Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, l444ry said:

 I just go by the fact check data from reputable sites. I certainly wouldn't go running to the Daily Mail for a factual account, that's for sure. 

Any chance of you actually answering any question I've asked? 

[Webbo]

53 minutes ago, MattP said:

He won a Nobel peace prize

 

Errrr....shouldn't we wait for the court case?

 

Why do you always seek to defend with "Whataboutism" - it's in almost every post from you now.

 

 

Yeah let's watch a meltdown by voting for someone who is totally mental. 

 

You are actually no better than a Trump loyalist Buce, it's almost laughable how you try and come over so high and mighty. Call for people who disagree with you to die, urge votes for bigots, then shout how cruel others are. Pathetic. 

We've had a 2 year melt down since the referendum. I can honestly say I'll accept any result, whether I like it or not.

[Guest MattP]

Just now, Webbo said:

We've had a 2 year melt down since the referendum. I can honestly say I'll accept any result, whether I like it or not.

Me too.

 

Democracy at its finest.

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

I'd say hard right rather than far-right. Far right us white supremacy, there are many non whites who agree with the populist right parties being elected. 

 

Happening for a variety of reasons, mainly austerity in Southern Europe, a shocking attempt at changing demographic without consent in Central Europe and Scandinavian and in Eastern Europe a pretty much sensible idea of looking at what is happening here and them deciding they don't want it.

Interesting, thanks for the answer.

 

IMO what is arising right now is white supremacy with a hint of religious fervour in places (sometimes disguised, sometimes not) and those non-white folks, though they're free to agree and disagree with who they wish, are possibly being duped and are going to get something of a nasty shock when the same people they back then turn round and say they're persona non grata in the country they're in and have to take a hike.

 

For their sake and for that of everyone else I really hope it doesn't come to that and I'm wrong on that one, though.

 

Regarding the reasons, I think we've discussed it being as a response to current policy before and had differing opinions on what kinds of response are proportionate and how responsibility is attributed so I don't think we need to cover that again here.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Interesting, thanks for the answer.

 

IMO what is arising right now is white supremacy with a hint of religious fervour in places (sometimes disguised, sometimes not) and those non-white folks, though they're free to agree and disagree with who they wish, are possibly being duped and are going to get something of a nasty shock when the same people they back then turn round and say they're persona non grata in the country they're in and have to take a hike.

 

For their sake and for that of everyone else I really hope it doesn't come to that and I'm wrong on that one, though.

 

Regarding the reasons, I think we've discussed it being as a response to current policy before and had differing opinions on what kinds of response are proportionate and how responsibility is attributed so I don't think we need to cover that again here.

We'll have to agree to disagree - I also think describing anyone who has a different opinion as being duped is silly, people of colour can be right-wing. You might find it weird but some are.

 

Do you think Raheem Kassam and Candace Owens are white supremacists? 

[l444ry]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

Any chance of you actually answering any question I've asked? 

I don't know and neither do you. One can only take a view honestly with facts.

Edited 16 August 2018 by l444ry

[Guest MattP]

Just now, l444ry said:

I don't know and neither do you. One can only make their mind up honestly with facts.

Did you miss the "in your opinion" bit?

 

A bit of honesty would be nice, just admit you like Corbyn and don't care what he does, it's far easier than thus ridiculous Trump style charade.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

We'll have to agree to disagree - I also think describing anyone who has a different opinion as being duped is silly, people of colour can be right-wing. You might find it weird but some are.

 

Do you think Raheem Kassam and Candace Owens are white supremacists? 

Like I said, I hope that I'm wrong and that it is a moderate right-wing that accepts people like Kassam and Owens within their organisation that is the basis of this rise, rather than a harder-right element that will simply use their views to get power and then turn on them.

[breadandcheese]

Corbyn complaining to the press regulator. Utterly shameless. Still, it plays into his martyrdom complex. A Trump play to his base.

 

 

 

 

[Strokes]

9 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Corbyn complaining to the press regulator. Utterly shameless. Still, it plays into his martyrdom complex. A Trump play to his base.

 

 

 

 

Fake news mate.

[Heathrow fox]

3 hours ago, MattP said:

So just to be clear if the Brexit and Science is cool you'll be happy to vote for an anti-semitic bigot? 

To call a bloke who has stood up for the oppressed his whole political life,a bigot is truly beyond me.I actually feel sorry for you

[breadandcheese]

6 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

To call a bloke who has stood up for the oppressed his whole political life,a bigot is truly beyond me.I actually feel sorry for you

How so. If he stands on platforms and invites antisemites without ever challenging them, what does that make him?

[TheUltimateWinner]

Patrick Stewart wrote this earlier

 

“I am not a politician and I am not a strategist, but I have a suspicion Jeremy believes a disastrous Brexit would benefit him politically, and, in all the chaos and confusion that would occur after the policy is implemented – in either a hard or a soft way, I might add – he sees himself taking power. It seems to me to be just plain wrong to play with the country’s future in this way.

 

“What Jeremy doesn’t appear to understand is that it would be the easiest thing in the world to attack the government on Brexit and to oppose it at every turn and to tear apart their arguments and expose it for what it is. There is, after all, nothing that is more opposed to basic Labour values than Brexit and I think just about everyone except him can now see that.”

 

Can't say I disagree

[leicsmac]

Random interwebs find. As an academic leftie, it does ring frustratingly true.

 

"the academic left: it's not my job to educate you, instead read this huge corpus of literature that suspiciously corresponds to what a high-end university education in the humanities and social sciences would give u, or navigate extremely complex social spaces that require highly-tuned social intelligence to survive their byzantine norms and conventions (also everyone hates everyone else and is ready to eat them alive for social capital)

 

the far right: here's my pamphlet on who is and is not a human, take ten and give one to all your friends, if you want to hear more hit me up any time."

 

 

[Heathrow fox]

29 minutes ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

Patrick Stewart wrote this earlier

 

“I am not a politician and I am not a strategist, but I have a suspicion Jeremy believes a disastrous Brexit would benefit him politically, and, in all the chaos and confusion that would occur after the policy is implemented – in either a hard or a soft way, I might add – he sees himself taking power. It seems to me to be just plain wrong to play with the country’s future in this way.

 

“What Jeremy doesn’t appear to understand is that it would be the easiest thing in the world to attack the government on Brexit and to oppose it at every turn and to tear apart their arguments and expose it for what it is. There is, after all, nothing that is more opposed to basic Labour values than Brexit and I think just about everyone except him can now see that.”

 

Can't say I disagree

If you can call imposing austerity measures on its members.Flooding Labour markets with cheap foreign workers,whilst giving more and more power to faceless unelected bureaucrats,basic Labour values.Then yes I agree too.

[st albans fox]

I don’t do politics on forums but I feel compelled to post that we are pretty fooked here and our near term future next five years at least  (mainly affecting the have nots because the haves will cope either way) is now going to be determined by bureaucrats in Brussels and hard brexiteers in the Tory party ...........  That’s wierd given that a major reason that the referendum was called is because the hard brexiteers in the Tory party are of the opinion that the bureaucrats in Brussels have too much influence in the running of our country ...............

 

as a singer once said ........... ‘it’s like rain on your wedding day’..........

 

Note that this is not a pro or anti brexit post, just an observation................

[Grebfromgrebland]

Does criticising or disagreeing with Jews / Israel and their actions make you an anti-Semite?

 

We're moving into very dangerous territory now where criticising actions which are deplorable can get you labelled antisemitic.

 

Similar to Canada questioning Saudi Arabia then Saudi exerting serious pressure back.

 

WTF is going on in this world at the minute we're at some kind of cross roads and and it looks like we're going to take the wrong turn. I mean who'd have thought Donald Trump, Putin, Ji, the Saudis and possibly Boris (!) Or Reese Mogg could all be in power at the same time?

 

If I was religious I'd say this is the start of a modern Armageddon. 

[Guest MattP]

9 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

To call a bloke who has stood up for the oppressed his whole political life,a bigot is truly beyond me.I actually feel sorry for you

 

10 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Does criticising or disagreeing with Jews / Israel and their actions make you an anti-Semite?

 

We're moving into very dangerous territory now where criticising actions which are deplorable can get you labelled antisemitic.

Nope. He can criticise Israel and it's policy all he wants. 

 

However as soon as you start giving platforms to holocaust deniers, continually mixing with anti-semitic speakers, laying wreaths at terrorists who murdered innocent Jews and organisations events that deliberately compare Israel to the Nazi's I think you start to leave little doubt.

 

He's even got his own MP's now calling him an anti-semite. I've spent the last two years saying he's just a bit dumb and naive rather than a bigot, but the mountain of evidence now suggests otherwise. 

Edited 17 August 2018 by MattP

[Sharpe's Fox]

9 hours ago, TheUltimateWinner said:

Patrick Stewart wrote this earlier

 

“I am not a politician and I am not a strategist, but I have a suspicion Jeremy believes a disastrous Brexit would benefit him politically, and, in all the chaos and confusion that would occur after the policy is implemented – in either a hard or a soft way, I might add – he sees himself taking power. It seems to me to be just plain wrong to play with the country’s future in this way.

 

“What Jeremy doesn’t appear to understand is that it would be the easiest thing in the world to attack the government on Brexit and to oppose it at every turn and to tear apart their arguments and expose it for what it is. There is, after all, nothing that is more opposed to basic Labour values than Brexit and I think just about everyone except him can now see that.”

 

Can't say I disagree

According to Patrick Stewart and other alt-Remainers having an ideologically pure Labour Party is more important than one that can actually win. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

organise events that deliberetely compare Israel to the Nazi's I think you start to leave little doubt.

The one with the Holocaust survivor? Another one of your bad Jews?

[breadandcheese]

19 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

The one with the Holocaust survivor? Another one of your bad Jews?

You mean the one on Holocaust memorial day. Where a Holocaust survivor who disagreed with the view was asked to leave by Corbyn?

 

Back in Soviet times, if a Jew toed the line and agreed to what the ruling party said, they were acceptable. They were fine. They were a comrade

 

The moment a Jew raised a dispute or disagreed, then they were identified as a Jew rather than a comrade. They were suspected of nefarious activities rather than just disagreeing.

 

This is the anti-Semitism that we see in the hard left today.  When Jon Lansman challenged Corbyn's appointee for the post of Labour general secretary, he was accused of being a Zionist infiltrator by some on the hard left.  When he toes the line, he is a comrade.

[Sharpe's Fox]

13 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

You mean the one on Holocaust memorial day. Where a Holocaust survivor who disagreed with the view was asked to leave by Corbyn?

 

Back in Soviet times, if a Jew toed the line and agreed to what the ruling party said, they were acceptable. They were fine. They were a comrade

 

The moment a Jew raised a dispute or disagreed, then they were identified as a Jew rather than a comrade. They were suspected of nefarious activities rather than just disagreeing.

 

This is the anti-Semitism that we see in the hard left today.  When Jon Lansman challenged Corbyn's appointee for the post of Labour general secretary, he was accused of being a Zionist infiltrator by some on the hard left.  When he toes the line, he is a comrade.

Its the other way round mate. Whenever a Jew is on the  left and oppose Israel they become bad Jews and can be disowned by what you call "the mainstream Jewish community". Being a leftist is born from your belief but Jewishness is a unique part of these peoples identity. Being shunned by your ancestral community is a major psychological shock to some Jews who don't conform and can cause great damage and is much worse than a political disagreement within the left. 

Edited 17 August 2018 by Sharpe's Fox

[Guest MattP]

Some Jews voted for the Nazis.

 

Anyway here's Big Rod on point again.....

 

The crowd were singing ‘Oh, Jeremy Corbyn’ again, at a festival in Cornwall, the words appended to a riff by the White Stripes which I once liked but now find a little nauseating. Vacuous, dimbo, middle-class millennials and — worse — their stupid, indulgent parents, all waving their hands in the air for Jezza. Meanwhile, the rest of us were trying to work out if Jeremy is a sort of even more retarded Forrest Gump and thus the most stupid man ever to lead a political party in the history of our nation, or something altogether more sinister. I had always cleaved to the former point of view — and this, indeed, seems to be the line trotted out daily by his office: you have to understand that he knows not what he does, this is not anti-Semitism, just the actions of a creature with the IQ of krill.  I am not so sure. I think it’s a bit of both. Sinister krill, then.

 

The latest evidence of his apparently depthless anti-Semitism came in a photograph of him performing the hand salute of the Muslim Brotherhood by the side of some grinning Muslim bloke. That’s the same Muslim Brotherhood which demanded the deaths of all Jews (not Israelis) at a demo in Cairo in 2011 and is proscribed as an Islamist terrorist organisation by several Muslim countries — as well as Russia. Four fingers held aloft, thumb bent inwards to the palm: that genial Islamo-fascist Recep Erdogan does it every now and then, when he’s feeling chipper.

 

You have the advantage over me in that, at the time of writing, this photo has not made it into the mainstream media and so I do not know the excuse trotted out by the Labour party (I’ve asked: had no response). Arthritis? A strained tendon in the thumb occasioned by strenuous jam-making? willy puller’s cramp? Any, all three. But certainly he didn’t mean to indicate that he was in favour of this repulsive organisation. Heaven forefend. He knows not what he does.

 

Much as it was with the wreath-laying in Tunisia, near the graves of Black September terrorists who murdered 11 Jewish athletes and a German police officer at the Munich Olympics in 1972. Didn’t know what he was doing. Wasn’t actually praying, just trying to look respectful. Didn’t know anything about the terrorist graves. Then a picture appears of him, uh, holding a wreath. Maybe he thought it was just some ad hoc Palestinian flower-arranging? And then, having overcome the memory lapse and after even the ludicrous BBC starts reporting the story, oh yes, he fesses up, yes OK. ‘I was present when it was laid. I don’t think I was actually involved in it.’ What? What does that mean? You were holding the wreath, you moron.

 

But the same kind of excuse is trotted out every time. Jeremy had not known that a Facebook group of which he was a member had spewed out vile anti-Semitic propaganda. How did he not know? He had not meant to call the genocidal terrorists Hamas ‘friends’. When writing in approval of a grotesquely anti-Semitic mural for a wall in some Christ-forsaken London borough — oh, sorry, I didn’t look at the painting closely enough. His only recourse is to portray himself each time as an absolute idiot.

 

And yet the Momentum groupies swallow it whole, being possessed — one suspects — of the same strand of committed anti–Semitism as their leader. And these stories are cropping up at a rate of one every couple of days, Jezza’s past coming back to haunt him — and always met by the same response. By the time you read this it will probably emerge that he was caught on CCTV in 2014 putting a brick through a synagogue window and running away screaming ‘Intifada!’ Excuse no. 1: ‘It wasn’t me. This is fake news!’ Excuse no. 2: ‘I did put the brick through the window, in order to check that the glass was secure from possible attack by anti-Semites.’

 

The clincher, of course, comes in his ad hominem explanation for all of these offensive and revelatory transgressions. Sometimes, in the search for peace, it is necessary for one to mix with people who perhaps hold unsavoury views, who may themselves not always have been pristine vis-à-vis murdering innocent people. To achieve peace, we must engage in dialogue. The same kind of utter cant that the man came out with to explain away his appearance at an event to honour IRA terrorists and his decades spent fellating the leaders of Sinn Fein/IRA. Well, on the face of it, sure, perhaps. Although laying wreaths for murderers and doing the ol’ Muslim Brotherhood hand gesture might be considered overstepping the limits of a Dialogue For Peace.

 

But what Corbyn has never done is meet with the other side. He will not meet with the Israeli government, ever. He has not done so. The last Labour party trip to Israel commended itself for not meeting a single figure within the Israeli government. Corbyn himself declined even to meet Benjamin Netanyahu when he visited Britain. So the dialogue for peace stuff is a downright, absolute lie. He is an anti-Semite who, furthermore, is happy to suck up to whatever foul ideology is opposed to this country’s interests or the interests of western democracy. Cuba, Venezuela, Soviet Russia, Black September, Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA. You name a crock of purulent, murderous, anti-democratic, racist shit — and he’ll be for it.

 

Oh — and the BBC. Nice of you, auntie, to cover the story of the wreath-laying two days later than everyone else did. I have a screen shot of BBC News online on the day the papers were carrying the Corbyn story. As both Guido Fawkes and later the Daily Mail pointed out, there were no fewer than six stories about Boris Johnson making a joke about letterboxes and none at all about Jezza. Get rid of the licence fee, now. The level of bias has become absurd.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Random interwebs find. As an academic leftie, it does ring frustratingly true.

 

"the academic left: it's not my job to educate you, instead read this huge corpus of literature that suspiciously corresponds to what a high-end university education in the humanities and social sciences would give u, or navigate extremely complex social spaces that require highly-tuned social intelligence to survive their byzantine norms and conventions (also everyone hates everyone else and is ready to eat them alive for social capital)

 

the far right: here's my pamphlet on who is and is not a human, take ten and give one to all your friends, if you want to hear more hit me up any time."

 

 

This is a bit 'strawman' as people like this phrase... Why are we comparing the 'academic left' with the 'far right' surely we should be comparing like for like if we are rational?

 

The far left are as extreme and as dangerous as the far right, what is concerning is that the far left seem to have developed some kind of acceptability amongst normally rational and sane people. This is why dangerous fools like Corbyn can come this close to getting into power. 

 

I am sorry but I do not see the far right being a huge problem, they may get more votes due to peoples perceived views of failure of the 'ruling elite' but they will never gain too much traction due to the natural human decency of the wide majority of the population.

 

The far left on the other hand I'm not so sure, educated normally decent people seem to think it is acceptable to vote for horrible, dishonest leaders like Corbyn. If he can lead this web of deceit now, what on earth would he do if he got into power? 

[breadandcheese]

21 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Its the other way round mate. Whenever a Jew is on the  left and oppose Israel they become bad Jews and can be disowned by what you call "the mainstream Jewish community". Being a leftist is born from your belief but Jewishness is a unique part of these peoples identity. Being shunned by your ancestral community is a major psychological shock to some Jews who don't conform and can cause great damage and is much worse than a political disagreement within the left. 

 

You are referring to very fringe elements of the Jewish community. Jewish Voice for Labour are looked down upon because they are providing cover for the anti-Semitism within the hard left. They are the "good" comrades who provide the opportunity for those on the hard left to say there is no problem, that is a Blairist putsch or a Zionist orchestrated event.  There is clearly a problem of anti-Semitism, so it's no wonder the majority of the Jewish community disagree with them.

 

With regards Israel, there are many differing opinions, on how Israel behaves. But very little disagreement on whether Israel has a right to exist.

 

With regards being shunned by your ancestral community causing major psychological shock, pull the other one. Anyone taking a massive contrary view on some pretty fundamental issues here are always going to take flak and they'll know that. If it is a major psychological shock and I've underestimated it, then maybe it hardens their opposition and provides cover for anti-semites within the hard left?