been a bit of a politics nerd for several decades. I also gas on too much, so I apologise if that intimidates. I agree that it's early days - and I'm glad that May seems to be publicly recognising how bad it could be if we cannot negotiate a deal, rather than indulge in the previous "no deal is no problem" bravado. My main criticism would be over her confrontational comments about turning the UK into a tax haven (implying that we'd undercut EU social standards and devastate its economy) and about maybe not co-operating so much on security (implying that we might not do the maximum to help prevent our neighbours avoid ISIS terror attacks). How anyone can complain about the EU leaking opinions about meetings or talking about bill payments after those comments, I don't know. Mainly, though, I think it's incredibly stupid to raise tensions by comments like that, increasing the risk of the negotiations turning into conflict and failure. Yes, the EU stands to lose from no deal being negotiated, but the UK stands to lose a hell of a lot more. Despite what anyone says about the Germans needing to sell their cars, we are in much the more vulnerable position in these negotiations....though failure suits nobody. The question about post-Brexit export boom sectors wasn't really addressed to you, but to those pro-Brexit posters who have repeatedly claimed that we'd be fine on WTO terms or that it doesn't matter if we don't negotiate a deal, as we'll be able to do alternative trade deals all around the world. If they're going to make confident claims like that, they should be able to say which sectors might suddenly boom and to which countries we'd greatly increase our exports. I'm genuinely interested in hearing from somebody who has any ideas about that. That's why I looked at different sectors myself a bit in my earlier post....and there are people who post on here who know more than me about business generally, or about particular business sectors. I share your severe doubts about Corbyn. Don't know whether I'll vote Labour yet; if I do, it will be in spite of Corbyn. I would never vote Tory (except v. BNP/UKIP). I do have some hope that secretly May intends to use her likely landslide to compromise with the EU, rather than to confront it....but I might be wrong about that. If she intends to be very combative, we're heading for utterly life-changing disaster as a country. Labour isn't run entirely by inadequates, though. Here's the election statement on Brexit by Keir Starmer, the party spokesman on Brexit. See what you think. I reckon it's excellent. I'd be a lot happier to have Starmer leading negotiations than either Corbyn or May: http://press.labour.org.uk/post/159971207604/keir-starmer-speech-on-labours-approach-to-brexit Thanks for the link to Starmers statement Alf. As someone who struggles with the complexity of politics in general, even I understood it I really do admire your passion for the debate Alf and I kind of wish I shared the same concerns that you do. But I've always been a political 'drifter' with no strong views or aligence either way and I struggle to get as emotionally involved as you or others do. I do find this thread particularly negative though and full of doom and gloom. Almost as if were beaten before we've kicked off and we're all going to hell in a hand cart because of Brexit. As an optimist and glass half full kind of chap, I always try to look for the positives but fail to see many on either side of this debate. I've always been a big believer in taking personal responsibility and working the best I can within whatever rules and regulations any government sets, so whatever the outcome, I'll just get on with it as I always have. I've really no wisdom or insights to offer this thread so I'll just lurk from the sidelines and continue to read posts from the likes of you and the others who really know their onions. Thanks again for sharing your views - it's quite educational and I probably learn more from reading you and others on FT than I do from the mainstream media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 This week has shown how much May underestimated how hard Brexit would be. Junker came around for a chin-wag and found out May wants Brexit to be like her eu home and justice affairs deal: tell the press you've opted out and then opt back into the important bits. She wants to cancel her Sky subscription but carry on watching Sky Sports essentially. Junker came out bemused, told Merkle, Merkle made some thinly veiled comment in a speech, and the next day City of London's multi million pound euro denominations gig is next to kaput according to the FT. Then May goes to the press and complains some people in Europe don't want Britain to have the best Brexit deal. No shit. They're a trade union. Unions look out for their members. We're no longer a member. They were our economic allies. We voted them into adversaries. If May is unsuitable to negotiate in any decent way can't she get that civil servant who quit a while ago to come back and do it? He seemed to know what he was talking about. I'm ruling out David Davis since he's David Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 And May decided to have an election during Brexit negotiations. They don't go well - since she massively underestimated them - and so she accuses the EU of meddling with the election. It's shameful watching her grasp for excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 10 hours ago, toddybad said: The sad reality is that the public were sold the best possible version of brexit - we'd get a trade deal, reduce immigration from the eu, make our own laws etc but the EU absolutely cannot have a country leave and be in a better position, no matter that this isn't really fair to that country. We stand to lose far, far more than the EU and they know it. Ultimately they can play hard ball and we'll either cave in (which will upset the brexiteers) or we'll commit national suicide (which could potentially become very nasty socially). Anybody that thinks they're not prepared to put us in that position just needs to look at Greece. Whilst it's fine to say this attitude is a reason to leave the club, the price we'll pay if we don't get a deal (and any deal will mean we've conceded in my opinion, I just cannot see any other way of achieving a deal) is going to be far, far worse than just grinning and bearing the annoying aspects of the EU. Why are we not focusing on the original lie, the entry into union in the first place. People were duped then, a common market was what they voted on. If they were told the truth about about a political union and transferring state powers we would never have been in this position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 3 hours ago, Strokes said: Why are we not focusing on the original lie, the entry into union in the first place. People were duped then, a common market was what they voted on. If they were told the truth about about a political union and transferring state powers we would never have been in this position. It's receiving no focus because it's irrelevant. We can only determine our future by looking at where we are now and thinking about where we want to go. The past is the past and doesn't impact on that decision. If you've voted Brexit as a way of fighting a 40 year old decision then you've very much missed the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudulike Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 3 hours ago, toddybad said: It's receiving no focus because it's irrelevant. We can only determine our future by looking at where we are now and thinking about where we want to go. The past is the past and doesn't impact on that decision. If you've voted Brexit as a way of fighting a 40 year old decision then you've very much missed the point. We can't learn from history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 2 minutes ago, Spudulike said: We can't learn from history Not that people can't, but they either won't or when they do they simply use what happened in history as an excuse to repeat/do bad stuff now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphericalfox Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 4 hours ago, Spudulike said: We can't learn from history You're kinda missing the point. Whether it was right to join 40 years ago doesn't affect whether leaving in 20xx is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 1 hour ago, sphericalfox said: Yeah let's dig up what leaders have said about the EU in the past. https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/720535511052455936 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphericalfox Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: Yeah let's dig up what leaders have said about the EU in the past 12 months. https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/720535511052455936 fixed it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 5 minutes ago, sphericalfox said: fixed it for you. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650162/corbyn-cover-up-past-deleting-eurosceptic-articles A bit more recent for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphericalfox Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 23 minutes ago, Strokes said: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650162/corbyn-cover-up-past-deleting-eurosceptic-articles A bit more recent for you. Yes, of course, that example is equally comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 37 minutes ago, Strokes said: Yeah let's dig up what leaders have said about the EU in the past. https://mobile.twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/720535511052455936 Completely consistent with what he said in the campaign. Jeremy insisted he wanted to see the EU reformed to more social and accountable institution and that jobs and workers rights were his first priority. If you can find a quote where JC actually insisted the UK should leave the EU like say, Tony Benn did, I'd be impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 18 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: Completely consistent with what he said in the campaign. Jeremy insisted he wanted to see the EU reformed to more social and accountable institution and that jobs and workers rights were his first priority. If you can find a quote where JC actually insisted the UK should leave the EU like say, Tony Benn did, I'd be impressed. I'm not saying he said we should leave, just that his views are being altered/watered down, in favour of his parties. He voted against joining the common market, he voted against signing the Lisbon treaty. demonstrate: July 2015 – “Brutal” “If the EU becomes a totally brutal organisation that treats every one of its member states in the way that the people of Greece have been treated at the moment, then I think it will lose a lot of support from a lot of people.” June 2015 – “Colonies of debt peonage” “[If] Greece leaves both the eurozone and the EU its future would be uncertain, but at least it could be its own. … There is no future for a usurious Europe that turns its smaller nations into colonies of debt peonage.” January 2015 – Undemocratic Public opposition to the EU’s TTIP treaty is “a cri de coeur for democracy and for the right of people to elect a Government who can decide what goes on in their country.” April 2013 – “Worst of all worlds” “Switzerland, which is not a member of the EU, has no problems integrating rail services with Germany, France and Italy, and I do not think that any other country should have any problems either. What we have is the worst of all worlds.” February 2011 – Human rights abuses “We have EU trade agreements with a number of countries that include a human rights clause that has not been enforced or effected. Is it not time for us to look again at the whole strategy for the region? May 2005 – “Simply crazy” It is morally wrong [to] pay farmers to over-produce… then use taxpayers’ money to buy the over-production, so it is already a double purchase, and it is then shipped at enormous public cost across the seas to be dumped as maize on African societies. … The practice is simply crazy and must be stopped.” October 2003 – Morally Unjustifiable “[W]e are now exporting 40 per cent of the world’s sugar and subsidising it to the tune of €500 per tonne. That is not justifiable in any moral or other sense. We are driving cane sugar producers in Africa and elsewhere out of business so that European sugar can be dumped on their markets.” May 1993 – Opposition to Maastricht “I am sure that [Labour MPs] will vote against the Maastricht treaty again tonight, primarily because it takes away from national Parliaments the power to set economic policy and hands it over to an unelected set of bankers” March 1993 – EU Army “[W]e are moving towards a common European defence and foreign policy. That being so, one must ask who proposes it, who controls it and what it is for? … Title V states that the objective of such a policy shall be “to safeguard the common values, fundamental interests and independence of the Union”. What exactly does that mean?” As part of the whitewashing of Mr Corbyn’s past stance on the EU, he has also deleted a number of blogs on his personal site which are critical of the EU. One, titled “The Plight of a Forgotten Land” included the following quotes: “The EU, to its shame, concluded a special trade agreement with Morocco for fishing rights that includes the waters off occupied Western Sarah. In doing so, it authorised the plunder of natural resources on a grand scale with no benefit at all the Saharawi people.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: I'm not saying he said we should leave, just that his views are being altered/watered down, in favour of his parties. He voted against joining the common market, he voted against signing the Lisbon treaty. Yep you're agreeing with me. Criticising the EU but never saying we should leave. Good stuff cheers bud. Meanwhile Theresa May is saying that leaving would be a threat to jobs and prosperity then not long later claiming that the EU itself is a threat to jobs and prosperity. Looks like May is the more dishonest one and the comparison to Corbyn is not justified. Glad we sorted that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 4 May 2017 Share Posted 4 May 2017 12 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: Yep you're agreeing with me. Criticising the EU but never saying we should leave. Good stuff cheers bud. Meanwhile Theresa May is saying that leaving would be a threat to jobs and prosperity then not long later claiming that the EU itself is a threat to jobs and prosperity. Looks like May is the more dishonest one and the comparison to Corbyn is not justified. Glad we sorted that one out. It's hard to be over critical because I agree with a lot of what he said over the EU, I just wish he would say it with such passion now. "The creation of the post of president is a triumph for the tenacity of the European long-sighters. The project has always been to create a huge free-market Europe, with ever-limiting powers for national parliaments and an increasingly powerful common foreign and security policy." "We should be very suspicious of the power of the agribusiness lobby to develop a cosy agreement between the EU and US which is then presented as a fait accompli to legislators on both sides of the Atlantic." Generally speaking Europe has much better environmental and recycling standards than the United States, which relies on market mechanisms to "regulate" these areas with woeful results. This could become important if regulations about acceptable emissions levels in cars, say, were deemed to interfere with the right of US car companies to trade freely in Europe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudulike Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 14 minutes ago, Spudulike said: Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker Don't really agree with this one. International language of most business, science, aviation and astronautics isn't going to go away that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 17 minutes ago, Spudulike said: Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker Well obviously. Firstly when there are no more representatives of the UK working in any of the 3 EU institutions why would they continue to make official communications in the language of its 19th most populous member state (Ireland)? No doubt they'll continue to use it simply because there'll still be more people who speak it than any other language plus it's kind of necessary for outside communications but I can definitely see the French who are notoriously zealous regarding their national tongue making a move for primacy in official proceedings. Secondly the French have an election on Sunday and he wants them all to vote for the pro-EU candidate so obviously he's going to pander to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 41 minutes ago, Spudulike said: Brexit: English language 'losing importance' - EU's Juncker Losing importance in Europe, not in general. It'll stay globally relevant, if for no reason other than the us attempting to speak it, but for intra-EU communications it'll be fairly low down when only one smaller member speaks it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxed Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 "Southend man in mobility scooter pulls gun on Polish pair and racially abuses them" http://www.essexlive.news/two-polish-men-in-southend-suffer-racial-abuse-at-gun-point-from-man-in-mobility-scooter/story-30312298-detail/story.html#bqhxe7JhLOj7IYwI.99 Nowt to worry about, nowt to worry about. Pulling a gun on Polish men is fine. Nothing to worry about. I bet Kap and his family have read this and are fine about it. The referendum hasn't given the radical fringe a shot of adrenaline. It's fine. It's fine. Nothing to worry about. The referendum hasn't embolded and enlarged the radical fringe. It's just remoaners spreading dirt again. It's fine. It's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 9 minutes ago, Foxxed said: "Southend man in mobility scooter pulls gun on Polish pair and racially abuses them" http://www.essexlive.news/two-polish-men-in-southend-suffer-racial-abuse-at-gun-point-from-man-in-mobility-scooter/story-30312298-detail/story.html#bqhxe7JhLOj7IYwI.99 Nowt to worry about, nowt to worry about. Pulling a gun on Polish men is fine. Nothing to worry about. I bet Kap and his family have read this and are fine about it. The referendum hasn't given the radical fringe a shot of adrenaline. It's fine. It's fine. Nothing to worry about. The referendum hasn't embolded and enlarged the radical fringe. It's just remoaners spreading dirt again. It's fine. It's fine. This is awful but the line "he then made off in the direction of the High Street" gave me a great mental image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 5 May 2017 Share Posted 5 May 2017 33 minutes ago, Foxxed said: "Southend man in mobility scooter pulls gun on Polish pair and racially abuses them" http://www.essexlive.news/two-polish-men-in-southend-suffer-racial-abuse-at-gun-point-from-man-in-mobility-scooter/story-30312298-detail/story.html#bqhxe7JhLOj7IYwI.99 Nowt to worry about, nowt to worry about. Pulling a gun on Polish men is fine. Nothing to worry about. I bet Kap and his family have read this and are fine about it. The referendum hasn't given the radical fringe a shot of adrenaline. It's fine. It's fine. Nothing to worry about. The referendum hasn't embolded and enlarged the radical fringe. It's just remoaners spreading dirt again. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah racist attacks never happens before we voted leave, shocking, I rescind my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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