Who is killing the Cups, and why?

[KingsX]

“Winning trophies” is very important to supporters, who project that feeling onto the players, and expect their teams to reflect that priority.  However …

 

Fans care about tradition, entertainment, and reflected glory.  Players care about money, fame, and the likelihood of being noticed (by big European clubs and their national teams).

 

PL, EL and CL trophies fit the bill for both groups.  Domestic cups offer no money and only domestic prestige.  Meaningful to fans … less so to players, or the businesses we still call “clubs”.

 

A cup gets you European football, so that should be a carrot for players.  And if players cared enough that League or FA cups made a difference where they signed, clubs would also care.  Instead, even Championship clubs rotate, and big clubs play their reserves until the semis.

 

Cup economics are poor for most clubs.  To get that carrot, you have to win, including at least a couple of ties against big clubs.  Trying to win a cup, then bolstering the bench for the EL qualifying grind (League Cup) or groups (FA Cup), both require diverting resources (namely better or fresher first team players) away from league position.  Bottom line: for many clubs a cup will reduce their income. 

 

That cup has intangible value.  Your supporters will remember it for decades, and a lucky few will get to watch their side in a faraway town or three.  But by reducing/diverting your income, it will hurt your ability to improve.  Unless you are at least at the best-of-the-rest “mini-league” level, it won’t add net business value, far from it.  (see: Burnley’s take on the Europa League, and current PL season.)  You'd have to make it to (or through) the groups at least.

 

The matchgoing fan was the lifeblood of the first century of the game.  PL revenue is now the lifeblood.  The extra five or ten million pounds for a few PL places is not just “any” money.  It is all-important money at the margin: clear of expenses and loans, available for recruiting players and managers.

 

I predict the PL will cease to participate in the EFL Cup.  The big clubs, especially, are playing to  a worldwide audience now, and that is where all the revenue growth is.   The “Superleague leaks” made it painfully clear that playing minnows before small domestic audiences is against their interests.  They dislike playing Cardiff or Burnley Saturdays at 3:00, much less Burton or Rotherham for a cup.  They have no worries that their better players would disagree, and neither do most PL clubs.

 

In an ideal world the FA Cup would be embraced by the PL and come with a CL (vice EL) group spot.  That would marry tradition like the incomparable drama of huge Cup upsets, with economics attractive to bigger clubs.  The “mini league” and big six would immediately value the Cup, and the matches would be of more interest to the foreign audience.  But could UEFA and a big-six dominated PL be convinced to make such a change?  For the answer, just Follow The Money.

[urban.spaceman]

 

Puel Out. 

[Voll Blau]

Various agents to blame for this:

 

- The Premier League and Sky Sports for making armchair fans believe it's the 'Best League In The World TM' and that nothing else matters

- Armchair fans and other media who have bought into this myth and continue to perpetuate it

- Big clubs who have benefited from that and, due to their inflated budgets and squads, can now afford to coast through the Cups playing mostly reserve XIs

- Middling clubs (us included) who assume we should follow that lead and consider the Cups somehow beneath us

- Club owners/chairman who care more about their club's/their own financial standing than silverware (again, because PL standing is now more lucrative than Cup wins), and therefore don't brief their managers to prioritise silverware

- The FA for utterly and pathetically failing to stand up for its own competition and caving in to every demand of the PL/big clubs at every opportunity

- And supporters aren't blameless here either. We should all demand our clubs treat these competitions with more respect if we want them to do so!

[Crinklyfox]

Football is a business and the cups aren't as valuable as PL places.

 

Last season every place in the PL was worth about £2 million.  To get that sort of money from a cup competition you have to make the final.  So when in comes to three points or progress to the next round of a cup competition, the three points wins the day most times.

 

I hate the way the cup competitions are treated and regard our efforts this season as wasted opportunities but until the money is increased I can't see change happening soon.

[Dan]

13 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Various agents to blame for this:

 

- The Premier League and Sky Sports for making armchair fans believe it's the 'Best League In The World TM' and that nothing else matters

- Armchair fans and other media who have bought into this myth and continue to perpetuate it

- Big clubs who have benefited from that and, due to their inflated budgets and squads, can now afford to coast through the Cups playing mostly reserve XIs

- Middling clubs (us included) who assume we should follow that lead and consider the Cups somehow beneath us

- Club owners/chairman who care more about their club's/their own financial standing than silverware (again, because PL standing is now more lucrative than Cup wins), and therefore don't brief their managers to prioritise silverware

- The FA for utterly and pathetically failing to stand up for its own competition and caving in to every demand of the PL/big clubs at every opportunity

- And supporters aren't blameless here either. We should all demand our clubs treat these competitions with more respect if we want them to do so!

Following on from this, this is cynical even by my standards but I'm convinced that there's some dodgy fixture planning going on as well. Cramming the fixture list before the 3rd round, chucking a midweek game in just after round 4, even now next year they've binned the 5th round to midweek. I almost feel like they're deliberately doing it to increase the chances the cup becomes even weaker.

 

As for the question - everybody is guilty. Everyone near enough plays a weakened team unless they're in a big tie, up until about the quarter finals it's just about who has the more reliable cover. Of course this is usually the top six (well, some of them) so they'll go all the way and I'd be surprised if the FA Cup final wasn't again between two of them.

[Nalis]

Scrapping FA Cup replays but keeping FA Cup matches to a Saturday would have been a fair comprise in my opinion.

 

Wouldnt surprise me if the League Cup semi finals go to one leg, perhaps at a neutral venue (not Wembley).

[Voll Blau]

2 hours ago, Nalis said:

Scrapping FA Cup replays but keeping FA Cup matches to a Saturday would have been a fair comprise in my opinion.

 

Wouldnt surprise me if the League Cup semi finals go to one leg, perhaps at a neutral venue (not Wembley).

Can't get on board with either of those suggestions I'm afraid. One of the delights of the Cup is seeing lower/non-league sides take big clubs to a replay because the big club has failed to use all the vast resources at its disposal to beat a minnow first time out. That said, I'd rather they scrapped replays wholesale than the weird compromise they're bringing in where they'll only be scrapped from the fifth round onwards - making the whole tournament inconsistently balanced (likewise with VAR - either use it in every game from a certain point onwards or don't use it at all. The inconsistency in its use makes the competition a laughing stock as far as I'm concerned).

 

Re the League Cup semis, it's difficult enough asking away fans to travel anywhere midweek in January, let alone two huge allocations of away fans to a neutral venue. Sadly, two legs seems the only fair way of doing it at that stage. A good shot in the arm for the League Cup would be to keep it totally regionalised until say the quarters stage, keeping costs down for travelling fans and throwing up the potential of more interesting local ties (which would also be easier to get to on a Tuesday/Wednesday).

[fuchsntf]

2 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Can't get on board with either of those suggestions I'm afraid. One of the delights of the Cup is seeing lower/non-league sides take big clubs to a replay because the big club has failed to use all the vast resources at its disposal to beat a minnow first time out. That said, I'd rather they scrapped replays wholesale than the weird compromise they're bringing in where they'll only be scrapped from the fifth round onwards - making the whole tournament inconsistently balanced (likewise with VAR - either use it in every game from a certain point onwards or don't use it at all. The inconsistency in its use makes the competition a laughing stock as far as I'm concerned).

 

Re the League Cup semis, it's difficult enough asking away fans to travel anywhere midweek in January, let alone two huge allocations of away fans to a neutral venue. Sadly, two legs seems the only fair way of doing it at that stage. A good shot in the arm for the League Cup would be to keep it totally regionalised until say the quarters stage, keeping costs down for travelling fans and throwing up the potential of more interesting local ties (which would also be easier to get to on a Tuesday/Wednesday).

I would like to see all draws..the lower league club,(same league teams stays as the draw) would always  get home preference if desired.....

League cup..semis one leg at neutral ground  (not Wembley) on a Saturday..    League game in the week...!!

Fa.cup replays until last 4-semi-final... Neutra!-ground...(not Wembley) Then after 90 minutes penalties!!...or golden goal!!

 

[Bayfox]

Whilst I'm not particularly for any changes. I would like to see the minnow in the tie get home advantage if replays are scrapped over the coming years such as seems likely with next year's move to scrap from round 5.

 

Based on the league position when drawn. For clear clarification.

 

However. I guess many lower league clubs would rather a day out at old Trafford, anfield etc.

 

So it's probably not going to happen.

 

As for who is responsible. Money. Money. Money and that stated with $ky.

[davieG]

I think plenty of minnows would prefer to play away especially if it's no replays as it then becomes a big pay day, well the management if not the fans.

[The Bear]

I agree with the OP. 

 

Scrap all replays in both cups. No extra time, just straight to penalties.

 

Remove one CL place in the league, and give it to the FA Cup winner. EFL Cup still gets a Europa League place. 

 

It would encourage teams just outside the top 6 to take the FA Cup more seriously, because the last Europa League spot would only go down to 4th, not 5th as it currently does. 

[Ashley]

Fans are killing the cup too, realistically what could we have done different in that Man City game? not alot they had a strong side out.

 

We had around 9 thousand empty seats this speaks volumes and fans have the nerve to say it's Puels fault  Atmosphere was dead as well.

 

I cant get on board with the 'scrap the replays' thing. For some lower league clubs 'that replay' could keep them going for another few years.

 

As for Newport away, well that side should have comfortably beat Newport.. we took our chances and we would have been 3-0 up in 15 minutes.

 

Shoulda woulda coulda.

[Bert]

2 hours ago, Ashley said:

Fans are killing the cup too, realistically what could we have done different in that Man City game? not alot they had a strong side out.

 

We had around 9 thousand empty seats this speaks volumes and fans have the nerve to say it's Puels fault  Atmosphere was dead as well.

 

I cant get on board with the 'scrap the replays' thing. For some lower league clubs 'that replay' could keep them going for another few years.

 

As for Newport away, well that side should have comfortably beat Newport.. we took our chances and we would have been 3-0 up in 15 minutes.

 

Shoulda woulda coulda.

Especially when cup tickets are the single cheapest match tickets you can buy to any home game all season. Most people want to blame the tv companies because that’s the easiest thing to do and it fits their agenda. But don’t get me wrong, it’s partly down to tv. 

[RowlattsFox]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the format of the FA Cup. Do replays really make that much difference? Scheduling may be the biggest problem, especially the third round coming so quickly after a busy festive period. Teams take chances with their squads in the early rounds and I think they are entitled to do that. Some will get through still and then play their stronger sides later on, other sides will go get beat by a lower league side who want it more. Part of the problems is some of the players play half-arsed in the cup games especially if they are being played as 'reserves', lack of motivation for large parts. 

 

For the League Cup though, Champions League qualifiers shouldn't be entered in the competition the following year. They don't care about it, helps with the amount of games and potentially opens an opportunity for someone else to win and get into Europe. More often than not the cup is won by someone in Europe so the places goes to 7th making the whole cup pointless. You could argue Europa Leagues too, especially if their guaranteed to reach the group stages. 

 

 

 

 

[Finnegan]

I'm sorry but nothing anyone is doing in this country is really killing the FA Cup. Its the lack of interest abroad. 

 

If TV channels in China, Dubai, Africa, the US, Japan, etc all upped their bids to broadcast the cup then the prize money would go up to tempt back the clubs and the prestige would rise. 

 

While they all want to spend billions broadcasting the Prem and not the Cup, you're always going to have disparity, one league place in the Prem is worth more than winning the cup more or less. 

 

Blaming supporters, armchair fans, the FA and even the Premier League is laughable. Like blaming an ant for an earthquake. Its just all the money. Its not even Sky Sports fault, they're just one domestic bidder. I'd like to know what % of the Premier League's television revenue comes from Sky alone. 

 

I don't even think I necessarily blame clubs owners. I mean, all they're actually doing is trying to make their clubs as successful in the league as possible. Don't we as fans want that? 

[Dan]

I'd scrap replays if the two teams are in the same league. I cannot think of a single instance where either side would want it.

[filbertway]

They could copy the FA vase and Trophy. If both teams agree to it, then scrap the replay for that fixture.

[Dan]

Extra time - there's a good case for binning it from football completely to be honest.

[TiffToff88]

4 hours ago, RowlattsFox said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the format of the FA Cup. Do replays really make that much difference? Scheduling may be the biggest problem, especially the third round coming so quickly after a busy festive period. Teams take chances with their squads in the early rounds and I think they are entitled to do that. Some will get through still and then play their stronger sides later on, other sides will go get beat by a lower league side who want it more. Part of the problems is some of the players play half-arsed in the cup games especially if they are being played as 'reserves', lack of motivation for large parts. 

 

For the League Cup though, Champions League qualifiers shouldn't be entered in the competition the following year. They don't care about it, helps with the amount of games and potentially opens an opportunity for someone else to win and get into Europe. More often than not the cup is won by someone in Europe so the places goes to 7th making the whole cup pointless. You could argue Europa Leagues too, especially if their guaranteed to reach the group stages. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure you can say they don't care about the League cup when they're still winning it every season. They just put out weakened teams because they know other premier league teams are doing the same and that they know their reserves are better than our reserves. If they needed to put out a stronger team, i have no doubt that they would do so. The big 6 are all about winning trophies, i don't think they care what that trophy is. You just have to look at the Man City side from the first leg of the Burton Semi Final to see how seriously they take the competition.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, TiffToff88 said:

I'm not sure you can say they don't care about the League cup when they're still winning it every season. They just put out weakened teams because they know other premier league teams are doing the same and that they know their reserves are better than our reserves. If they needed to put out a stronger team, i have no doubt that they would do so. The big 6 are all about winning trophies, i don't think they care what that trophy is. You just have to look at the Man City side from the first leg of the Burton Semi Final to see how seriously they take the competition.

Except Spurs...

[Soar Fox]

1 hour ago, Dan LCFC said:

Extra time - there's a good case for binning it from football completely to be honest.

I agree with this.

 

It’s very rare you get an exciting 30 minutes of football during the extra time period. Lesser teams will be happy to settle for a penalty shootout or the players are that exhausted from the 90 minutes the quality of football is poor anyway. 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Steve_Walsh5 said:

I agree with this.

 

It’s very rare you get an exciting 30 minutes of football during the extra time period. Lesser teams will be happy to settle for a penalty shootout or the players are that exhausted from the 90 minutes the quality of football is poor anyway. 

 

 

As a compromise, I wouldn't mind the Golden Goal rule coming back. Would stop teams playing for pens for the last 10/15 mins of normal time, and also gives them the incentive to try and attack in extra time.

[Bayfox]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

As a compromise, I wouldn't mind the Golden Goal rule coming back. Would stop teams playing for pens for the last 10/15 mins of normal time, and also gives them the incentive to try and attack in extra time.

Wasn't it scrapped because we had several examples of teams spending 30 mins trying not to get beat and taking chances with pens tho. So there was essentially no reason to risk opening yourself up and getting beat. Because if you got done on the counter it was tie over.

[Bayfox]

9 hours ago, Bert said:

Especially when cup tickets are the single cheapest match tickets you can buy to any home game all season. Most people want to blame the tv companies because that’s the easiest thing to do and it fits their agenda. But don’t get me wrong, it’s partly down to tv. 

Single cheapest yes, but that's on top of paying for season tickets already, travel, any other food drink etc and knowing there is a strong chance of loads of changes, now I support the club as much as the next person, but I want us to take the cups seriously and when we do I may change my opinion and return to spending additional money.

 

But right now, I know I can sit at home and see these games having not had to fork out for a ticket, trains, food and drink on a midweek.

 

I will add that I would completely accept there is then an arguement that says if we made a semi or final there is a case for those that attended to be given a priority on tickets.

 

However as the club would never dare do it and risk pissing off season ticket holders, I rest safe in the knowledge for now that I can be classed as a glory supporter when it comes to the cups. Although my club don't seem to give too many shits about winning them so it's unlikely to be a debate anytime soon . 

[foxy boxing]

For the big clubs it is more important to finish in the top four while it is more important to stay in the Premier League for those clubs flirting with relegation and it is more important for those clubs seeking promotion to the Premier League. those mid table clubs who won't get relegated or into Europe but still field weakened sides in the cups is what I don't understand! surely any club would want to win a trophy!.