Long Term Strategy

[volpeazzurro]

14 minutes ago, Quorndon_Fox said:

Fantastic well written post! 

 

I think the real challenge lies in keeping our best young talent aka Maguire, Chilwell, Ndidi, Maddison, Hamza, etc. Thanks to the re-sign mission Rudkin has been on if any of these players go it will be for a massive fee, however... the difficulty sits around replacing them with the next great young hope or spending big on a world class replacement which probably won't be attracted to a club not yet established as a regular top six side.

 

Its a bit of a chicken and egg scenario and the question is how quickly can we make that move into the top six without someone pulling one of our main cards and making the house collapse.

Absolutely true and we have seen that even teams like Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea are not immune from this also. However, we have quite a crop coming through now and I personally find it quite exciting and inspiring. If they all start to click, get regular games, get on the cusp of or even into Europe,  get picked for your country ... why would you want to leave? Particularly if you are a young bunch of lads having fun and get on with each other. 

 

If they were offered a contract at a big club though you can't deny an individual's right to try and achieve their ambitions. I was gutted when Hesky went for example yet really pleased for him at the same time. Marhez was at the other end of my thoughts, it's about how these things are done sometimes. 

 

Enjoy the ride folks, the future is bright. Forgive the odd teething mistakes and inconsistencies of the young and enjoy their progression, it can be fantastic to watch.

[urban.spaceman]

7 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

OP is an excellent analysis and you've got to give credit to people at the club for realising the errors that were made previously. Ghezzal still appears very questionable and effectively signals we've given up on Diabate, but you'd have to say the recruitment did make a lot more sense in the summer.

 

The gripe really is that a lot of the football this season has been rubbish and this is where the debate goes on with Puel - how much of the positives listed in the OP is down to Puel, and how much is due to those above him?

Because nowadays for me, that kind of strategy should be coming from above Puel himself, with Puel responsible for coaching the team.

 

I do honestly believe our future is bright, but I think Puel will be looked back upon one day as a transitional manager - I expect his successor (because in truth I don't think he'll last ages here) to do very well. He definitely deserves some credit in all of this and these are pretty much the reasons why I haven't gone all guns glazing at him, because plenty has happened this season that I've questioned.

 

We're in a strong position as a club though. Tying down bright young players to long deals is common sense.

 

I want to think that Rudkin has learnt from his mistakes.

The strategy is coming from the top but for it to work it has to be shared by all members of staff. When we hired Puel, Top said that he was a perfect fit for our ambitions, that his knowledge of the club and attention to detail were what really clinched it. 

 

Poor performances aside, he’s done mostly the right things off the pitch; his focus on youth (even attending most U23 games) is particularly impressive IMO. He’s put his trust in young players even when most of us have lost our shit with them. 

 

He was always supposed to be a “transitional” manager - he’s the guy to take us to the next level.

[norwichfox]

7 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

OP is an excellent analysis and you've got to give credit to people at the club for realising the errors that were made previously. Ghezzal still appears very questionable and effectively signals we've given up on Diabate, but you'd have to say the recruitment did make a lot more sense in the summer.

 

The gripe really is that a lot of the football this season has been rubbish and this is where the debate goes on with Puel - how much of the positives listed in the OP is down to Puel, and how much is due to those above him?

Because nowadays for me, that kind of strategy should be coming from above Puel himself, with Puel responsible for coaching the team.

 

I do honestly believe our future is bright, but I think Puel will be looked back upon one day as a transitional manager - I expect his successor (because in truth I don't think he'll last ages here) to do very well. He definitely deserves some credit in all of this and these are pretty much the reasons why I haven't gone all guns glazing at him, because plenty has happened this season that I've questioned.

 

We're in a strong position as a club though. Tying down bright young players to long deals is common sense.

 

I want to think that Rudkin has learnt from his mistakes.

A glass act?

 

sorry, couldn't resist...

Edited 29 December 2018 by norwichfox

[Nicolo Barella]

4 hours ago, Goober said:

In terms of the security of his job, I believe it would. We’ve seen plenty of false dawns under Puel and it would be the most annoying of the lot after the week we’ve had. 

 

Im not saying Cardiff will be a piece of piss and they’ll roll over for us, but we really should be beating them. 3 of the ‘easiest’ points we should be getting all season.

That is true, to be fair

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, Oxfordfox83 said:

With all the respect due to you, apart from one penalty shoot out against Man City, what better result were you hoping for than 7th at this stage of the season? The megabucks mini-league aside, we are in the one position that every club in the league is fighting for. And we’re doing it while learning a new system, underperforming, and bringing young players into the fold. 

 

Yeah, it’s not clicked straight away. It’s been painful to watch at times. But the table never lies- the one thing we are getting is results.

If not for 2 unexpected wins against two top sides we’d be bottom half. The issue this season has been the inability to beat sides like Palace, Bournemouth, Burnley, Fulham, Brighton, West Ham I’m not saying we should win all of those games but none of them is worrying and unconvincing wins against unlucky Wolves and awful Huddersfield. 

 

The main issue for for me is we don’t look like winning playing Puel-ball and our goals very rarely come from a patient passing build up, they come from a set-piece, a mistake or a counter attack. I come away from every game, apart from the last 2, thinking we did not play to our potential and we can play better and we are not getting the best out of the players. 

[Hanan96]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

If not for 2 unexpected wins against two top sides we’d be bottom half. The issue this season has been the inability to beat sides like Palace, Bournemouth, Burnley, Fulham, Brighton, West Ham I’m not saying we should win all of those games but none of them is worrying and unconvincing wins against unlucky Wolves and awful Huddersfield. 

 

The main issue for for me is we don’t look like winning playing Puel-ball and our goals very rarely come from a patient passing build up, they come from a set-piece, a mistake or a counter attack. I come away from every game, apart from the last 2, thinking we did not play to our potential and we can play better and we are not getting the best out of the players. 

Against Burnley and west ham we miss couple of clear cut chances, even hit the woodwork multiple times! 

In another game we also have couple one on one chances which missed by the likes of vardy. 

For man utd and Liverpool game we are also playing very well and unlucky not to get any points. Our game againts arsenal were written by some pundits should be 2 or 3 goal ahead in first 30 minutes but then unfortunate. 

I think we are more hit and miss, both lucky and unlucky this season rather than always lucky 

 

Regarding of puel ball, he once said he wants us to be capable counter attacking as well held the ball. Can't see much issues here

[Captain...]

7 hours ago, Hanan96 said:

Against Burnley and west ham we miss couple of clear cut chances, even hit the woodwork multiple times! 

In another game we also have couple one on one chances which missed by the likes of vardy. 

For man utd and Liverpool game we are also playing very well and unlucky not to get any points. Our game againts arsenal were written by some pundits should be 2 or 3 goal ahead in first 30 minutes but then unfortunate. 

I think we are more hit and miss, both lucky and unlucky this season rather than always lucky 

 

Regarding of puel ball, he once said he wants us to be capable counter attacking as well held the ball. Can't see much issues here

Still feel that way?

 

We have players capable of beating Man City and Chelsea and as you said we were unlucky against Man United and Arsenal, but we consistently under perform against weaker opponents. Losing today was all too predictable. 

[chapero82]

Win one lose one seems the plan  

[Hanan96]

6 hours ago, Captain... said:

Still feel that way?

 

We have players capable of beating Man City and Chelsea and as you said we were unlucky against Man United and Arsenal, but we consistently under perform against weaker opponents. Losing today was all too predictable. 

Capable? That's mad. The likes of man city, chelsea got player better than us at the momment, and got much more financial backing. 

 

We are performed inconsistency,not consistently underperformed. 

[Stadt]

The chief concern is that we look better the less we play Puel's style of play. We look like we're not very well coached in the final third, we cross and shoot from poor positions, we don't look to find players in specific areas or create suitable overloads. Its 2010 possession football and not 2018 possession football. I said give him his own players and give him time, he's had both and are we any better than last season? I'm not advocating sacking him but it's difficult to make the case that he's going to take us forwards, the status quo is fine but as a fan you never want to settle for what you've got.

[l444ry]

Long term strategy is like Brexit. What the hell does it mean?

[Fox85]

1 minute ago, l444ry said:

Long term strategy is like Brexit. What the hell does it mean?

It basicly means we look crap at the moment but after time we will be much better off.

[Blanchflower78]

What infuriates is this whole Premier League approach to containment and single striker obsession. Good example being Cardiff. Forget the result, had we of played that fixture as a championship game we would have almost certainly played a '2' up top. Ala,  Nugent and Vardy combo which served us so well.

I appreciate in the Prem you have to be far more wary and structured at times BUT does that mean you can't take the game to a side who will only sit back from minute 1?

We struggle to break down sides playing this way but remain intent on playing a lone striker with support when possible. 

What Cardiff wouldn't have expected on Saturday would have been 2 forwards playing up top and width to supply, Gray, albrighton. Full backs in Ricardo and chilwell who could easily overlap and at times force the wide men in to tucking in to provide protection.

If their 2 centre halves had 2 strikers to pick up would have enabled more presence higher up the pitch and therefore more pressure. Instead we witnessed lots of isolation, again, at home to Cardiff.....

 

Some times the simplest ways can be the most effective. Whilst I wouldn't expect to see us adopt it too often it's a formation that's proved many a success over the years, just ask Fergie! 

 

[urban.spaceman]

On 31/12/2018 at 14:26, l444ry said:

Long term strategy is like Brexit. What the hell does it mean?

It means sacrificing some short term joy for providing a much more successful long term future. 

 

Not that I want to get into a debate over Brexit of course! 

[yks]

IMO, the plan when Puel was hired was always this :
(The board insisted on the long term plan at this moment and once again with the statement at the end of the season, and a long term plan is at least 3 years)


17/18 :
- Stabilizing the results after the catastrophic start of the season, with the players in place. (Done)
- Starting to develop the youngest ones. (Done)
That's why I was Puel in even with some bad results at the end of the season.

18/19 :
- Starting getting rid of the unwanted players. (Done)
- Starting to recruit players fit to his system and long term plan, so young players with a high ceiling and good technical abilities. (Done)
- Getting decent results (Done)

Obviously, still Puel in

19/20 :
- Finishing the transition from the aging team that won the league to a Puel team
- Pushing for Europe

After that :
- Profit

We'll see how it goes, but considering how we already have these decent results this season, how the team manage to play in his best moments, how the young players have improved, how the high profile recruits are adapting and mostly because experience shows Puel is the man who can lead such a project (a point totally forgotten by the "Puel out" crowd even when it's the most important to me, because long term results are far more valuable indication of the quality of a manager than short term results in a new league with teams he didn't built), I'm optimistic for the future, even excited.

Edited 1 January 2019 by yks

[foxinsocks]

12 minutes ago, yks said:

...

18/19 :
- Starting getting rid of the unwanted players. (Done)
- Starting to recruit players fit to his system and long term plan, so young players with a high ceiling and good technical abilities. (Done)
 ....I'm optimistic for the future, even excited.

Have we got rid of players unable to play in a club in top third?  Nacho? Silva? Ghazzel grey?

Have we confined ourselves to hiring quality?  For every ricardo we have a ghazzel or a silva?

I am optimistic that top will realise claud us not the future. ...

Edited 1 January 2019 by foxinsocks

[yks]

Just now, foxinsocks said:

Have we got rid of players unable to play in a club in top third?  Nacho? Silva? Ghazzel grey?

Hive we confined ourselves to huring quality?  Fir every ricardo we have a ghazzel or a silva?

I am optimistic that top will realise claud us not the future. ...

You can't sell 10 players in a mercato and buy 10 other ones in the same time if you want to keep cohesion in the team.

Silva wasn't bought by Puel.
Nacho is still young and can get better.
Gray is a decent Premier League player with a high ceiling, he is far from being unable to play for us, like Nacho.
Ghezzal is here for only 6 months and he's just a subsitute and a panic buy and cost only about 10M.

I would buy 5 Ghezzal every season if for each one we get a Ricardo + a Maddison + a Soyuncu + a Benkovic.

[foxinsocks]

4 minutes ago, yks said:

You can't sell 10 players in a mercato and buy 10 other ones in the same time if you want to keep cohesion in the team.

Silva wasn't bought by Puel.
Nacho is still young and can get better.
Gray is a decent Premier League player with a high ceiling, he is far from being unable to play for us, like Nacho.
Ghezzal is here for only 6 months and he's just a subsitute and a panic buy and cost only about 10M.

I would buy 5 Ghezzal every season if for each one we get a Ricardo + a Maddison + a Soyuncu + a Benkovic.

You would.... i wouldn't

 

He is only starting ricardo. ... 

[yks]

Just now, foxinsocks said:

You would.... i wouldn't

 

He is only starting ricardo. ... 

You must be a bit slow... Maddison is one of the players who start the most games and Benkovic is loaned.
Soyuncu was obviously bought for the future.
 

[David Hankey]

It is something of a conundrum. Whilst it is obvious that we need to keep our talented young players, most of whom have already been mentioned before, we also need to be in a position where we can offer the attraction of regular top 6 and European football. It is all in the art of persuasion but unfortunately whilst we are considered an "unfashionable" Club, remember some of the press comments during the 2015/16 season, it remains a tall order.

[volpeazzurro]

56 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

You would.... i wouldn't

 

He is only starting ricardo. ... 

I think like somebody has already said on here, supporters have got to get used to the fact, as unusual a concept that it is for us, that some players are being deliberately bought for the future and not the here and now.

 

Maddison is being played now as is Pereira,  but also is one for the future. Ward, Benkovic and Soyuncu were all bought as very good prospects that can be brought through. It's a good way for us as a club to operate as we are not a club that can either afford or even attract the established finished article. If we look at the amount of young talent we have, there are a number of very good prospects for success there already that even if we had to sell them, there is also the prospect of handsome profit to be reinvested.

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, yks said:

IMO, the plan when Puel was hired was always this :
(The board insisted on the long term plan at this moment and once again with the statement at the end of the season, and a long term plan is at least 3 years)


17/18 :
- Stabilizing the results after the catastrophic start of the season, with the players in place. (Done)
- Starting to develop the youngest ones. (Done)
That's why I was Puel in even with some bad results at the end of the season.

18/19 :
- Starting getting rid of the unwanted players. (Done)
- Starting to recruit players fit to his system and long term plan, so young players with a high ceiling and good technical abilities. (Done)
- Getting decent results (Done)

Obviously, still Puel in

19/20 :
- Finishing the transition from the aging team that won the league to a Puel team
- Pushing for Europe

After that :
- Profit

We'll see how it goes, but considering how we already have these decent results this season, how the team manage to play in his best moments, how the young players have improved, how the high profile recruits are adapting and mostly because experience shows Puel is the man who can lead such a project (a point totally forgotten by the "Puel out" crowd even when it's the most important to me, because long term results are far more valuable indication of the quality of a manager than short term results in a new league with teams he didn't built), I'm optimistic for the future, even excited.

 Great post that and I agree that is the club's mission.

 

The only thing I will say, is that I think it's the CLUB mission rather than the manager's mission per se. Had we lost all 4 games over Christmas for example, I have no doubt he would have been sacked and someone else would have come in. But the project would not change, and the same ethos would apply to whomever came in next. But as you've so eloquently put above, Puel is likely meeting all of the criteria that will be sued to judge him by Rudkin and Top.

 

I have to say on this note, that I think Puel, Bonnevay and co are definitely improving our players and doing a fantastic job with the young players especially:

 

- Vardy. More of an all round striker now. Yes he's at his imperious best when we pass the ball quickly through the lines to get him 1v1 against the keeper, but his all round game is getting more and more complete all the time. The goal he setup for Albrighton against Man City was perfect centre forward play, and there were a number of times versus Everton where he stretched the play, held the ball up and then played in either Ricardo or Albrighton.

 

- Albrighton. He's become more of an inside forward than a Winger this season. Contributing more goals, assists and key passes. He's really impressed me this month when he's been fully fit.

 

- Chilwell. Not much to be said here. Slated during his first 6 months in the team, he's now England's first choice left back and deservedly so.

 

- Gray. Not yet become Mahrez 2.0 (nor I expect will he ever be), but the defensive side of his game has improved massively. Chases back and helps defend as a team very well this season.

 

- Amartey. Was solid at right back before he got injured. Not as good as Simmo, but given Simmo's age, Amartey did not look out of place in the team.

 

- Choudhury. Has looked fantastic in December. He looked decent last season, but this season he looks like a first choice Premier League midfielder and that is saying something.

 

 

I think the only frustrations are with Ndidi who has arguably declined a little bit (seriously I would just make him do short passing practice for a month solid!) and Nacho who just doesn't seem to be able to take his chance and was left out of the squad again today. We didn't miss him! But still, the overall record with our current squad is pretty good.

[urban.spaceman]

8 hours ago, yks said:

IMO, the plan when Puel was hired was always this :
(The board insisted on the long term plan at this moment and once again with the statement at the end of the season, and a long term plan is at least 3 years)


17/18 :
- Stabilizing the results after the catastrophic start of the season, with the players in place. (Done)
- Starting to develop the youngest ones. (Done)
That's why I was Puel in even with some bad results at the end of the season.

18/19 :
- Starting getting rid of the unwanted players. (Done)
- Starting to recruit players fit to his system and long term plan, so young players with a high ceiling and good technical abilities. (Done)
- Getting decent results (Done)

Obviously, still Puel in

19/20 :
- Finishing the transition from the aging team that won the league to a Puel team
- Pushing for Europe

After that :
- Profit

We'll see how it goes, but considering how we already have these decent results this season, how the team manage to play in his best moments, how the young players have improved, how the high profile recruits are adapting and mostly because experience shows Puel is the man who can lead such a project (a point totally forgotten by the "Puel out" crowd even when it's the most important to me, because long term results are far more valuable indication of the quality of a manager than short term results in a new league with teams he didn't built), I'm optimistic for the future, even excited.

Great post but I’d imagine Europe is our aim this season - especially with all the big contracts we’ve been signing lately. Last season I still firmly believe we did our best to avoid the Europa League as it was more important to start fixing the squad first. 

 

I should hope the squad would be strong enough next season to cope with European and domestic competitions. 

[Ric Flair]

10 hours ago, David Hankey said:

It is something of a conundrum. Whilst it is obvious that we need to keep our talented young players, most of whom have already been mentioned before, we also need to be in a position where we can offer the attraction of regular top 6 and European football. It is all in the art of persuasion but unfortunately whilst we are considered an "unfashionable" Club, remember some of the press comments during the 2015/16 season, it remains a tall order.

One of the most obvious ways to achieve this is going for it when you get to the latter stages of cup competitions, but under Puel we have bowed out of 3 quarter finals at home and it is frustrating. Win another trophy and it really would help keep our best young players.

[volpeazzurro]

On 29/12/2018 at 12:34, Captain... said:

If not for 2 unexpected wins against two top sides we’d be bottom half. The issue this season has been the inability to beat sides like Palace, Bournemouth, Burnley, Fulham, Brighton, West Ham I’m not saying we should win all of those games but none of them is worrying and unconvincing wins against unlucky Wolves and awful Huddersfield. 

 

The main issue for for me is we don’t look like winning playing Puel-ball and our goals very rarely come from a patient passing build up, they come from a set-piece, a mistake or a counter attack. I come away from every game, apart from the last 2, thinking we did not play to our potential and we can play better and we are not getting the best out of the players. 

I can understand your point but it's probably precisely the adoption of a new style that allows us to score from the counter attack if that doesn't sound rediculous?  When we were successful with that style we had the requisite players to carry it out. When we lost them under Shakespeare, we were predictable, couldn't execute it well and teams sat a couple of players back, anticipating it and it failed spectacularly. 

 

Now I would suggest,  because we have more than one string to our bow,  particularly against the bigger sides, the counter attack is a bit more of a surprise and works again. I would maintain that our new  style is still not as Puel wants it as it's still too slow and ponderous at times and we require the players to help put that right and a particular type of midfielder to provide a more attacking sphere of play and through or over the top balls. I think it will come.

 

I do agree with you regarding set pieces. You'd think we could mixture it up a bit more. I do think we tend to over rate the odd ones of our players and many of the teams around us have,  like us, a smattering of more special players  (like Bournemouth), that can on their day cause problems. The lower teams you mention will sit back and fight and as yet, we just don't appear to have that extra bit of quality or midfielder options to successfully break them down. An Ozil, David SIlva, Erikson or Hazard etc. These of course are a Rolls Royce version but perhaps we can find a couple of young up and comings. Could Barnes or Maddison eventuality fulfil a similar role, I don't know enough about the former.