Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

This is a bit 'strawman' as people like this phrase... Why are we comparing the 'academic left' with the 'far right' surely we should be comparing like for like if we are rational?

 

The far left are as extreme and as dangerous as the far right, what is concerning is that the far left seem to have developed some kind of acceptability amongst normally rational and sane people. This is why dangerous fools like Corbyn can come this close to getting into power. 

 

I am sorry but I do not see the far right being a huge problem, they may get more votes due to peoples perceived views of failure of the 'ruling elite' but they will never gain too much traction due to the natural human decency of the wide majority of the population.

 

The far left on the other hand I'm not so sure, educated normally decent people seem to think it is acceptable to vote for horrible, dishonest leaders like Corbyn. If he can lead this web of deceit now, what on earth would he do if he got into power? 

I'm not entirely sure that the point of that post was clear.

 

The point is that the far right makes itself much more accessible to the guy in the street because they make the effort to engage people and answer their questions, and don't make them think that they're dumb for asking and then turn around and eat each other at the first opportunity over perceived failure of ideological purity, like a lot of the academic left do. (Even as an academic leftie myself I see that often.)

 

Which leads rather neatly into answering the rest of your post - the far right are more of a problem than the far left right now IMO precisely because they have that sense of unity and engagement that various parts of the left simply do not have. It's not a far-left tankie that's got an Internet news network with millions of followers and their man in the White House, and it sure as hell isn't a tankie who's got hundreds of thousands of people petitioning for his release over an alleged "miscarriage of justice".

 

The "natural decency of the wide majority of the population" didn't stop the far right from practising its classical form of white supremacy in lots of places in the past, why would it start now?

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm not entirely sure that the point of that post was clear.

 

The point is that the far right makes itself much more accessible to the guy in the street because they make the effort to engage people and answer their questions, and don't make them think that they're dumb for asking and then turn around and eat each other at the first opportunity over perceived failure of ideological purity, like a lot of the academic left do. (Even as an academic leftie myself I see that often.)

 

Which leads rather neatly into answering the rest of your post - the far right are more of a problem than the far left right now IMO precisely because they have that sense of unity and engagement that various parts of the left simply do not have. It's not a far-left tankie that's got an Internet news network with millions of followers and their man in the White House, and it sure as hell isn't a tankie who's got hundreds of thousands of people petitioning for his release over an alleged "miscarriage of justice".

 

The "natural decency of the wide majority of the population" didn't stop the far right from practising its classical form of white supremacy in lots of places in the past, why would it start now?

In teems of our country, the hard left is currently polling at 35-40%. The hard right isn't polling at 10%.

 

It isn't the right we need to be concerned about on these shores.

 

I mean this is the current shadow chancellor.

 

 

Edited 17 August 2018 by MattP

[Sharpe's Fox]

20 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

You are referring to very fringe elements of the Jewish community. Jewish Voice for Labour are looked down upon because they are providing cover for the anti-Semitism within the hard left. They are the "good" comrades who provide the opportunity for those on the hard left to say there is no problem, that is a Blairist putsch or a Zionist orchestrated event.  There is clearly a problem of anti-Semitism, so it's no wonder the majority of the Jewish community disagree with them.

 

With regards Israel, there are many differing opinions, on how Israel behaves. But very little disagreement on whether Israel has a right to exist.

 

With regards being shunned by your ancestral community causing major psychological shock, pull the other one. Anyone taking a massive contrary view on some pretty fundamental issues here are always going to take flak and they'll know that. If it is a major psychological shock and I've underestimated it, then maybe it hardens their opposition and provides cover for anti-semites within the hard left?

It’s unbelievable that you would dismiss what some of the abuse some Jews go through when they are involved in left activism and it in my opinion ignores the historical subtleties of the Jewish people who have had to group together for safety throughout several horrifying experiences. To be effectively expelled from such a tight knit community for expressing an political opinion causes great distress to leftists. If you want to carry on using the argument of Jeremy Corbyns ‘useful Jewish idiots’ then carry on but in my opinion you are spilling into expressing a grossly racist view.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

In teems of our country, the hard left is currently polling at 35-40%. The hard right isn't polling at 10%.

 

It isn't the right we need to be concerned about on these shores.

When an authoritarian left movement in the UK (and I'm not sure that the current Labour party as a whole actually qualifies as authoritarian btw) actually have any real power to set policy without falling out among themselves about it then feel free to be concerned.

 

Until then, there's an increasing populist movement disaffected with the EU and wanting a new hard-right party to vote for here, Trump in the White House (though more the Repub legislature across the US more than him), Orban in Hungary, the AFD in Germany, the "Swedish Democrats" in Sweden, and I'm pretty sure Ms Le Pen isn't going to just lay down either. (Of course, only the first of those has any real power to speak of either.)

[breadandcheese]

1 minute ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

It’s unbelievable that you would dismiss what some of the abuse some Jews go through when they are involved in left activism and it in my opinion ignores the historical subtleties of the Jewish people who have had to group together for safety throughout several horrifying experiences. To be effectively expelled from such a tight knit community for expressing an political opinion causes great distress to leftists. If you want to carry on using the argument of Jeremy Corbyns ‘useful Jewish idiots’ then carry on but in my opinion you are spilling into expressing a grossly racist view.

And tell me, what makes you so distinguished on the historical subtleties of the Jewish people? Because for one thing, I am nowhere near a "grossly racist view".  The fringe elements within the Jewish community are angering a lot within the Jewish community because they are providing cover for anti-semites.  I point to the Jon Lansman example, of when he dared to put himself forward as a possible General Secretary, against the Corbyn apointee, he was met with anti-semitic abuse from the members of the hard left.

[Sharpe's Fox]

5 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

And tell me, what makes you so distinguished on the historical subtleties of the Jewish people? Because for one thing, I am nowhere near a "grossly racist view".  The fringe elements within the Jewish community are angering a lot within the Jewish community because they are providing cover for anti-semites.  I point to the Jon Lansman example, of when he dared to put himself forward as a possible General Secretary, against the Corbyn apointee, he was met with anti-semitic abuse from the members of the hard left.

When you use that sort of language; “mainstream”, “fringe” you are in danger of characterising an entire ethnicity with a single political ideology and divergence from that viewpoint as an attack the community. That is the sort of mistake many antisemites on the left have made. Don’t fall into it yourself. Its OK to do it with people in a political party as you have done as the left is shifting and varied force but don’t do it with Jews.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

In teems of our country, the hard left is currently polling at 35-40%. The hard right isn't polling at 10%.

 

It isn't the right we need to be concerned about on these shores.

 

I mean this is the current shadow chancellor.

 

 

 

This makes uncomfortable viewing for someone who is very centralist like me. I have absolutely no allegiance to either major party and I would be 100% open to voting for either at the next election. However I find it very hard to get on board with Labour at the moment since they have moved further to the left and I find McDonnell in particular very unsettling. 

 

In my opinion Labour won't attract votes from people like me while they just scream "far right" at everyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. Someone more centralist and vaguely likeable would walk all over the mess that is the Tory party at the moment and would most likely get my vote. 

[breadandcheese]

54 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

When you use that sort of language; “mainstream”, “fringe” you are in danger of characterising an entire ethnicity with a single political ideology and divergence from that viewpoint as an attack the community. That is the sort of mistake many antisemites on the left have made. Don’t fall into it yourself. Its OK to do it with people in a political party as you have done as the left is shifting and varied force but don’t do it with Jews.

 

That's simply not true.  A mainstream view is exactly that.   A fringe view is exactly that. The danger is either:

 

- meeting an individual Jewish person and assuming they have a particularly political belief because the majority of Jewish people believe a particular political belief.  

- assuming that a Jewish person's political view is because they are Jewish.

 

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

This makes uncomfortable viewing for someone who is very centralist like me. I have absolutely no allegiance to either major party and I would be 100% open to voting for either at the next election. However I find it very hard to get on board with Labour at the moment since they have moved further to the left and I find McDonnell in particular very unsettling. 

 

In my opinion Labour won't attract votes from people like me while they just scream "far right" at everyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. Someone more centralist and vaguely likeable would walk all over the mess that is the Tory party at the moment and would most likely get my vote. 

What’s stopping you supporting the Lib Dem’s sol?

[Sol thewall Bamba]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

What’s stopping you supporting the Lib Dem’s sol?

Nothing to be fair, they do very well in my area. 

[Strokes]

Just now, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Nothing to be fair, they do very well in my area. 

Fair enough, you didn’t mention them so I just wondered.

[urban.spaceman]

18 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

This makes uncomfortable viewing for someone who is very centralist like me. I have absolutely no allegiance to either major party and I would be 100% open to voting for either at the next election. However I find it very hard to get on board with Labour at the moment since they have moved further to the left and I find McDonnell in particular very unsettling. 

 

In my opinion Labour won't attract votes from people like me while they just scream "far right" at everyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. Someone more centralist and vaguely likeable would walk all over the mess that is the Tory party at the moment and would most likely get my vote. 

I think Labour started to properly lose me when Brown was caught on the microphone referring to that “bigoted woman” after she asked a very reasonable question about where all these Eastern Europeans were coming from (Eastern Europe Gillian). 

If you can’t even have a decent, civilised discussion with the Prime Minister about immigration without being slandered as a bigot, what are you supposed to do?

 

8 years later and identity politics has just worse and worse, dumber and dumber. I can’t see myself voting for Labour again especially with Corbyn in charge. 

[lifted*fox]

oooooohhhh the scary hard leftttttt

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

oooooohhhh the scary hard leftttttt

 

Ooooohhh scary hard right. The reality is that both camps are equally demented. 

[Guest MattP]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/greece-warns-no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-country-financial-political/

 

Could do with a bit of infighting.

Edited 17 August 2018 by MattP

[Strokes]

24 minutes ago, MattP said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/greece-warns-no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-country-financial-political/

 

Could do with a bit of infighting.

 

Could you copy and paste matt, I thinks it’s geo locked as I can’t sign in and read currently.

[Kopfkino]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Could you copy and paste matt, I thinks it’s geo locked as I can’t sign in and read currently.

 

I'm sure it will be copied from the Guardian soon, surely, no?

[Guest MattP]

20 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Could you copy and paste matt, I thinks it’s geo locked as I can’t sign in and read currently.

Greece has warned it will need more financial aid from Brussels in a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario, raising the spectre of bitter EU in-fighting over money. 

In a move that hands potential leverage to British negotiators, Athens has warned that the financial fallout from a no-deal Brexit would leave the country facing “increased financial and political instability” if there was a shortfall in the EU budget up to 2020.

The warnings in a Greek government working paper point to the potential backlash that would be caused by a British crashout which would leave an immediate £10bn-a-year black hole in EU finances.

Dominic Raab, the new Brexit secretary, warned last month that the £40bn so-called ‘Brexit bill’ will not be paid out if the European Union fails to agree a trade deal with Britain.

The EU’s budget commissioner has warned that Europe will need to find an extra £20bn a year after Brexit if it wants to plug the gap left by the ending of UK financial contributions and invest in ambitious new plans for defence and border protection.

Although Brussels remains adamant it is prepared for a ‘no deal’ Brexit, the Greek warnings point to the pressures poorer member states would faced if the UK decided to go for a clean-break Brexit.

 

“This definitely plays into the UK’s hands as if there is no withdrawal agreement then there will be no financial settlement, which means the EU doesn’t get its money,” said Pieter Cleppe, the Brussels chief of the think tank Open Europe.

“The EU is actually facing two holes in their budget: the hole created by no future UK payments, and also the hole of promises made to increase spending in policy areas such as expanding [EU border agency Frontex].

“The EU has so far only proposed modest spending cuts, so there are big divisions that are likely to escalate in a major row in the future.”

Greece's plea for special treatment comers after it was forced to accept brutal austerity measures from the EU in the wake of the debt crisis, slashing pensions by up to 40 per cent and whittling down spending on healthcare, education and social security.

"In the event this option is chosen by the EU, Greece should seek a special agreement with the EU and EU Member States to reduce its Brexit Bill as Greece would be unable to finance this through national funding which could result in increased financial and political instability," wrote Oliver Mas, Brexit adviser to Greece's rural areas and food department.  

 

 

The EU imposed brutal austerity measures on Greece on condition of a 326bn euro (£292bn) bailout after the economy imploded in 2009 following the debt crisis.

Though the European Commission gave the green light for the austerity measures to end this summer, Athens now fears Brexit could plunge the country back into economic turmoil.

However, the EU has insisted that it will not bow to pressure from individual member states, as well as Britain, to permit any deal that would undermine the bloc’s rules and regulations.

“The EU27 believe that the costs of conceding to the UK and giving it a sweetheart deal would be of greater danger to the single market and to the European project than the gap in the EU budget itself,” said Agata Gostynska-Jakubowska, a senior fellow at the European Centre for Reform.

Edited 17 August 2018 by MattP
Altered size of text

[Guest MattP]

Sorry that was done on my phone

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Greece has warned it will need more financial aid from Brussels in a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario, raising the spectre of bitter EU in-fighting over money. 

In a move that hands potential leverage to British negotiators, Athens has warned that the financial fallout from a no-deal Brexit would leave the country facing “increased financial and political instability” if there was a shortfall in the EU budget up to 2020.

The warnings in a Greek government working paper point to the potential backlash that would be caused by a British crashout which would leave an immediate £10bn-a-year black hole in EU finances.

Dominic Raab, the new Brexit secretary, warned last month that the £40bn so-called ‘Brexit bill’ will not be paid out if the European Union fails to agree a trade deal with Britain.

The EU’s budget commissioner has warned that Europe will need to find an extra £20bn a year after Brexit if it wants to plug the gap left by the ending of UK financial contributions and invest in ambitious new plans for defence and border protection.

Although Brussels remains adamant it is prepared for a ‘no deal’ Brexit, the Greek warnings point to the pressures poorer member states would faced if the UK decided to go for a clean-break Brexit.

 

“This definitely plays into the UK’s hands as if there is no withdrawal agreement then there will be no financial settlement, which means the EU doesn’t get its money,” said Pieter Cleppe, the Brussels chief of the think tank Open Europe.

“The EU is actually facing two holes in their budget: the hole created by no future UK payments, and also the hole of promises made to increase spending in policy areas such as expanding [EU border agency Frontex].

“The EU has so far only proposed modest spending cuts, so there are big divisions that are likely to escalate in a major row in the future.”

Greece's plea for special treatment comers after it was forced to accept brutal austerity measures from the EU in the wake of the debt crisis, slashing pensions by up to 40 per cent and whittling down spending on healthcare, education and social security.

"In the event this option is chosen by the EU, Greece should seek a special agreement with the EU and EU Member States to reduce its Brexit Bill as Greece would be unable to finance this through national funding which could result in increased financial and political instability," wrote Oliver Mas, Brexit adviser to Greece's rural areas and food department.  

 

 

The EU imposed brutal austerity measures on Greece on condition of a 326bn euro (£292bn) bailout after the economy imploded in 2009 following the debt crisis.

Though the European Commission gave the green light for the austerity measures to end this summer, Athens now fears Brexit could plunge the country back into economic turmoil.

However, the EU has insisted that it will not bow to pressure from individual member states, as well as Britain, to permit any deal that would undermine the bloc’s rules and regulations.

“The EU27 believe that the costs of conceding to the UK and giving it a sweetheart deal would be of greater danger to the single market and to the European project than the gap in the EU budget itself,” said Agata Gostynska-Jakubowska, a senior fellow at the European Centre for Reform.

 

Wait, mods can edit other people’s posts?! 

 

Where can I apply?

[Sharpe's Fox]

Anyone seen Rory Stewart going around today? Bloke has got balls what a top man.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Anyone seen Rory Stewart going around today? Bloke has got balls what a top man.

He seems quite sincere and driven. Can’t say I knew much about him until today.

[Brizzle Fox]

2 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Anyone seen Rory Stewart going around today? Bloke has got balls what a top man.

This guy is the real deal. He is what a politician should be.  I'm sure it won't catch on....honesty, integrity etc. Nah.

[Guest MattP]

Big Nige is back.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/time-has-come-teach-political-class-lessonim-back-fighting-real/

[The Guvnor]

15 hours ago, MattP said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/17/greece-warns-no-deal-brexit-would-plunge-country-financial-political/

 

Could do with a bit of infighting.

 

Greece for years had a black economy and inevitably it  bit their arse. It does make you wonder what type of scrutiny  Countries with a history of this type of Economy have before being accepted to join.. The EU fcuked up certainly with that one.

The EU are desperate to prevent one of the 27 leaving as it would be a sign of abject failure , (the massive bail out from Germany may have something to do with it as well) but  I wouldn't be surprised if Greece do opt for indepedance in the near future.