The Politics Thread 2019

[Jon the Hat]

13 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Your points are correct, I've known people who knew Albanian gangs, people who have worked in pubs where they frequent, they have mainly gone from people smuggling to drug trafficking, it would still massively hit the influence of such gangs.

 

The 'lenient' judicial system is another interesting one as it's been picked up on for the Nordic model as well. Namely when Anders Breivik, who committed the mass shooting in 2011 'only' got 21 years. 

 

The thing is, this system means that someone with a sentence of, say, 5 years for smuggling wouldn't just be released, they'd have a meeting with a special release committee, and due to the focus on rehabilitation, if they have any reasons to believe an inmate isn't fully rehabilitated, they could be sentenced for a longer term. And this can go on and on, until they have a good reason to believe release is acceptable.

 

Therefore, you could make the judicial system much stronger by implementing such a system.

The last point there is pretty much exactly what Boris just announced on stopping the automatic release of prisoners when half their sentence is served in custody.  They have to earn parole and show they are no longer a risk etc.

[Countryfox]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Locking more people up is an authoritarian response to society’s failings and is proven not to work. 

 

If people are a danger to the public they must be locked up ...   and therefore you need more space for them.  Not only that but to properly rehabilitate offenders you need space to do it.   Rehabilitation will never happen in overcrowded prisons ..   indeed there is probably more chance of people coming out the total opposite..  eg radicalised.

[Finnaldo]

7 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Sure, that's one side of their reporting. There's also a lot of opinion pieces and talk shows entirely dedicated to Trump, omitting what was really said.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trump-charlottesville-and-the-press-abc-nbc-cbs-spend-77-percent-of-evening-news-broadcasts-on-presidents-press-conference

(Take it with a pinch of salt, but I suppose the numbers at the end are correct)

Explain to me how the people polled here came to the conclusion that Trump was defending extreme right-wingers or Neo-Nazis then:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trumps-response-to-charlottesville-polls-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

 

Clearly something must've happened in the media for the people to believe the POTUSA said something that he didn't, forming a false or at least incomplete picture.

 

I very rarely get involved in debates about Trump, it's something I'm not massively interested in but it was a video I saw from a guy who tends to do his detail and be pretty in depth and thought it would be an interesting counter point.

 

Regarding your point on opinion pieces, aren't they exactly that? An opinion? Fair enough if they were espousing it as fact but an opinion piece isn't exactly a report, its usually someone famous or bigged up shouting their own view about something loudly. 

 

The poll was done by Washington Post which is a left-leaning paper. If I did a Daily Mail poll and asked 'Does Jeremy Corbyn fully support the IRA & Palestinian Terrorists' I can assure you I'd get a very similar outcome. After a far-right terror attack, a 40% of 1,014 people suggesting Trump supports the Far Right OR White Supremacists and 60% either saying no or not caring from a left-wing reader base isn't anything to write home about.

 

[urban.spaceman]

1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Greens have been showing steady signs of growth and perhaps being a bigger presence and more noticeable pressure group in Parliament and she says something as monumentally stupid as this.

 

What a fvcking idiot.

 

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

Nothing like some good, old fashioned, family-friendly sexism.  Didn't we have a female leader quite recently? Must've been the men in the cabinet who stopped her doing anything productive about the Brexit fiasco.

"Only women have the skills to overturn the biggest democratic vote in British history and because we women are homogenous or at least, I'm willing to speak for those women that aren't, we can solve the crisis caused by the last PM, whose gender escapes me for some reason. BTW it's a complete accident that all the female MPs I have suggest are all white."

[Finnaldo]

9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

The last point there is pretty much exactly what Boris just announced on stopping the automatic release of prisoners when half their sentence is served in custody.  They have to earn parole and show they are no longer a risk etc.

 

Well then that's great, it's a good step. But again it doesn't help try and solve a lot of the prerequisites to crime and (as far as I understand) doesn't truly offer a great platform to rehabilitation.

[leicsmac]

Of course Trump must condemn the white supremacist stuff that has been happening recently, but a couple of things:

 

- perhaps he might want to examine the rhetoric he sometimes comes out with and think about whether or not there is a link between that and the current environment in which these white supremacists feel able to operate in the way that they do

 

- even if it turns out there is no link whatsoever there, the fact of the matter is that right now there is a significant number of folks in the US who believe in the intimidation and marginalisation of anyone who isn't white and straight (could put guy in there too but that's a rather different debate though they often overlap) and a few of them are actively willing to use violence to that end. As the leader of the nation, Trump has the obligation to address that in a meaningful, policy-based fashion rather than just platitudes.

[MC Prussian]

1 hour ago, Finnaldo said:

 

I very rarely get involved in debates about Trump, it's something I'm not massively interested in but it was a video I saw from a guy who tends to do his detail and be pretty in depth and thought it would be an interesting counter point.

 

Regarding your point on opinion pieces, aren't they exactly that? An opinion? Fair enough if they were espousing it as fact but an opinion piece isn't exactly a report, its usually someone famous or bigged up shouting their own view about something loudly. 

 

The poll was done by Washington Post which is a left-leaning paper. If I did a Daily Mail poll and asked 'Does Jeremy Corbyn fully support the IRA & Palestinian Terrorists' I can assure you I'd get a very similar outcome. After a far-right terror attack, a 40% of 1,014 people suggesting Trump supports the Far Right OR White Supremacists and 60% either saying no or not caring from a left-wing reader base isn't anything to write home about.

 

Oh, I agree.

 

Just take into account that the media landscape in the US looks as follows:

ABC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN vs. Fox News.

That's at least four major networks favouring the American "Left" (Democrats) against one that does the opposite.

Not that the Democrats are in any true sense really a Leftist party, they are merely to the left of the Republicans - but you could say both parties serve the same cause, financial interest mostly.

But people are fed up.

Look at this graph and see for yourself how Fox has taken over and how CNN has lost in the past twelve years or so:

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/cnn-fox-news?rebelltitem=2#rebelltitem2

 

There's clearly a mismatch there on paper when it comes to creating and influencing the public debate in the US, and also consider the fact that a station such as CNN features a schedule that consists of a lot of talk shows (panels with political analysts) and whose hosts tend to go easy on Democrat candidates.

 

And I always ask myself: Who is reporting what and for what purpose (why)? Even over here, opinion pieces are starting to take over or are given way more space in comparison to factual news (what has actually happened in the world, not what one thinks of the event or what one thinks should have happened instead).

The internet has certainly paved the way by making it easier filling a "void".

I think it's wrong and I think newspapers and TV stations should put more emphasis on reporting news solely and encourage more investigative journalism, an art form seemingly lost in today's media market.

 

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Well then that's great, it's a good step. But again it doesn't help try and solve a lot of the prerequisites to crime and (as far as I understand) doesn't truly offer a great platform to rehabilitation.

Agree that we don't (just) need more cells, we need rehabilitation programs, drug programs, education, work etc. and then support when they come out.  Stupid not to.

[Finnegan]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

- perhaps he might want to examine the rhetoric he sometimes comes out with and think about whether or not there is a link between that and the current environment in which these white supremacists feel able to operate in the way that they do

 

Not really sure why you're bothering to be diplomatic, you're not a politician yourself, cut the euphemisms and just speak the truth:

 

 

Donald Trump is outright legitimising hate and openly encouraging white supremacist extremism. 

[Carl the Llama]

3 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

I wish some people on here would finally realize how fvcked up the majority of US media are.

 

There's been this constant regurgitation that Trump excused Neo-Nazis with his "good people on both sides" comment following the Charlottesville incident in 2017 - thing is, the media deliberately misquoted him or just didn't quote him correctly. He said the complete opposite:

https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark-simone/content/2019-08-04-the-biggest-lie-president-trump-didnt-call-neo-nazis-fine-people/

One big problem is that the "Unite the Right" crowd were using the Statue/Park stuff as a rather transparent ulterior motive to rally behind.  Very few in that crowd, if any, were genuinely there for the sole purpose of protecting a statue and a park's name, it was always about something bigger.  So when Mr Trump says there were very fine people in that crowd he actually is talking about the Neo-Nazis, we'd have seen Spencer et al. kick up a fuss about Trump's words of condemnation towards them if he hadn't offered that very fine people olive branch.

[leicsmac]

41 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Not really sure why you're bothering to be diplomatic, you're not a politician yourself, cut the euphemisms and just speak the truth:

 

 

Donald Trump is outright legitimising hate and openly encouraging white supremacist extremism. 

 

Oh yeah, the balance of probability certainly veers that way. But given the nature of debate in recent times I like to cover my own arse and ensure any of my arguments can't simply be dismissed as fallacious due to uncertainty by those looking for an excuse to dismiss them.

[lifted*fox]

There will always be racists, xenophobes, homophobes, etc. Looking to try and debunk honest people who call it as it is. Don't let that stop you from calling it as it is. 

 

Trump is a racist, sexist, homophobic, rapist, paedophile piece of shit who is encouraging and enabling other people to be racist pieces of shit too. That **** belongs 6ft under, the sooner the better. 

 

Anyone who still thinks he's any better than that is either stupid, blind or for some ****ed up reason feels like he's someone who deserves their excuses and protection. **** knows why. 

 

Edit: and just to add, before someone turns this into some sort of left / right shit and comes up with some wanky excuse about the Democrats being just as bad, etc. It's not about politics. Trump is just an AWFUL excuse of a human. He doesn't even deserve to be called human. Bad people like him shouldn't be running countries full stop - selfish, only interested in his own fragile ego. Much the same as Boris. So **** the political side of it. I want GOOD people running our countries with the people at heart, with climate change at heart, with equality at heart. If you don't want the same then quite frankly you're a dickhead of the highest order. 

Edited 12 August 2019 by lifted*fox

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

There will always be racists, xenophobes, homophobes, etc. Looking to try and debunk honest people who call it as it is. Don't let that stop you from calling it as it is. 

 

Trump is a racist, sexist, homophobic, rapist, paedophile piece of shit who is encouraging and enabling other people to be racist pieces of shit too. That **** belongs 6ft under, the sooner the better. 

 

Anyone who still thinks he's any better than that is either stupid, blind or for some ****ed up reason feels like he's someone who deserves their excuses and protection. **** knows why. 

 

See, this is something I don't get - there are people on here who defend him constantly and make excuses for everything he does and says, then get defensive when you call them out for it.

 

A man is judged by the company he keeps.

[Beechey]

9 hours ago, Buce said:

 

More Police, more prison places, review on sentencing, random 'stop and search', threats to ignore the constitution...

 

Britains lurch to the Right is moving apace.

Frankly worrying

[lifted*fox]

2 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Frankly worrying

 

Terrifying. Tbh. 

[Beechey]

Just now, lifted*fox said:

 

Terrifying. Tbh. 

I don't understand the rush to get more people in prison. For crimes that deserve it, sure - but we have so many non-violent offenders in prisons that surely relaxing (or mitigating their prison sentence) somehow, and then using that space for people that really deserve to be there is. better use of public money?

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Beechey said:

Frankly worrying

 

Just now, lifted*fox said:

 

Terrifying. Tbh. 

 

And completely undemocratic - this government was elected by 100,000 or so Tory members.

[Beechey]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

And completely undemocratic - this government was elected by 100,000 or so Tory members.

I have a sneaky suspicion that we'll be having an election sooner rather than later.

And what a mess it will be.

 

Christ, I've got no idea who I'd vote for either

Edited 12 August 2019 by Beechey

[lifted*fox]

Just now, Beechey said:

I don't understand the rush to get more people in prison. For crimes that deserve it, sure - but we have so many non-violent offenders in prisons that surely relaxing (or mitigating their prison sentence) somehow, and then using that space for people that really deserve to be there is. better use of public money?

 

Because putting more people in prison is the sort of shit your daily mail readers absolutely lap up in the lead up to an election. Shove another 5,000 cannabis users in prison, put those pesky knife waving blacks in prison. Why not. That'll make your average 40-60 year old feel 'safer'. 

 

I've said it time and time again, until I'm blue in the face - war on drugs, waste of time. Legalise, regulate and educate. Release people on stupid sentences for small misdemeanours like selling weed and put serious, dangerous criminals in their place (half of the tory party tbqfh). It is working the world over, we're desperately behind the times because MPs don't wanna give up their brown envelopes from the big pharma. 

 

Spend the ****ing prison money on opening youth centres, libraries, improving schooling, improving mental health centres, improving the lives of people who've given up on forgotten shitty estates. Too many people in this country don't care about prevention. If we hadn't have left people behind through austerity then we wouldn't have spiralling knife crime, spiralling food bank use, spiralling homelessness. 

 

I'm sick and ****ing tired to the back teeth of well to do middle class selfish dickheads who have a 'it's not my problem if they're poor / on drugs / homeless' attitude. Shape up and help your fellow man along and all of the problems we have disappear. Leaving people to fall behind breeds crime, breeds desperation, breeds divide. 

 

When did everyone become so lacking in compassion and selfish? 

[Buce]

30 minutes ago, Beechey said:

I have a sneaky suspicion that we'll be having an election sooner rather than later.

And what a mess it will be.

 

Christ, I've got no idea who I'd vote for either

 

I know we live in a different time and place but the background to the Spanish civil war wasn't entirely dissimilar to what's going on in the UK atm.

Edited 12 August 2019 by Buce

[Beechey]

22 minutes ago, lifted*fox said:

 

Because putting more people in prison is the sort of shit your daily mail readers absolutely lap up in the lead up to an election. Shove another 5,000 cannabis users in prison, put those pesky knife waving blacks in prison. Why not. That'll make your average 40-60 year old feel 'safer'. 

 

I've said it time and time again, until I'm blue in the face - war on drugs, waste of time. Legalise, regulate and educate. Release people on stupid sentences for small misdemeanours like selling weed and put serious, dangerous criminals in their place (half of the tory party tbqfh). It is working the world over, we're desperately behind the times because MPs don't wanna give up their brown envelopes from the big pharma. 

 

Spend the ****ing prison money on opening youth centres, libraries, improving schooling, improving mental health centres, improving the lives of people who've given up on forgotten shitty estates. Too many people in this country don't care about prevention. If we hadn't have left people behind through austerity then we wouldn't have spiralling knife crime, spiralling food bank use, spiralling homelessness. 

 

I'm sick and ****ing tired to the back teeth of well to do middle class selfish dickheads who have a 'it's not my problem if they're poor / on drugs / homeless' attitude. Shape up and help your fellow man along and all of the problems we have disappear. Leaving people to fall behind breeds crime, breeds desperation, breeds divide. 

 

When did everyone become so lacking in compassion and selfish? 

Even if you wanted to look at the problem from a cold, calculated point of view, there are studies that show that crime punishment is not a preventative measure.

Christ, even the US Department of Justice agrees.

 

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf

 

We are pushing more for health preventative measures to ease the load on the NHS, so why is the same not true for crime?

I really struggle to understand the political strategy of this country sometimes.

[the fox]

Here's an unpopular opinion: Trump isn't the worst USA president in recent times.

Edited 12 August 2019 by the fox

[the fox]

The two before him were War criminals of the highest order. But I won't put it past Trump to go to war.

[Stadt]

Adopting a more rehabilitation based approach is necessary but more police on the streets in the short-medium term is no bad thing. There's obviously a generational lag in the time it takes for community based policing to take affect. Youth centres and libraries aren't going to draw Albanian coke dealers in. 

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, the fox said:

Here's an unpopular opinion: Trump isn't the worst USA president in recent times.

 

4 hours ago, the fox said:

The two before him were War criminals of the highest order. But I won't put it past Trump to go to war.

From that specific point of view, you're absolutely right - he hasn't started a costly foreign intervention, not one involving American lives, anyway.

 

Just a shame about almost everything else from a social and scientific standpoint.