Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Foxin_mad]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I agree with large parts of that, and the tiniest part of me has some sympathy for May - she was always going to be in a no win situation. 

 

But I also think it should be put to the electorate that this is the best we can do and are you sure you still want to leave. 

I think you have a point. Maybe a vote on the options:

 

Remain

Hard Brexit 

May Deal

 

What is not helpful at this point is for the Euro sceptic Tories of the Labour party to pretend there is an alternative deal. There is not, the EU will not accept anything else, that much is clear. If we want to be out of the EU in 'name' and protect jobs and stability in the short and long term, this is the only option. If we want to stay in then great. 

 

I personally feel that a hard Brexit is not in the interests of the British public in general, what I can respect is that May also has this opinion, she has achieved on the face of it a good deal given what she has to work with. Her speech yesterday I felt was good, she has tied to move this forward in the only way she can and she is in touch with the electorate in that most people want to move this on, we are sick of the fighting we just want it to be dealt with. For Brexit voters surely the fact that we are out at least means we can negotiate our future relationship going forward? This is a temporary measure whilst we continue to negotiate? We have to consider that along with peoples changing opinion, that 48% of the electorate did not want Brexit anyway, so surely we have to compromise to meet the needs of every person in the country?

[davieG]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I think you have a point. Maybe a vote on the options:

 

Remain

Hard Brexit 

May Deal

You'd be splitting the leave vote.

[Bobby Hundreds]

4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I think you have a point. Maybe a vote on the options:

 

Remain

Hard Brexit 

May Deal

 

 

 

Add in Labour pie in the sky deal and ERG pie in the sky deal too.

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, davieG said:

You'd be splitting the leave vote.

 

Any option would presumably have to obtain 50%+ of the vote.

 

Either 2 votes on the ballot: 1) Leave v. Remain; 2) May's Deal v. No Deal, if Leave wins the first vote

Or a single transferable vote: 3 options (May's Deal, No Deal, Remain), vote 1 and 2 for favourite & second favourite options; if no option has 50%, votes for least popular option are transferred between the other 2?

[Izzy]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Then, if there is some sort of a divorce deal agreed, we spend the next 5-10 years haggling over the details of the future EU-UK relationship....with the long-term future of the Irish border still an issue.

 

I had to find the old quote by Churchill, post-WW1: "The whole map of Europe has been changed … but as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again" 

 

Anyway, lots to talk about as, regardless of outcome, the Brexit debate continues for the rest of all our lives.....specially dedicated to @Izzy Muzzett

 

 

 

I love you @Alf Bentley and in fact, I love you all 

 

Despite the so called 'mess' and 'shambles' we find ourselves in with Brexit, I've never been more proud to be British.

 

I firmly believe that all the current division, debate and disagreement comes from a genuine place of passion and wanting to do the right thing for ourselves, our children and our country (and also driven by an element of fear as previously mentioned)

 

I'm sure there's the odd politician who is motivated by personal gain, but I believe most genuinely want to serve their country in the best way they can. 

 

I reckon this whole process might ultimately bring us together and make us stronger you know. We should never underestimate the resolve, determination, will, creativity and resourcefulness of the British people. We are a strong and intelligent nation and with our backs to the wall we'll sort it out.

 

Call me naive, I don't mind. Time we all worked together for the greater good I say 

[The Doctor]

On 15/11/2018 at 10:50, MattP said:

This is in the event of a No Deal isn't it? No one is still advocating that aside from a couple of extremely hardcore Eurosceptics.

People might not be advocating it, but when the Eurosceptics are shooting down every unicorn they're offered because it's mane isn't as fluffy as they wanted, it's what we'll end up with.

Edited 16 November 2018 by The Doctor

[Alf Bentley]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I love you @Alf Bentley and in fact, I love you all 

 

Despite the so called 'mess' and 'shambles' we find ourselves in with Brexit, I've never been more proud to be British.

 

I firmly believe that all the current division, debate and disagreement comes from a genuine place of passion and wanting to do the right thing for ourselves, our children and our country (and also driven by an element of fear as previously mentioned)

 

I'm sure there's the odd politician who is motivated by personal gain, but I believe most genuinely want to serve their country in the best way they can. 

 

I reckon this whole process might ultimately bring us together and make us stronger you know. We should never underestimate the resolve, determination, will, creativity and resourcefulness of the British people. We are a strong and intelligent nation and with our backs to the wall we'll sort it out.

 

Call me naive, I don't mind. Time we all worked together for the greater good I say 

 

 

I think we're all a bunch of ignorant, pig-headed arseholes who'll carry on arguing, fighting and fvcking everything up forever more......but don't let me dilute your optimism! 

 

As I think someone said, whatever happens we get on with the hand we're dealt (while complaining about other people's hands, abusing the dealer etc.).

[The Horse's Mouth]

As someone who voted remain I want the hardest brexit going now 

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

As someone who voted remain I want the hardest brexit going now 

 

Yep. 

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face is always a good decision. 

[purpleronnie]

Even though I predicted a no deal in July, I actually think she might somehow get this deal through.  She'll need to turn to Labour for help and maybe they'll extend the olive branch to save us crashing out?

 

Remember when Mrs may claimed a no deal is better than a bad deal? 

[The Horse's Mouth]

13 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Even though I predicted a no deal in July, I actually think she might somehow get this deal through.  She'll need to turn to Labour for help and maybe they'll extend the olive branch to save us crashing out?

 

Remember when Mrs may claimed a no deal is better than a bad deal? 

Is interesting how she peddled that for months but now it's any deal is better than no deal

[FoxNotFox]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Or a single transferable vote: 3 options (May's Deal, No Deal, Remain), vote 1 and 2 for favourite & second favourite options; if no option has 50%, votes for least popular option are transferred between the other 2?

Ah, a Maine style vote (US midterms)! 

 

Curious, because there (as I recall it) the candidate who got the most votes (the Republican?) didn't get enough (to pass the post) and so could well end up losing due to vote transfer. In that there's a greater vote against him than for him, the vote against him loosely interpreted as 'anybody BUT him'

 

That said, I might be in favour of such a vote. 50% or more for any option wins it hands down with no vote transfer needed. Less than 50%, then the 3rd placed option drops out and it's votes are transferred according to voters 2nd choice. I've a sneaking suspicion it'd cause all manner of arguments though, and I can see there is a in-built bias somewhere... I just haven't thought it through enough yet to see it!

Edited 16 November 2018 by FoxNotFox

[Countryfox]

3 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

 

I'm sure there's the odd politician who is motivated by personal gain, but I believe most genuinely want to serve their country in the best way they can. 

 

Yep, the odd one ...   or two ...   motivated by personal gain ....    and the odd kiddy fiddler or two (or more) ...   and the odd one that conspires to murder ....   (aaaaa-thorpey-choooo !!) ...     and the odd one or two that spy for other countries ...      and lets not forget Vaz !!!      

[The Fox Covert]

32 minutes ago, purpleronnie said:

Even though I predicted a no deal in July, I actually think she might somehow get this deal through.  She'll need to turn to Labour for help and maybe they'll extend the olive branch to save us crashing out?

 

Remember when Mrs may claimed a no deal is better than a bad deal? 

This really needs to happen. Although Labour would not at first sight would be interested in helping to get the Tories out of the hole they have dug themselves into, a Labour vote with the government to approve May's compromise deal would be good for the country, good for May and good for Labour as they will have shown they are capable of a bit of statesmanship and putting the need to keep the country on an even keel before their immediate self-interest. 

Labour is overwhelmingly pro-remain with only a handful of likely rebels like Dennis Skinner and Kate Hoey.

The only people it would be bad for would be the reactionary bigots who lied throughout the referendum campaign about the benefits Brexit would bring the country, all of which have been shown to be a complete illusion over the last few months as the negotiations over Brexit have shown.

Curtain call with a crescendo of boos and hisses for the likes of Boris Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Davis.

[The Horse's Mouth]

I'd be baffled if Labour sided with May, the main rhetoric from the Labour party seems more swayed to a general election rather than a people's vote. If May is unable to and is most likely to not have her plan go through, then it only adds more fuel to the idea that the government don't know what they're doing and there needs to be a general election where both parties put their brexit plans in black and white on their manifestos

[urban.spaceman]

5 hours ago, davieG said:

Do you think the interviewer heard a word she was saying, they did well to not break out laughing, Monty Python would be impressed.

Terry Jones in drag interviewing Eric Idle in drag with Graham Chapman doing his best to get in the camera shot in the background.

[Buce]

45 minutes ago, The Fox Covert said:

This compromiseneeds to happen. Although Labour would not at first sight would be interested in helping to get the Tories out of the hole they have dug themselves into, a Labour vote with the government to approve May's compromise deal would be good for the country, good for May and good for Labour as they will have shown they are capable of a bit of statesmanship and putting the need to keep the country on an even keel before their immediate self-interest. 

Labour is overwhelmingly pro-remain with only a handful of likely rebels like Dennis Skinner and Kate Hoey.

The only people it would be bad for would be the reactionary bigots who lied throughout the referendum campaign about the benefits Brexit would bring the country, all of which have been shown to be a complete illusion over the last few months as the negotiations over Brexit have shown.

Curtain call with a crescendo of boos and hisses for the likes of Boris Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Davis.

1

 

How?

 

It's a half-assed compromise that suits nobody.

[urban.spaceman]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/15/steve-bannon-oxford-union

 

The Guardian getting their knickers in a twist about the Oxford Union hosting Steve Bannon and giving him a platform to spout political views they don’t like, but in doing so publicising the event ten times wider than before. When will they learn?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

20 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

I'd be baffled if Labour sided with May, the main rhetoric from the Labour party seems more swayed to a general election rather than a people's vote. If May is unable to and is most likely to not have her plan go through, then it only adds more fuel to the idea that the government don't know what they're doing and there needs to be a general election where both parties put their brexit plans in black and white on their manifestos

If the Labour party and Corbyn are pushing for a general election to push and promote their own agenda at the current time that is not in the best interest of Britain and it is not in the best interests of the public, it is only in the interest of egos in the Labour party. Yes there are a lot of issues for the UK but at present we need to solve this issue as if it is not dealt with correctly we will all be a lot poorer!

 

The deal Labour are proposing even if they got into power is little different from that proposed by May, any deviation from that and the EU wont accept it anyway, so it a pointless exercise. In the unlikely event they were able to command a majority would they be able to get any deal through parliament? 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

How?

 

It's a half-assed compromise that suits nobody.

But we have a 52% 48% split, there is no way everyone can ever be pleased with the outcome.

 

I would rather no Brexit but to be honest if we have to have it, which given the result of the previous vote May is working to we probably should, then this is probably about as good a deal as the EU are going to let us have. I don't see what other options are going to even come close to pleasing everyone:

 

No deal: 48% OF Remainers and x% of leavers pissed off

Stay in: Leavers pissed, some  remainers pissed at failings of democracy

New Vote: Everyone pissed who believes a vote should be a vote

 

 

[mancunianfox]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

If the Labour party and Corbyn are pushing for a general election to push and promote their own agenda at the current time that is not in the best interest of Britain and it is not in the best interests of the public, it is only in the interest of egos in the Labour party. Yes there are a lot of issues for the UK but at present we need to solve this issue as if it is not dealt with correctly we will all be a lot poorer!

 

The deal Labour are proposing even if they got into power is little different from that proposed by May, any deviation from that and the EU wont accept it anyway, so it a pointless exercise. In the unlikely event they were able to command a majority would they be able to get any deal through parliament? 

I think the problem currently is that there is not a solution to this issue. This deal is just designed to protect businesses from the fallout and cause the least amount of damage possible. That makes sense, but it doesn't really deliver what the leave side sold which is undeliverable without causing a lot of damage.

[Buce]

UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

Poverty envoy says callous policies driven by political desire for social re-engineering

• ‘I’m scared to eat sometimes’

• Women reveal impact of cuts

• Children tell UN: ‘It’s unfair’

 

The UK government has inflicted “great misery” on its people with “punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous” austerity policies driven by a political desire to undertake social re-engineering rather than economic necessity, the United Nations poverty envoy has found.

Philip Alston, the UN’s rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, ended a two-week fact-finding mission to the UK with a stinging declaration that despite being the world’s fifth largest economy, levels of child poverty are “not just a disgrace, but a social calamity and an economic disaster”.

About 14 million people, a fifth of the population, live in poverty, and 1.5 million are destitute, unable to afford basic essentials, he said, citing figures from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. He highlighted predictions that child poverty could rise by 7% between 2015 and 2022, possibly up to a rate of 40%.

“It is patently unjust and contrary to British values that so many people are living in poverty,” he said, adding that compassion had been abandoned during almost a decade of austerity policies that had been so profound that key elements of the post-war social contract, devised by William Beveridge more than 70 years ago, had been swept away.

 

In an excoriating 24-page report, which will be presented to the UN human rights council in Geneva next year, the eminent human rights lawyer said that in the UK “poverty is a political choice”.

He told a press conference in London:

• Austerity Britain was in breach of four UN human rights agreements relating to women, children, disabled people and economic and social rights. “If you got a group of misogynists in a room and said how can we make this system work for men and not for women they would not have come up with too many ideas that are not already in place,” he said.

• The limit on benefits payments to only the first two children in a family was “in the same ball park” as China’s one-child policy because it punished people who had a third child.

• Cuts of 50% to council budgets were slashing at Britain’s “culture of local concern” and “damaging the fabric” of society.

• The middle classes would “find themselves living in an increasingly hostile and unwelcoming society because community roots are being broken”.

The government said it “completely disagreed” with Alston’s analysis.

A spokeperson said household incomes were at a record high, income inequality had fallen and that universal credit, which Alston attacked as “Orwellian” and “fast falling into universal discredit”, was supporting people into work faster.

“We are absolutely committed to helping people improve their lives while providing the right support for those who need it,” the spokesperson said.

Alston’s report follows similar audits of extreme poverty in China, Saudi Arabia, Ghana, Mauritania and the US, the last of which sparked a furious response from the Trump White House after it accused the US of pursuing policies that deliberately forced millions of Americans into financial ruin while lavishing vast riches on the super-wealthy.

Charities working to alleviate poverty said the report was a “wake-up call for government”.

It is likely to crystallise growing public unease over the impact of nearly a decade of cuts to the welfare state and public services, which studies have shown have had a disproportionate effect on the poor, the disabled and women. Soaring use of food banks, increasingly visible homelessness and cuts to school budgets have widened concerns about the Conservative party’s fiscal strategy.

 

After visiting towns and cities including London, Oxford, Cardiff, Newcastle, Glasgow and Belfast, Alston said that “obvious to anyone who opens their eyes to see the immense growth in food banks and the queues waiting outside them, the people sleeping rough in the streets, the growth of homelessness, the sense of deep despair that leads even the government to appoint a minister for suicide prevention and civil society to report in depth on unheard-of levels of loneliness and isolation.”

He called for the elimination of the five-week delay in receiving benefits under the universal credit system, which has plunged many into destitution.

Flaws in its design and implementation harmed claimants’ mental health, finances and work prospects, and benefits sanctions were “harsh and arbitrary”. Vulnerable claimants “struggled to survive”, he said.

The ministers he met – including Esther McVey, who was the work and pensions secretary until Thursday, when she resigned over the Brexit deal – were almost entirely dismissive of criticisms of welfare changes and universal credit, he said. Instead they described critics as political saboteurs, or said they failed to understand how it worked.

He highlighted the chancellor’s decision in this month’s budget to give a tax cut to the rich rather than using that money to alleviate poverty for millions, adding: “Austerity could easily have spared the poor, if the political will had existed to do so.”

Alston said the government was in a state of denial and there was a “striking disconnect” between what ministers said and the testimonies he heard from ordinary people.

 

“Even while devolved authorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland are frantically trying to devise ways to ‘mitigate’, or in other words counteract, at least the worst features of the government’s benefits policy, ministers insisted to me that all is well and running according to plan.”

He said he had met people who didn’t have a safe place for their children to sleep, who had sold sex for money or shelter, young people who felt gangs were the only way out of destitution, and people with disabilities who were being told they needed to go back to work or lose support, against their doctors’ orders. He described how town hall budgets had been “gutted” in England resulting in a record sell-off of libraries and parks, and closures of youth centres.

“I have also seen tremendous resilience, strength and generosity, with neighbours supporting one another, councils seeking creative solutions, and charities stepping in to fill holes in government services,” he said.

On food banks, he said: “I was struck by how much their mobilisation resembled the sort of activity you might expect for a natural disaster or health epidemic.”

A common theme of the testimonies he heard was the impact on people’s mental health and feelings of loneliness and fear.

“I was surprised by the talk of suicide, by the people I met who said they had considered suicide … There are some pretty serious mental health dimensions.”

In his conclusion, Alston called for “the legislative recognition of social rights” in the UK, a move that has long been resisted by UK governments but which is the status quo in countries such as Sweden and Germany.

Margaret Greenwood, the shadow work and pensions secretary, said: “The government should listen to the people being pushed into poverty by its policies.

“Universal credit is failing miserably, leaving families in debt, [in] rent arrears and at risk of becoming homeless. Three million children are growing up in poverty despite living in a working household.

“Labour will stop the roll out of universal credit, end the benefit freeze and transform the social security system so that it supports people instead of punishing them.”

Edited 16 November 2018 by Buce

[Bobby Hundreds]

Cameron and Osborne's legacy is really something else.  

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, mancunianfox said:

I think the problem currently is that there is not a solution to this issue. This deal is just designed to protect businesses from the fallout and cause the least amount of damage possible. That makes sense, but it doesn't really deliver what the leave side sold which is undeliverable without causing a lot of damage.

Its because its not possible certainly in the short term. 

 

At the end of the day if the figures were more conclusive like 70% I could say fair enough, lets go for it but we are talking a knife edge split. 48% of people did not want this to happen, of the 52% how many of those wanted a no deal Brexit? who knows, but its unlikely to be the majority of the population. 

 

A governments job is to do the best for the majority, and the jobs and security that the majority rely on. Despite Mays faults that is exactly what she is trying to do. 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Cameron and Osborne's legacy is really something else.  

Or that of Brown and Blairs financial mismanagement?! 

 

How are Labour planning to pay for the things they suggest? By raising unemployment, increasing the minimum wage, increasing tax? Make the nasty rich man pay? stop the creation of jobs that pay to put food on the table and create a another bubble based on borrowing! Ok lets go round again! Except this bunch of Labour politicians are more dangerous than anything that has led before.